What if God Gave Us Proof?

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warpspeedpetey said:
its false to think that Jesus came in the overpowering Glory of G-d, one cannot see G-d and live. thats why he only let moses see his back.

God literally among us not shielded by an ark as in the old testament would be overpowering, think ‘raiders of the lost ark’
but instead of people melting imagine all reality dissolving

heroin addicts still go to work, especially if they are heroin dealers
in fact they will do almost anything for that heroin.🙂
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Hmm… well what if Jesus came to each and every one of us, like He did to Thomas, and showed us the wound in his side, and said He was Jesus who rose from the dead.

Would there be more believers then? Why doesn’t Jesus do that? God must have a good reason to not do that for each of us. Would that cause some harm? It wouldn’t be the same as the heroin addict, would it?
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Hmm… well what if Jesus came to each and every one of us, like He did to Thomas, and showed us the wound in his side, and said He was Jesus who rose from the dead.

Would there be more believers then? Why doesn’t Jesus do that? God must have a good reason to not do that for each of us. Would that cause some harm? It wouldn’t be the same as the heroin addict, would it?
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i doubt it, Thomas had a personal knowledge of Christ, he cried out “My Lord, and My G-D!” when shown the Precious Wounds

he was present for the events that occurred, he still doubted, the resurrection, after seeing many miracles, it was only when he personally witnessed the the existent, Risen Christ, that he understood and believed.

thats if He came as the Son of Man, as the Father, i still think reality would dissolve, buts its just a guess. 🙂

as too more believers, if there was not some accompanying metaphysical phenomena, i assume that he would be treated as most schismatics are at first, disbelieved, but from Scriptural descriptions of peoples reactions to Him, i opine he would quickly gather a following.

but why do you think there must be some good reason that G-d doesn’t do this?

i assume from the fact that He doesn’t often do it,that there is some reason,

but let me suggest that Perfect, Divine, Omniscience is in no way relatable to the poor electro-chemical calculations that we are capable of. His reasoning by that defintion is not only not of the same quality or form as ours, but rather may be an entirely different substance as well

it would be the same as the heroin addict, if G-d manifested in the form of the father in my opinion, but not a manifestation as the Son of Man

let me state that i am not a good theologian, i am only offering opinion and i would willingly submit to the magisterium , if some portion were to be in conflict with what say.
 
Hi Leela,

Well, this mystical experience, there’s lots to it. Did my bit of googling:
bodysoulandspirit.net/mystical_experiences/learn/define.shtml
themystica.com/mystica/articles/m/mystical_experiences.html
srds.co.uk/begin/mystical.htm
newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/03/shamanic-healing-shamanism
infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/
encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Mystical+experience
And there’s lots more.

Personally I easily can touch on it, drift into it, when walking in a cathedral, a mosk, in the forest, listening to for instance Mahler, looking at Mondraan, Rothko, and lots of other circumstances. But it needs a kind of letting loose, letting things happen. And I know for sure, have the experience, that if I walk with a friend in a nice mystical forest, but reasoning, exchanging arguments, doing real thinking, no mystical will appear, and then its just stuff I walk through.

Interesting in this respect is for instance the following by Jill Bolte Taylor, on brain and experience, mystical experience. It really is something:
ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

To Warpspeedpetey and Neil_Anthony,

Why this ‘if Jesus this’ and ‘if God that’… ?
To me for instance looking at a full-grown tree is proof enough: There’s more to it. It involves genious! Maybe God!
But I know this is my personal view, others think otherwise, and I respect that. What do I know? What do these others know? In the end we are all temporary visitors of and in this huge enigma, doing its thing.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
Hi Leela,

Well, this mystical experience, there’s lots to it. Did my bit of googling:
bodysoulandspirit.net/mystical_experiences/learn/define.shtml
themystica.com/mystica/articles/m/mystical_experiences.html
srds.co.uk/begin/mystical.htm
newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/03/shamanic-healing-shamanism
infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/
encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Mystical+experience
And there’s lots more.

Personally I easily can touch on it, drift into it, when walking in a cathedral, a mosk, in the forest, listening to for instance Mahler, looking at Mondraan, Rothko, and lots of other circumstances. But it needs a kind of letting loose, letting things happen. And I know for sure, have the experience, that if I walk with a friend in a nice mystical forest, but reasoning, exchanging arguments, doing real thinking, no mystical will appear, and then its just stuff I walk through.

