What if Jesus was just a man?

[chaz0426]

I am a faithful catholic born and raised. But I often wonder is there any historical support/proof outside of the bible that Jesus did exist. I know that he existed and much of the world accepts that but I’m curious how much do we know about him outside of scripture?

I hear so many accusations that the catholic church “labled” jesus divine and God a few centuries after he died. I know that scripture says he is God and is divine but how do I know the church did not put that in there?

Going on top of that, how do you think Christianity would survive if they ever found Jesus’s grave or tomb with him in it? Or if he was proven to just be a man? If he was then he certainly was the most perfect man to exist. Could Christianity still live on following jesus’s morals?

I don’t believe any of this but a thought came across earlier just what if this were to happen. I often think scientifically and I realize that most of what we believe is faith based on scripture and there is really is no other evidence. That is what is great about our faith and how strong it is.

But it makes me ill to think if this was all an illusion too. So many atheists I run into claim this and I know in my heart it isn’t but just from a what if stand point if it were. How would you cope with that as a Catholic or a Christian?

 

[Sam_Maloney]

The contemporary histories of Christ’s life are called ‘The Gospels’. There is good evidence that these were written by eyewitnesses to Christ’s life, or at most at a single remove, people who knew people who knew Christ.

If you take any of his contemporaries in Jewish society, and toss out the four most prominent histories about them, you’d end up with absolutely nothing.

In essence then: it isn’t surprising we know so little about Christ, it is AMAZING we know so much.

In a chain stretching back to Christ, we can see that the very early Christian community accepted the story of Christ’s divinity because they chose to die horrible deaths [lions and worse] rather than worship the official gods of the Empire. We have this from many ‘secular’ Roman sources.

We know that the first-- what was it, 30?-- popes were all martyred, as well. Their deaths are recorded in many histories, not just ‘Catholic’ ones.

We know that the apostles beleived Christ to be Divine, and the looked for Messiah because 11 of the 12 were martyred for their faith. They wouldn’t have died for a lie.

We know this because so many of their friends recorded it in letters, cherished and preserved by the early Church.

People who need more would probably never be satisfied.

I can accept those who say Christ and his followers were mistaken, misguided, even insane. But those who doubt his existence or pretend the story of the early Church was hijacked by the evil Popes are simply refusing to look at the evidence before their faces.

 

[Trishie]

Gary Habermas, The Verdict of History, 1988. reveals thirty-nine ancient sources documenting the life of Jesus, including 100 facts concerning Jesus’ life, crucifixion, and resurrection.Twenty four of those sources, including seven secular and several early creeds of the church, concern the divine nature of Jesus. Hence, the doctrine that Jesus is God was present in the earliest church.

Outside the Bible, Jesus is also mentioned by his near-contemporaries. Secular writers (many hostile) point to Jesus’ existence, including the Roman writings of Tacitus, Seutonius, Thallus and Pliny, and Jewish writings of Josephus and the Talmud.
Suetonius (biographer of the first twelve Roman emperors) referred to Jesus and Christians in A.D. 120. Pliny the Younger, a governor of Bithinia, wrote to the Emperor Trajan in A.D. 112 asking advice on what to do with Christians. He claimed that they “were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god…”

 

[Nino]

Tom Jefferson who was not a Christian assemble just such a booklet…Good deeds accomplished by Jesus…with no hint of any devine background in this wonderful strange person .Only thing is,Pilate did not find Jesus guilty of anything it was the cowardly PC clergy (mmm ) who changed their accusations from being a messiah to being anti-dictatorship.a revolutionary without an army yet? Since tho Jesus did ask more then once…'Whom do you think I am?" and Peter answered “You are the Christ etc” and Jesus did not corrrect him like…“no not quite,just a social worker…” so if Jesus was not the Son of God he was an evil man who helped put millions to death later since they believed in HIm and were considered enemies of the pagan state. I would like to have a good ole time here also…but I dunno,a man gets whupped,starved,nailed to a cross beam,stabbed in the chest near the heart,left up for all to see for some 3 hours…sealed up in an air-tight tomb and pronouced dead by professional executioners…tomb guarded by both Roman guards and religious for three days…then puff…gone…massive rock rolled back and the 16 guards dumbfounded…one has to realize for important guard duty assingments the Romans assigned some 16 troopers to the task…each in rows of 4…the first sitting,the second kneeling,the third standing and the fourth resting…an intrudder would have found it impossible to get to the tomb opening without stepping on a guards,face,neck,body etc…the above formation is then switched every 4 hours…no sane person dies for a lie knowing its a lie…I stand with the millions who either saw Jesus after He was dead and those who fought tyranny in His name…and the fight continues…amen and amen…Nino

 

[Johndigger]

It is interesting to look at the Apostles.

