What if God Gave Us Proof?

[Sailka]

Sailka,
Do you know what science is telling us these days? As fact, factual?
13.7 billion years ago there was a release of a huge amount of energy, quickly turning into light, particles/waves, turning into stars and galaxies…
These particles/waves can and do appear and disappear, split and integrate, go back in time, and generally integrate into more complex forms of motion/vibration, into even more complex forms of motion/vibration, atoms, molecules, and act as being part of a field, a whole, a thought maybe.
And zooming in on this tiny piece of dust we call planet Earth, we see that these strange behaving particles/waves can turn into organisms and biotopes and even into this conglomorate of cultures advancing towards a worldculture.
And all this takes place against the ever present stream of decay.
And all this develops within increasing amounts of possibilities for development, for growth in complexity – and quality, and life, and consciousness. That is to say: within the limited stretch of time, these mere 13.7 billion of years, it all the time is making the right choices, for development towards the world we see right now.
And all this takes place according to a very fine-tuned set of laws and constants.
What makes it all a very complex, a very very very complex, developing, growing, and expanding, vibration.
And with all this there’s also this dark energy and matter we know nothing about, not even that it is dark energy and matter, but that must be there, presenting the largest part of this universe, and explaining the shape of this universe.
Speaking of miracles, I don’t know of a greater miracle than the very existence of this universe.

Don’t forget a detail: Where the Universe came from: Nothing! (Scientists can only describe it as “something smaller than an atom”) Scientists will always be trying to figure out wherefrom everything came. The Only answer is The Creator God, who ‘began’ a Lot of Laws: The Laws of Mathematics, gravity, physics, electric charges…so that everything works, including us.

 

[Benedict_Broere]

Sailka,
We don’t know whether the world came about from nothing.
14 billion years ago our universe wasn’t there, but we don’t know what was there before our universe. (At least when you mean this by speaking of nothing.)
And God, this creator-God, we don’t know exactly what it is. Because we cannot think beyond this reality we are part of.

And Bruno, referring to an age-old myth doesn’t help.
God created the heavens and the Earth ???
‘God’, maybe something creative, intelligent, powerful, created Mathematics, the Laws of Newton, the Laws of Thermodynamics, the Laws of Maxwell, the Table of Elements, Quantum theory, Relativity-theory, Evolution, DNA, and so on, and made all this operational, within an inherent chaotic process, but leading it to ever more order and complexity and finally life and consciousness. And this probably will go on and on into the future, until this whole universe is a radiant expression of life (Pierre Teilhard de Chardin calls this Omega).

JDaniel
Thanks.
What also might be added is the fact that this universe shows new proportions on each new level of complexity. This is why for instance vortexes and waves in water can’t be explained out of the properties of Oxygen and Hydrogen. One uses the word ‘emergence’ in this respect. And these days also for instance ‘mind’ and ‘life’ are considered to be expressions of emergence.

But what do you think, will all this convince someone like Richard Dawkins?
I doubt it. Because its also very much psychological.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

And Bruno, referring to an age-old myth doesn’t help.
God created the heavens and the Earth ???

**Well Dear

did it ever occur to you, that not the Bible, but you are wrong?

What makes you so sure, your world is more valuable than that of the Bible?

Remember - the Old Testament including Genesis, was God’s Bible, as Jesus acted and taught out of this Bible Old Testament. If there was any mistake, Jesus would have told us.

It’s really surprising, in what and eager vigour you fight parts of the Bible.
What’s your intention about it?
Teach us to know better than Jesus did?

Love
Bruno**

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Sailka,
We don’t know whether the world came about from nothing.
14 billion years ago our universe wasn’t there, but we don’t know what was there before our universe. (At least when you mean this by speaking of nothing.)
And God, this creator-God, we don’t know exactly what it is. Because we cannot think beyond this reality we are part of.

And Bruno, referring to an age-old myth doesn’t help.
God created the heavens and the Earth ???
‘God’, maybe something creative, intelligent, powerful, created Mathematics, the Laws of Newton, the Laws of Thermodynamics, the Laws of Maxwell, the Table of Elements, Quantum theory, Relativity-theory, Evolution, DNA, and so on, and made all this operational, within an inherent chaotic process, but leading it to ever more order and complexity and finally life and consciousness. And this probably will go on and on into the future, until this whole universe is a radiant expression of life (Pierre Teilhard de Chardin calls this Omega).

JDaniel
Thanks.
What also might be added is the fact that this universe shows new proportions on each new level of complexity. This is why for instance vortexes and waves in water can’t be explained out of the properties of Oxygen and Hydrogen. One uses the word ‘emergence’ in this respect. And these days also for instance ‘mind’ and ‘life’ are considered to be expressions of emergence.