Interesting in this respect is for instance the following by Jill Bolte Taylor, on brain and experience, mystical experience. It really is something:
ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

To Warpspeedpetey and Neil_Anthony,

Why this ‘if Jesus this’ and ‘if God that’… ?
To me for instance looking at a full-grown tree is proof enough: There’s more to it. It involves genius! Maybe God!
But I know this is my personal view, others think otherwise, and I respect that. What do I know? What do these others know? In the end we are all temporary visitors of and in this huge enigma, doing its thing.
Click to expand...
All this ‘mysticism’ presentation avoids the Big Issues: Where did You, The Universe, a Tree come from? Are no “Accidental Creations” like these. Only Creator God, of Laws of Mathematics included, can explain All.

And the Atheism, Mysticism ideas Reject the Reality of such as Miracle Cures Today, Not just in Bible. Impossible Cures, So documented by Massive studies by Atheist and believer Doctors. My Mother Had one miracle healing year before I was born. And she was not believer. Was documented in astonished manner by Doctors.
Are thousands of such Impossible Miracles, Highly Documented, at Fatima, Lourdes, And individuals everywhere. None of these were not Physical Miracles/Cures. Are massively documented miracles, Like the Shroud of Turin, not another proof of God? And how Did the Universe come from ‘nothing’? Not The Creator? Atheists have to deny Reality.
And isn’t the “Mysticism” at Bach, a Cathedral, etc better described at Awesome, Heavenly, Prima, indescribable? :confused: :twocents: 🤓 Mysticism is too weak, generalized nomenclature. As is ‘spirituality’. Weak words don’t speak. Are attempts to avoid reality.
 
To Warpspeedpetey and Neil_Anthony,
Click to expand...
Why this ‘if Jesus this’ and ‘if God that’… ?
To me for instance looking at a full-grown tree is proof enough: There’s more to it. It involves genious! Maybe God!
But I know this is my personal view, others think otherwise, and I respect that. What do I know? What do these others know? In the end we are all temporary visitors of and in this huge enigma, doing its thing.
Click to expand...
because we are discussing theoretical theology, but we are both theists as far as i know:) 🙂
 
Sailka and Warpspeedpetey,

Well, I think I,m more a moderate, sometimes agnostic, sometimes enthusiastic believer. And I’m very well aware of the fact that the world is full of other-minded deviant thinkers. And most of the time I respect their positions.

Also I’m very well aware of the complexity concerning religion. And I think Leela and I just have made an attempt to bring in view this complexity.

Consult a nearby priest and let him read all the mail above. I’m sure he will agree with me religion is a complex subject. And if it means anything to you, read closely what the pope said at Regensburg, and understand the professor also very much is aware of the complexity of this world being there and us speaking on it.

And regarding atheists… They have their position, and they have a right to have their position. And as far as their arguments concerned, it very well is possible to give counter-arguments. And if they don’t convince, well, no big deal.

Hindu’s, Buddhists, Confucianists, Animists, Theists, Atheists, and so on, we all inhabit this tiny planet, and one way or another we have to bear and tolerate each other, in trying to maintain or search for a generally acceptable quality of life.

And with respect to this latter it is very interesting to view this interview with Brian Swimme I presented above. Because whatever we think on reality, all the time there is this reality itself, trying to tell its story, a story we have to listen to, because we are part of it, live in it, and are depended upon it for our very existence.
 
**This word one hears quite often:
“I think I’m more a moderate, sometimes agnostic believer.”
And let’s be honest: Who of us did not once in his lifetime…

But how should it be possible, how could one be a “moderate” believer – not to speak even of an “agnostic” believer. How does one manage to believe “moderate” and keep on holding this balance between believe and disbelieve?
Could one e.g. say: “In a moderate way I believe I have a father/son?!”
To believe something in a moderate way, means not to make ones mind up if one believes in God or not. In fact, one doubts in a state between theism and atheism.

However; this is known ever since people believed in God. Saint Paul warned us, not to judge those, who ffight with daubts in Romans 14:1
The Weak and the Strong
“Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.”

Still, daubters ought to be aware, that this is an ill form of unsureness, that agrees to anything, as “yes there is God”, just like “no there’s no God” but just as well as “ok – there might be a God”. The living synonym for agnostic; - unbelieving irreligious, faithless, dubious, heathen, infidel, atheistic. They can’t in permanent doubt, make up their minds to either, so they are longing to believe after all.
Doubt is in consequence; disbelieve in it’s clear form. Enthusiastic believe in that case is wishful thinking, covered behind barriers set up by oneself.

It’s prayers only, that can heal off that most uncomfortable and ill state.