They were a scared bunch of blokes that had given up when Jesus died.

Yet, something happenned that inspired 11 out of 12 of them to die .

If the disciples knew that Jesus was dead why did they die for the lie that he lives? They had nothing to gain, not money, fame, popularity? Only suffering.

It’s rare for a man to die for something he believes in. It’s almost beyond belief for a man to die for somethings he knows to be false.

Therefore, it indicates to me that something must have happenned to inspire these cowardly blokes to die. The most reasonable conclusion is that Jesus did, in fact, rise from the dead.

If Jesus can rise from the dead after being brutally killed, by his own power. How can he be “just a man?”

In Christ,

JD

 

[CapIV]

Both Josephus and Tacitus are non Christian sources that mention Jesus.

We know that Christ’s followers thought of him as God because it is in the scriptures. The scriptures were written in the first century, by his followers. There is no validity to the claim that people thought Christ was just a man and the Church changed it hundreds of years later. Seriously, in historical circles, Dan Brown is a laughing stock.

 

[JRKH]

It is interesting to look at the Apostles.

They were a scared bunch of blokes that had given up when Jesus died.

Yet, something happenned that inspired 11 out of 12 of them to die .

If the disciples knew that Jesus was dead why did they die for the lie that he lives? They had nothing to gain, not money, fame, popularity? Only suffering.

It’s rare for a man to die for something he believes in. It’s almost beyond belief for a man to die for somethings he knows to be false.

Therefore, it indicates to me that something must have happenned to inspire these cowardly blokes to die. The most reasonable conclusion is that Jesus did, in fact, rise from the dead.

If Jesus can rise from the dead after being brutally killed, by his own power. How can he be “just a man?”

In Christ,

JD

I believe this is a really great answer to the OP’s basic question. If “Jesus of Nazareth” was some sort of hoax, why would so many people be willing to die horrible, painful and torturous deaths just to perpetuate the hoax? Particularly when what they were teaching went against the grain of History and what people were looking for at the time.

If the whole Jesus/Christian thing was a hoax, it would most likely have turned very quickly into a revolution agianst Rome for that is what most people were really hoping for. I would have made no human sense to try and build up a “Love Thy Neighbor”, sort of “Kingdom of God” mentality. Such ideas flew in the face of “common sense” in those days just as it does for most people even today.

There was something wonderfully divine in Christ’s Life and Death and Life.
Even if one considers the possiblity of some of the details being “less then perfect”, the result remains the greatest and most Loving Act of a Wonderful Loving Father in Heaven.

Peace
James

 

[Benedictus]

Yet, something happenned that inspired 11 out of 12 of them to die.

Actually, all twelve of them died, but you probably meant that eleven were martyred. Of course, there is no historical evidence of that; it’s just a tradition.

 

[JRKH]

Actually, all twelve of them died, but you probably meant that eleven were martyred. Of course, there is no historical evidence of that; it’s just a tradition.

Regardless of what and who’s martyrdom is specifically recorded, there were thousands of Christians sent to their deaths in the Roman Circus.
We do have Steven’s (a contempory of the Apostles and Christ) martyrdom recorded in Acts as well as the beheading of James, the brother of John. There is also written evidence of Ignatius of Antioch, another contemporary of the Apostles journey to Rome for execution in the Coliseum.

Unless you don’t accept these things as evidences.

Peace
James

 

[Ridgerunner]

There are also those who don’t believe the Jewish Holocaust happened either, despite overwhelming evidence that it did. Those who choose not to believe in something just won’t, no matter what.

 

[AnAtheist]

Or if he was proven to just be a man? …]Could Christianity still live on following jesus’s morals?

Well, it wouldn’t be Christianity as we know it, but you can follow Jesus’ morals without believing he was God. Why not?

