What if Jesus was just a man?

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but jesus was different from the jews.
i think his ideas of compassion
came across as more budhist.

"Jews are among the biggest contributors per capita to philanthropic efforts to aid the poor and weak. "

budhist monks don’t have much to give in earthly possesions.
If you knew what Judaism TAUGHT and the standard Jews were supposed to uphold – even in the first century – you would not imagine that Jesus’ compassion for the poor was anything BUT Jewish. That is one reason he was so hard on the Pharisees, whose personal practice had fallen away from the teachings of the faith.

Buddhist? Absurd.
 
Tom Jefferson who was not a Christian assemble just such a booklet…Good deeds accomplished by Jesus…with no hint of any devine background in this wonderful strange person .Only thing is,Pilate did not find Jesus guilty of anything it was the cowardly PC clergy (mmm ) who changed their accusations from being a messiah to being anti-dictatorship.a revolutionary without an army yet? Since tho Jesus did ask more then once…'Whom do you think I am?" and Peter answered “You are the Christ etc” and Jesus did not corrrect him like…“no not quite,just a social worker…” so if Jesus was not the Son of God he was an evil man who helped put millions to death later since they believed in HIm and were considered enemies of the pagan state. I would like to have a good ole time here also…but I dunno,a man gets whupped,starved,nailed to a cross beam,stabbed in the chest near the heart,left up for all to see for some 3 hours…sealed up in an air-tight tomb and pronouced dead by professional executioners…tomb guarded by both Roman guards and religious for three days…then puff…gone…massive rock rolled back and the 16 guards dumbfounded…one has to realize for important guard duty assingments the Romans assigned some 16 troopers to the task…each in rows of 4…the first sitting,the second kneeling,the third standing and the fourth resting…an intrudder would have found it impossible to get to the tomb opening without stepping on a guards,face,neck,body etc…the above formation is then switched every 4 hours…no sane person dies for a lie knowing its a lie…I stand with the millions who either saw Jesus after He was dead and those who fought tyranny in His name…and the fight continues…amen and amen…Nino
I have always seen the transition of taking the body of Jesus off the cross and guards at the tomb as the weakest link in the Resurrection story. There is a real possibility that some of Jesus’ friends (e.g. Joseph of Arimathea a member of the Sanhedrin and Nicodemus and some of the Roman officers who Jesus healed) could have bribed or arranged for a theft of the body or substituted the body with one of the other dead bodies executed. I wish there was more written history in this area.

Just playing devil’s advocate - I believe in the resurrection simply because so many early christians died rather than reject their beliefs.

Where do you get your reference to the fact that there were both temple guards as well as Roman guards and that there were 16? I always wondered what happened to the roman guards who deserted their post at the resurrection - surely the penalty for botching Roman military guard duty or desertion must have been cruel and painful torture - if not also crucifixation. I have no idea who the temple guard reported too and if they would have been punished for letting the body be taken. I have a theory that certain of the Sanhedrin had to have known Jesus was really the Messiah. The signs were just too unmistakable - resurrection of Lazarus was irrefutable proof and I wonder why there is no accounts of the Sanhedrin questioning Lazarus or his family.

James
 
jesus was budhist.
during the time that he disappeared,
he want to study eastern philosophy.
Which is a heresy.
If “Jesus of Nazareth” was some sort of hoax, why would so many people be willing to die horrible, painful and torturous deaths just to perpetuate the hoax?
'Because there are always willing believers. In India, there was the “miracle” the the statue of a deity drinking milk. That was shown to be a hoax, but I can’t remember exactly how at the moment. People refuse to believe that it was a hoax, regardless of how much evidence to show that it was.
 
You assume that the gospel’s record his exact words. There is always the likely possibility that none of the written accounts of his life are entirely accurate. Even if the accounts are relatively accurate, Jesus could simply have been mistaken.

In either case, Jesus being God is incompatible with Judaism and the Torah. The idea of God becoming incarnate is not consistent with Jewish thought: God is beyond time, space, etc. and cannot have a son, become incarnate, and so on. God becoming man, along with the idea of the Trinity, is a deviation from strict monotheism and is incompatible with the teachings in the Torah (particularly Deuteronomy 6:4).
First of all, the Bible is inerrant.

Secondly, if God can create the universe out of nothing, why can’t He be three persons in one or become incarnate?
 
'Because there are always willing believers. In India, there was the “miracle” the the statue of a deity drinking milk. That was shown to be a hoax, but I can’t remember exactly how at the moment. People refuse to believe that it was a hoax, regardless of how much evidence to show that it was.
OK, but were the people responsible for the hoax willing to be tortured to death to perpetuate it? All of them? That would be the analogy.
 
I would imagine that, yes, there would be a few who would go to that extreme to support their faith.

But remember, these are not the average person, these are the few and far between.
 