**
 
Again,
The difference between science and religion.
Science concerns the researchable (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.)
Within science we can prove or disprove that for instance metal expands when heated.
But science cannot prove or disprove the existence of for instance God.
Because God is something that is not part of what is researchable.
Therefore God is subject of opinion, belief, faith, attempts of reasoning.
And me, as humble human, I can regarding all this, experience doubt or moments of truth, and then again doubt, and then maybe insight, or touching on that, and…
Truth is not for me. I don’t have a Gods-eye-view on reality.
Because I’m part of it, looking at it with my own subjective and limited mind.
And You might experience Truth personally, no doubt, no questioning God whatsoever.
But this is personal, with lots of deviant thinking around.
And with no possibility whatsoever, in turning them into your Truth.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
Again,
The difference between science and religion.
Science concerns the researchable (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.)
Within science we can prove or disprove that for instance metal expands when heated.
But science cannot prove or disprove the existence of for instance God.
Because God is something that is not part of what is researchable.
Therefore God is subject of opinion, belief, faith, attempts of reasoning.
And me, as humble human, I can regarding all this, experience doubt or moments of truth, and then again doubt, and then maybe insight, or touching on that, and…
Truth is not for me. I don’t have a Gods-eye-view on reality.
Because I’m part of it, looking at it with my own subjective and limited mind.
And You might experience Truth personally, no doubt, no questioning God whatsoever.
But this is personal, with lots of deviant thinking around.
And with no possibility whatsoever, in turning them into your Truth.
Click to expand...
Science proves, explains facts; the Church the Reasons For, and Morality.

But Science has investigated the Evidentiatiary Facts/reality everywhere. Know that the Shroud of Turin is The Most investigated single item on Earth? And scientists have Proven during the last 8 years that the No Paint on it Shroud of Turin is the First negative ‘picture’ of Our Lord, exactly as the Bible and History decribe. Scientists have Proven The Shroud as Authentic, Imppossible to duplicate.
Same for the discovery, (Belgian Priest/Scientist Georges Lemaitre, 1927 Big Bang Theory) Proven by all evidence of where the Incredible Universe came from, 13.8 Billion Years ago: From Nothing, essentially. Perhaps proof of Creator God? Just maybe? Any other ideas? Scientists have found None.
And The Church has great respect for All Faiths, Every Person. More so than any large organization on Earth. Everryone respected, just not the wrongs that some teach. The Church has the definitive answers to all problems, and all moral issues/attacks. Humbly so, as one would expect of Our Lord’s Church. Humility is a great Blessing, Benedict. :highprayer: :bible1:

And Full Truth is described as God; On Earth, God says Truth is In His Church: 1 Timothy 3:15. The Church began Science in the Western World,. Middle Ages, to Discover what, why Earthly way. Most great scientists of late middle ages were Catholic Priests/Deacons, which media rarelly mentions.
 
Doesn’t everything, including Science, prove Creator God? Many Atheist scientists becoming Creator Theists, the more that is being discoveed.
The ‘science contradicts, disproves God/religion’ is a Proven false Hype Job by some authors, Fundies who do not know science. :hmmm:
 
**God is NOT subject of opinion, belief, faith, attempts of reasoning.
God is a lot more reality than we and everything we think to be real.

We don’t even know much about our own soul which is more real than we for a start. But all the same we dare to mention God as “subject of opinion”?!

Who are we, to instead of simply believe in God as we are taught by Jesus; to enunciate theories that make God “subject of opinion, belief, faith, attempts of reasoning”

GOD IS! And that’s all there to it.
As God said to Moses in Exodus 3:14:
"I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ "
God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers - the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
**
 
Well again,
Science cannot say anything on the yes or no existence of God.
Therefore the existence of God is subject of our opinion, belief, faith, attempts of reasoning.
This is maybe hard to accept, but just look up on the internet what science actually is.
And with this I’m not saying I’m an atheist or agnostic or whatever. I express my limitation in determining for sure what reality is and is all about.
And of course, meanwhile to me what science delivers me as data on the story of the universe, has already convinced me there’s more to it then just matter moving about.
Already our very existence amazes me every day.
But I know there’s a whole world out there, of lots and lots of other and deviant thinkers, with different opinions on God and purpose of reality and so on.
And I know I cannot make them think my way, I can try though, and even succeed in establishing a mind-shift once in a while.
But that’s it. Plurality in world view is a very robust phenomenon.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
Well again,
Science cannot say anything on the yes or no existence of God.
Therefore the existence of God is subject of our opinion, belief, faith, attempts of reasoning.
This is maybe hard to accept, but just look up on the internet what science actually is.
And with this I’m not saying I’m an atheist or agnostic or whatever. I express my limitation in determining for sure what reality is and is all about.
And of course, meanwhile to me what science delivers me as data on the story of the universe, has already convinced me there’s more to it then just matter moving about.
Already our very existence amazes me every day.
But I know there’s a whole world out there, of lots and lots of other and deviant thinkers, with different opinions on God and purpose of reality and so on.
And I know I cannot make them think my way, I can try though, and even succeed in establishing a mind-shift once in a while.
But that’s it. Plurality in world view is a very robust phenomenon.
Click to expand...
Have we noticed that Science as such does not comment on Religion, nor Catholic Church on Science, except when they step on each others Territories in conflict? Is Rare. They are Different Fields, each being the reasoning justification/explanation of the other.
 