 

[Mijoy2]

Well, it wouldn’t be Christianity as we know it, but you can follow Jesus’ morals without believing he was God. Why not?

Because He said He was God. Therefore the man, Jesus, was not moral, but a liar or a lunatic. Maybe a brilliant liar or lunatic, but no less, a liar or lunatic.

He’d be no more worthy of “following” then any other human being and arguably, less so.

To reflect on His teachings is to come to know He was like no other before or after Him. To reflect on His teachings is to know intuitively He was who He claimed to be. The only Son of the Living God.

 

[Benedictus]

Because He said He was God. Therefore the man, Jesus, was not moral, but a liar or a lunatic. Maybe a brilliant liar or lunatic, but no less, a liar or lunatic.

You assume that the gospel’s record his exact words. There is always the likely possibility that none of the written accounts of his life are entirely accurate. Even if the accounts are relatively accurate, Jesus could simply have been mistaken.

In either case, Jesus being God is incompatible with Judaism and the Torah. The idea of God becoming incarnate is not consistent with Jewish thought: God is beyond time, space, etc. and cannot have a son, become incarnate, and so on. God becoming man, along with the idea of the Trinity, is a deviation from strict monotheism and is incompatible with the teachings in the Torah (particularly Deuteronomy 6:4).

 

[Benedictus]

We do have Steven’s (a contempory of the Apostles and Christ) martyrdom recorded in Acts as well as the beheading of James, the brother of John. There is also written evidence of Ignatius of Antioch, another contemporary of the Apostles journey to Rome for execution in the Coliseum.

Well, I didn’t say that none were martyred. Indeed Steven and James, son of Zebedee were probably martyred, as was Peter. But we really have no idea what happened to most of the apostles.

In any case, dying for a religion only shows conviction, not the truthfulness of the religion. Other religions have their martyrs too. Suicide bombers come to mind, amongst others.

 

[WindyHair]

jesus was budhist.

during the time that he disappeared,
he want to study eastern philosophy.

 

[mercygate]

jesus was budhist.

during the time that he disappeared,
he want to study eastern philosophy.

Uh-huh. This fantasy appears on these forums now and then.

Who convinced you that it has any credibility at all?

 

[WindyHair]

Uh-huh. This fantasy appears on these forums now and then.

Who convinced you that it has any credibility at all?

just my opinion.
i think jesus focused alot on compassion and the weak.
in his day, there wasn’t much focus
on those things. it seems he brought the idea
from an outside source.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Richard Dawkins wants everyone else to be Christian. He is a militant atheist but wants the benefit of living in a Christian society.

If Christ were just a man, he wouldn’t have risen from the dead. Buddha never rose from the dead. Richard Dawkins won’t.

If Christ were just a man, I wouldn’t bother with the whole business. Maybe I would have read the Bible once through just to see what it said, perhaps for an ancient literature class, but I wouldn’t bother re-reading it or getting up on a Sunday morning to hear it proclaimed over and over again.

I certainly wouldn’t be charitable in my heart or my wallet towards other people. I would merely pursue my enlightened self-interest and probably be a big Ayn Rand/Karl Popper libertarian overlord.

Those people are interesting but I don’t want a world full of them. heh heh heh

 

[mercygate]

just my opinion.
i think jesus focused alot on compassion and the weak.
in his day, there wasn’t much focus
on those things. it seems he brought the idea
from an outside source.

Two thirds of the Hebrew Scriptures deal with mercy. Mercy and compassion are HUGE in Jewish life. It is a tradition that carries forward today. Jews are among the biggest contributors per capita to philanthropic efforts to aid the poor and weak.

The Pharisees – not the Boy Scouts – invented the concept of “doing one mitzvah – good deed – every day.”

 

[WindyHair]

Two thirds of the Hebrew Scriptures deal with mercy. Mercy and compassion are HUGE in Jewish life. It is a tradition that carries forward today. Jews are among the biggest contributors per capita to philanthropic efforts to aid the poor and weak.

The Pharisees – not the Boy Scouts – invented the concept of “doing one mitzvah – good deed – every day.”

but jesus was different from the jews.
i think his ideas of compassion
came across as more budhist.

"Jews are among the biggest contributors per capita to philanthropic efforts to aid the poor and weak. "

budhist monks don’t have much to give in earthly possesions.