But what do you think, will all this convince someone like Richard Dawkins?
I doubt it. Because its also very much psychological.

please see the thread ‘the universe exists therefore…’ for arguments on first cause

 

[Benedict_Broere]

You are doing a good job Bruno, in making me think you are some kind of borderline idiot, terrorising the internet with his stupidity.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

You are doing a good job Bruno, in making me think you are some kind of borderline idiot, terrorising the internet with his stupidity.

if you have an argument to make, please do so. name calling only implies that you have no further arguments left with which to debate.

 

[Benedict_Broere]

Discussion with fundamentalism is clairly not possible.

 

[Benedict_Broere]

Especially when it presents itself as: misinterpreting, insulting and argument-ignoring.
Or maybe all this goes side by side naturally.

 

[cerad]

Just 2 Science only Tips; Search The Shroud of Turin, and The Big Bang sience sites, linked in earlier posts this site.
How do You figure the Universe ‘just happened’? Don’t forget the Stars and all atoms in it, and Electric Charges, Laws of Gravity, and All the details?

I looked for sience sites but could only find ones that discussed science. Is that what you meant?

As far as the Big Bang goes, scientists are working on trying to figure out how to explain what “came before it”. I’ll give them a few thousand years to work on it before giving up. Until then I’m squarely in the “I don’t know” camp.

And just out of curiosity, how does “goddidit” actually explain electrical charges?

 

[Scholastic17]

It’s obvious that God exists. We can’t even say “God,” and understanding what the term means, deny that He is.

“What-is is not.”

That doesn’t even make sense.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I looked for sience sites but could only find ones that discussed science. Is that what you meant?

As far as the Big Bang goes, scientists are working on trying to figure out how to explain what “came before it”. I’ll give them a few thousand years to work on it before giving up. Until then I’m squarely in the “I don’t know” camp.

And just out of curiosity, how does “goddidit” actually explain electrical charges?

we are discussing the metaphysics of the big bang at the 'a universe exists therefore G-d must exist, you might be interested in helping refine the arguments concerning a pre-big bang infinity

 

[Sailka]

Sailka,
We don’t know whether the world came about from nothing.
14 billion years ago our universe wasn’t there, but we don’t know what was there before our universe. (At least when you mean this by speaking of nothing.)
And God, this creator-God, we don’t know exactly what it is. Because we cannot think beyond this reality we are part of.

And Bruno, referring to an age-old myth doesn’t help.
God created the heavens and the Earth ???
‘God’, maybe something creative, intelligent, powerful, created Mathematics, the Laws of Newton, the Laws of Thermodynamics, the Laws of Maxwell, the Table of Elements, Quantum theory, Relativity-theory, Evolution, DNA, and so on, and made all this operational, within an inherent chaotic process, but leading it to ever more order and complexity and finally life and consciousness. And this probably will go on and on into the future, until this whole universe is a radiant expression of life (Pierre Teilhard de Chardin calls this Omega).

JDaniel
Thanks.
What also might be added is the fact that this universe shows new proportions on each new level of complexity. This is why for instance vortexes and waves in water can’t be explained out of the properties of Oxygen and Hydrogen. One uses the word ‘emergence’ in this respect. And these days also for instance ‘mind’ and ‘life’ are considered to be expressions of emergence.

But what do you think, will all this convince someone like Richard Dawkins?
I doubt it. Because its also very much psychological.

One “Source” “Created” ll is the conclusion of all scientific discoveries. Fr LeMaitre caculated that the Universe/Everything expanding exponentially in 1927.

Some people like Richard Dawkins are too into themselves to look at Facts, think, consider Why, How, use reason. And there are laws of Mathematics for almost everything, including wave patterns and Vortexes. Everything so Ordered, abiding to Natural Laws. Only greatest Mastermind could have caused all, from nothing.

Science conclusively Proves the Universe from nothing by knowing the massive expansion rate of the Universe, and calculating back to the Big Bang time. Only during last 2 decades was it determined the universe is expanding so Rapidly that possibility of having imploded first is Impossible. Mathematics is key part of Astronomy.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**I wonder, why you Benedict Broere, (and Leela and the rest of you daubters) actually take such a lot of time fighting for your disbeliev. Fighting against believe and faith in God? Fighting against God Himself? But why if its of no matter to you?

It’s the same world-wide; not only here. Atheists, doubters in God, nonbelievers, irreligious, free thinkers or whatever they might call themselves, they all in a subversive way, never find peace. This is clearly proved, when one notes, how strongly they fight for “their truth” – the inexistence of God. That seems very “funny” to those who OWN believe.