Sailka,
Do you know what science is telling us these days? As fact, factual?
13.7 billion years ago there was a release of a huge amount of energy, quickly turning into light, particles/waves, turning into stars and galaxies…
These particles/waves can and do appear and disappear, split and integrate, go back in time, and generally integrate into more complex forms of motion/vibration, into even more complex forms of motion/vibration, atoms, molecules, and act as being part of a field, a whole, a thought maybe.
And zooming in on this tiny piece of dust we call planet Earth, we see that these strange behaving particles/waves can turn into organisms and biotopes and even into this conglomorate of cultures advancing towards a worldculture.
And all this takes place against the ever present stream of decay.
And all this develops within increasing amounts of possibilities for development, for growth in complexity – and quality, and life, and consciousness. That is to say: within the limited stretch of time, these mere 13.7 billion of years, it all the time is making the right choices, for development towards the world we see right now.
And all this takes place according to a very fine-tuned set of laws and constants.
What makes it all a very complex, a very very very complex, developing, growing, and expanding, vibration.
And with all this there’s also this dark energy and matter we know nothing about, not even that it is dark energy and matter, but that must be there, presenting the largest part of this universe, and explaining the shape of this universe.
Speaking of miracles, I don’t know of a greater miracle than the very existence of this universe.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
I don’t know of a greater miracle than the very existence of this universe.
Click to expand...
Oh - any child can give you the solution
or you can read all about it in
Genesis 1:1
The Beginning
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

It’s all that simple!

Any further question?
:coffeeread:
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
Oh - any child can give you the solution
or you can read all about it in
Genesis 1:1
The Beginning
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

It’s all that simple!

Any further question?
:coffeeread:
Click to expand...
Science has proven how “Much Bigger” God’s Creation was: The Entire Universe, from Nothing (“something smaller than an atom”, in scientific language)
, 13.8 Billion uears ago, in The Big Bang, Fr/Dr Georges Lemaitre (sic) Belgian Priest/Scientist 1927:highprayer: . Proven In Science, during last 2 decades, unquestionably.
Any one left Not believing in Creator God?
 
Sailka said:
Science has proven how “Much Bigger” God’s Creation was: The Entire Universe, from Nothing (“something smaller than an atom”, in scientific language)
, 13.8 Billion uears ago, in The Big Bang, Fr/Dr Georges Lemaitre (sic) Belgian Priest/Scientist 1927:highprayer: . Proven In Science, during last 2 decades, unquestionably.
Any one left Not believing in Creator God?
Click to expand...
Me.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
Sailka,
Do you know what science is telling us these days? As fact, factual?
13.7 billion years ago there was a release of a huge amount of energy, quickly turning into light, particles/waves, turning into stars and galaxies…
These particles/waves can and do appear and disappear, split and integrate, go back in time, and generally integrate into more complex forms of motion/vibration, into even more complex forms of motion/vibration, atoms, molecules, and act as being part of a field, a whole, a thought maybe.
And zooming in on this tiny piece of dust we call planet Earth, we see that these strange behaving particles/waves can turn into organisms and biotopes and even into this conglomorate of cultures advancing towards a worldculture.
And all this takes place against the ever present stream of decay.
And all this develops within increasing amounts of possibilities for development, for growth in complexity – and quality, and life, and consciousness. That is to say: within the limited stretch of time, these mere 13.7 billion of years, it all the time is making the right choices, for development towards the world we see right now.
And all this takes place according to a very fine-tuned set of laws and constants.
What makes it all a very complex, a very very very complex, developing, growing, and expanding, vibration.
And with all this there’s also this dark energy and matter we know nothing about, not even that it is dark energy and matter, but that must be there, presenting the largest part of this universe, and explaining the shape of this universe.
Speaking of miracles, I don’t know of a greater miracle than the very existence of this universe.
Click to expand...
Good point.

JD
 
cerad said:
Me.
Click to expand...
Just 2 Science only Tips; Search The Shroud of Turin, and The Big Bang sience sites, linked in earlier posts this site.
How do You figure the Universe ‘just happened’? Don’t forget the Stars and all atoms in it, and Electric Charges, Laws of Gravity, and All the details?
 
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