First of all, the Bible is inerrant.
Umm… no it’s not. Not only are there numerous historical and factual errors in the Bible, but the Bible contradicts itself numerous times as well.
Secondly, if God can create the universe out of nothing, why can’t He be three persons in one or become incarnate?
It’s not about what God–if there is one–could or could not do, but rather that the doctrine of the Trinity violates the Torah’s teaching about the unity of God.
 
Umm… no it’s not. Not only are there numerous historical and factual errors in the Bible, but the Bible contradicts itself numerous times as well.
CCC107

The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

The Bible is inerrant.
God is beyond time, space, etc. and cannot have a son, become incarnate, and so on.
God can do whatever He wants to. His ways are not your ways.
 
I’ve heard many documentaries saying that Jesus went to the far east and india during that huge gap in his lifetime. What do you make of that? If that was proven, would it hurt the faith? How would it change things if Jesus’s teachings had a link to Buddhism?

I also heard things that they think his bones were discovered and he did not ascend into heaven ect.

I don’t really believe any of this but one thing I find troubling that they mentioned is that the Church or someone added the ascension into heaven hundreds of years after the original writings of matthew, mark, luke, and john and it was never originally in there.

Was the ascension originally in their writings or not? Can you prove it?
 
just my opinion.
i think jesus focused alot on compassion and the weak.
in his day, there wasn’t much focus
on those things. it seems he brought the idea
from an outside source.
BUT if you believe He was God, His teachings came from within. Something to ponder.
 
Umm… no it’s not. Not only are there numerous historical and factual errors in the Bible, but the Bible contradicts itself numerous times as well.

It’s not about what God–if there is one–could or could not do, but rather that the doctrine of the Trinity violates the Torah’s teaching about the unity of God.
This is because feeble minds like our and theirs just SOMEHOW CANNOT wrap our minds around the idea that we believe in ONE GOD, three persons. Unexplanable, but not polytheistic.
 
I have always seen the transition of taking the body of Jesus off the cross and guards at the tomb as the weakest link in the Resurrection story. There is a real possibility that some of Jesus’ friends (e.g. Joseph of Arimathea a member of the Sanhedrin and Nicodemus and some of the Roman officers who Jesus healed) could have bribed or arranged for a theft of the body or substituted the body with one of the other dead bodies executed. I wish there was more written history in this area.

Just playing devil’s advocate - I believe in the resurrection simply because so many early christians died rather than reject their beliefs.
One thing we know from history is that Roman soldiers *REALLY *knew what they were doing when it came to killng people. If they had botched it, they would have taken up residence in the tomb Jesus left behind, with no possibility of comiing out.

In fact, the whole business of the Jews telliing the Romans to lie about the empty tomb, and saying that they would fix things with their superiors testifies to the belief at LEAST that the tomb was empty. The soldiers certainly knew that Jesus was dead (which is another thing from whether the tomb was empty, of course).

Where do you get your reference to the fact that there were both temple guards as well as Roman guards and that there were 16? I always wondered what happened to the roman guards who deserted their post at the resurrection - surely the penalty for botching Roman military guard duty or desertion must have been cruel and painful torture - if not also crucifixation. I have no idea who the temple guard reported too and if they would have been punished for letting the body be taken. I have a theory that certain of the Sanhedrin had to have known Jesus was really the Messiah. The signs were just too unmistakable - resurrection of Lazarus was irrefutable proof and I wonder why there is no accounts of the Sanhedrin questioning Lazarus or his family.

James
 
I am a faithful catholic born and raised. But I often wonder is there any historical support/proof outside of the bible that Jesus did exist. I know that he existed and much of the world accepts that but I’m curious how much do we know about him outside of scripture?
Almost nothing. There are a few references, but most of them seem to be derivative of Christian accounts. The primary exception would be a passage in Josephus, but that one is *so *strong that most people think it was inserted by Christians, or at least doctored to make it stronger.
I hear so many accusations that the catholic church “labled” jesus divine and God a few centuries after he died.
Well, you shouldn’t go by “accusations,” you should go by evidence. The Council of Nicea (I think this is what you are talking about) did not suddenly invent the idea that Jesus was divine. Christians had believed this long before. The Council of Nicea dealt with just *how *Jesus is divine and how this can be reconciled with our belief that there is one God.
I know that scripture says he is God and is divine but how do I know the church did not put that in there?
There are places where that seems to have occurred. For instance, 1 Tim. 3:16 says in many manuscripts “God was manifest in the flesh.” But in the oldest manuscripts it says “he who was manifest in the flesh.” (Of course, these older manuscripts are themselves not the originals, so it’s possible that the majority reading is correct–but most scholars don’t think so.) However, the fact that we do have so many manuscripts with so many different readings makes it highly unlikely that *all *our manuscripts derive from some version that was tampered with. In other words, we can be quite confident–probably more confident than with any other ancient text–that where all the manuscripts agree (and that is the case most of the time) we really are dealing with the original version. For instance, all manuscripts of John 1:1 read “the Word was God.” All manuscripts record that Jesus said (John 8:52), “Before Abraham came to be, I am.” There is no rational reason to doubt that the original manuscript of John included these readings. Mind you, that original manuscript may have dated from the very end of the first century (we have a papyrus fragment of John from about 120, and presumably the text had been circulating for a while by then).
Going on top of that, how do you think Christianity would survive if they ever found Jesus’s grave or tomb with him in it? Or if he was proven to just be a man? If he was then he certainly was the most perfect man to exist. Could Christianity still live on following jesus’s morals?
Something called Christianity would no doubt continue to exist, at least for a while, but it would be radically different from what we call Christianity now. However, it’s unlikely that any argument or evidence will ever be produced that is strong enough to destroy Christian faith on a matter of such importance. Unlikely, not impossible.