If disbelievers would find peace to themselves, they simply would let it be and never care a dime about Christian talk and believe, as it wouldn’t touch them. But is really does disturb them, for they of course can’t be sure at all.
They in fact, simply don’t know.

And what about the fact, that party openminded atheists allow themselves the continuous interrogation “what if it’s true after all? What will happen to me then???”

Of course they don’t allow themselves to commit that; neither to anybody, not even to themselves.
But:
When whoever is uncertain and absolutely unsure about what so ever in his life, he would react in an way, that the worse possible consequence won’t lead to damage or even death.
Nonbelievers for a reason that’s most unreasonable, react on the contrary extremely irrational: They obstinately predicate THERE IS NO GOD.

In so many forums I met this attitude, and Christians might write a lifetime to convince disbelievers of the fact, that this is a terribly illiberal way of thinking. All in vain. So, years ago I stopped fighting with them, and let them fight with me – their short arms never reach me

Yes to the very many thousands Benedict Broeres and Leelas, might do on calling believers like me “fundamentalists” and you are right. I am Christian Fundamentalist, and you will go on refusing to understand why.

Let me tell you, that we know all “arguments” of “science” against the creating and well keeping God, who promised to be with us all times until the end of time. Your arguments keep pouring down at believers ever since the human race knew about God. But we also experienced faith and believe in a way, that we not just believe or “think” things are such as Jesus told us, but where strongly touched by this believe – no – by God Himself. So, this believe is in fact felt convincement, and not al all mere hypothesis.

The worse that could happen to a Christian is not at all e.g. disbelievers exited fight against believe, neither illness nor loss of beloved, not even loss of existence and all they had. Worse would be, deadly worse; the loss of God by daubts.

So instead of fighting against windmills, disbelievers ought to fight against their narrow mindedness and allow themselves to open their mind to God – which means to them; to the POSSIBILITY THAT GOD MIGHT BE REAL. (Believe Jesus and any Christian of that last 2,000 years: He is!)

If one closes his mind to all he can’t prove, he’ll stay a poor thing indeed. But even then he will see - after his death. What then <?
**

 

[Leela]

**I wonder, why you Benedict Broere, (and Leela and the rest of you daubters) actually take such a lot of time fighting for your disbeliev. Fighting against believe and faith in God? Fighting against God Himself? But why if its of no matter to you?

It’s the same world-wide; not only here. Atheists, doubters in God, nonbelievers, irreligious, free thinkers or whatever they might call themselves, they all in a subversive way, never find peace. This is clearly proved, when one notes, how strongly they fight for “their truth” – the inexistence of God. That seems very “funny” to those who OWN believe.

If disbelievers would find peace to themselves, they simply would let it be and never care a dime about Christian talk and believe, as it wouldn’t touch them. But is really does disturb them, for they of course can’t be sure at all.
They in fact, simply don’t know.

And what about the fact, that party openminded atheists allow themselves the continuous interrogation “what if it’s true after all? What will happen to me then???”
**

I lose just as much sleep over whether Christianity is true and I will be damned for my disbelief as you do over whether Islam is true and you will be damned for your disbelief, which is to say, none at all.

Best,
Leela

 

[George14]

I heard one question a child would put to God if he had the chance:

“God, when you made a giraffe, was that a accident or did you do it on purpose?”

There ARE no stupid questions, period.

There are peepul who stupidly think there are stoopid questions.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

**I wonder, why you **** and the rest of you daubters) actually take such a lot of time fighting for your disbeliev. Fighting against believe and faith in God? Fighting against God Himself? But why if its of no matter to you?

It’s the same world-wide; not only here. Atheists, doubters in God, nonbelievers, irreligious, free thinkers or whatever they might call themselves, they all in a subversive way, never find peace. This is clearly proved, when one notes, how strongly they fight for “their truth” – the inexistence of God. That seems very “funny” to those who OWN believe. **

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**“I smell hidden agendas”
that’s what many friends of mine told me too about nonbelievers. And that’s how it is
The hidden agenda in this cases – and I don’t point at anyone; it’s the same with everybody in the club of nonbelievers, is quite obvious:

They are unable to believe things they can’t see, touch, or the only thing they believe in, “science”, can not prove. So, they say; it’s not true. It can’t be true, for it’s not proven.

Remember; just few generations ago, nobody believed, that anyone could speak in Australia or even outer space, whilst we see and hear him live talking in Yew York, London, Hong Kong, worldwide. Neither would they have believed that even a car would go without horses, not too long ago. Only few hundred years ago, they didn’t even believe the world’s a ball.
Though all of them where eager to hear convincing news that went is this direction with very many things, like “there’s no better weapon than the stone ax, then the copper dagger came, the bronze-sword, then iron came, then steel.
Had we told a farmer in mediaeval times, a field of 1 acre might give bread for a whole family one year, he’d thought we are crazy.

So; the hidden agenda in persisting in THERE IS NO GOD is: To finally find an argument they can hold on to ultimately find God. The offensive pronouncement THERE IS NO GOD is wrapped in a “is there?” and “please give me a hint so I too find God.
Oh how deliriously happy they’d be, if they suddenly would trip over some prove, that fits into their schema “believe what you can grab”. They simply lack this freedom of mind, to accept as true what they can’t see or at least they are told science says it’s true – however they are longing to.

No! There are a million reasons God doesn’t provide that prove they might ask for hardly.
God did all for us and more. Least we can do is believe, before we even get all the rest. That’s what Jesus re-emphasised over and over again. Believe and have eternal live in Gods Kingdom, or don’t believe and earn eternal death. Reasons enough for it, are described in the Bible. Let the Bible be not a book of science, but the very personal word of God – especially for you. When then you will not do as they did in Acts 7,57 where they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him (Stephanus wo told them about God – and it happened alike to others as e.g. St. Peter). If you hear and read open minded and open hearted, you might be touched by God and suddenly you see clear.

Don’t ecpect this as a miracel to happen to you, before you pay God believe. Then it won’t happen. But then you will see one day – when it’s too late. That’s all there’s to it. No sideway.
**

 

[Sailka]

I lose just as much sleep over whether Christianity is true and I will be damned for my disbelief as you do over whether Islam is true and you will be damned for your disbelief, which is to say, none at all.

Best,
Leela

Only we ourselves must Choose to be damned. That is what Good Religion, Good God Teach. And The Catholic Church and God are all Positive, Love. That is why too many hate.
But we welcome your ideas, Leela, Boehmer, Jak4. It is only by Thinking things out that we can all grow in Wisdom, Hope, Discovery.
And Bruno, The Greatest attackers of God, the Church have become the greatest experts, leaders on it, after discovering Truth: St Peter, Archbishop Newman, Dr Scott Hahn, etc, etc.

And the more real Truth we find, the more soundly we sleep.

 

[Sailka]

I heard one question a child would put to God if he had the chance:

“God, when you made a giraffe, was that a accident or did you do it on purpose?”

There ARE no stupid questions, period.

There are peepul who stupidly think there are stoopid questions.

Exact-ly. And kids ask the Best Questions.

 

[Hislittlelady]

For me, the strongest argument of a non-believer is to ask “Why doesn’t God give us some solid proof that He exists?”

For example, every night God could write on the sky for a few minutes:

Good night
- God

There must be some great reasons why God doesn’t do this. I can think of a couple of reasons but I’m looking for more. Also I’m interested in doing more reading on this question if anyone can recommend a book or article to help.

Some questions/reasons:

1. If God did that, what language would it be in?
2. If God did that, would it be scientifically explanable? If not, how would science approach it? Would it completely mess up science and keep us from progressing?
3. How would people respond emotionally to God being so close to us? Would we become lazy and stop trying to pray to God, and instead just watch for the notes in the sky? Would we then complain that if God really existed, he would make the notes more meaningful?

Any other reasons?

I cannot imagine one single proof that God could give us that man would not find fault with. I’ve wracked my brains and there is just no proof we can have that we would not dispute or try to disprove.

I believe that’s just built into the nature of man since the fall of Adam and Eve. Maybe part of our punishment too. We have to work hard to have faith and that in itself is exhausting, at least for me it is. With my lips I say “I believe, I believe.” But what is my heart really saying. Do the doubts lurk therein? Yes! I’m ashamed of myself and pray about and am forever asking for that special gift of faith. I read every kind of book of Catholicism, and about Jesus and Mary, and still the doubts persist.

They tell us that through faith and trust in God we can know for certain our loved ones are in heaven. How is that so? My faith is not big enough. I want proof. Again, what proof can there be that I would accept. Maybe if Jesus appeared to me, and with no sign that it were a demonic apparition, well, that could possibly be a proof of sorts. But would my mind interpret the whole vision as an halucination or lucid dream?

So there we have it. I can’t think of one single thing God could do to prove Himself to us. A long, hard journey, but we’ll perservere if we continue on our quest. I’m certain that at the moment of our death we will see God up close and personal and there will be our proof.

Blessings and peace to all