Edwin
 
If Jesus was just a man, I would be asking on the non catholic religions part about Judiasm. :cool:
 
just my opinion.
i think jesus focused alot on compassion and the weak.
in his day, there wasn’t much focus
on those things. it seems he brought the idea
from an outside source.
And Buddah was that source? :rolleyes:
Umm… no it’s not. Not only are there numerous historical and factual errors in the Bible, but the Bible contradicts itself numerous times as well.

.
What we can say that in matters of faith, not necessarily history, the bible is inerrant.
 
I have always seen the transition of taking the body of Jesus off the cross and guards at the tomb as the weakest link in the Resurrection story. There is a real possibility that some of Jesus’ friends (e.g. Joseph of Arimathea a member of the Sanhedrin and Nicodemus and some of the Roman officers who Jesus healed) could have bribed or arranged for a theft of the body or substituted the body with one of the other dead bodies executed. I wish there was more written history in this area.

Just playing devil’s advocate - I believe in the resurrection simply because so many early christians died rather than reject their beliefs.

Where do you get your reference to the fact that there were both temple guards as well as Roman guards and that there were 16? I always wondered what happened to the roman guards who deserted their post at the resurrection - surely the penalty for botching Roman military guard duty or desertion must have been cruel and painful torture - if not also crucifixation. I have no idea who the temple guard reported too and if they would have been punished for letting the body be taken. I have a theory that certain of the Sanhedrin had to have known Jesus was really the Messiah. The signs were just too unmistakable - resurrection of Lazarus was irrefutable proof and I wonder why there is no accounts of the Sanhedrin questioning Lazarus or his family.

James
Romans did not crucify Romans. We don’t know what happened to any of the guards; whether they were punished, fled, reported back or what. The very reason there were guards was the fear on the part of the Jewish leaders that someone would steal His body, so a stealthy bribery would have been unlikely.

Nor do we know whether members of the Sanhedrin questioned Lazarus, his family members or anybody else about that event.

I realize there are many, many things about which one would like to ask questions. The bible itself, though, says there were many other events in the life of Jesus that are not recorded there. I expect we’ll all know more details someday.
 
Without Jesus being God, and without his death and ressurection, we would have no hope of ressurection in him with him in heaven. Baptism would also be frivilous.
 
In the same way that we cannot establish the existence of God scientifically, I doubt very much if it can be proven empirically that Christ is God.

This is why heresies arose as to His Humanity or His Divinity.

The Incarnation of God, is indeed incomprehensible to the mere human mind so if you are searching for scientific proof I think even your great (to the nth degree) grandchildren will not arrive at one.

You say that you do not share this view, OP, but it seems to me that you do have your doubts (and major at that), if you could even envision a scenario of someone finding his coffin with his bones in it!

Anyone who truly believes will know straight away that that will not be Christ’s tomb and the bones will not be His.

The only thing I can suggest is to pray about it. Conviction in our faith ( one that carries a person through the lion’s den singing) is a gift.

Ask for the gift of faith. It is not something that we can muster by ourselves.

As Saint Agustin says: Faith is believing what you cannot see, the gift of faith is seeing what you believe.

What matters most are usually tangible only to the heart.

And pray that others may be given the same gift as well.

“Praestet Fides supplementum, sensuum defectui”
 
Richard Dawkins wants everyone else to be Christian. He is a militant atheist but wants the benefit of living in a Christian society.

If Christ were just a man, he wouldn’t have risen from the dead. Buddha never rose from the dead. Richard Dawkins won’t.

If Christ were just a man, I wouldn’t bother with the whole business. Maybe I would have read the Bible once through just to see what it said, perhaps for an ancient literature class, but I wouldn’t bother re-reading it or getting up on a Sunday morning to hear it proclaimed over and over again.

I certainly wouldn’t be charitable in my heart or my wallet towards other people. I would merely pursue my enlightened self-interest and probably be a big Ayn Rand/Karl Popper libertarian overlord.

Those people are interesting but I don’t want a world full of them. heh heh heh
Karl Popper wasn’t a libertarian in the colloqial meaning of the world.
This, of course, means that the principle of non-intervention of an unrestrained economic system has to be given up; if we wish freedom to be safeguarded, then we must demand that the policy of unlimited economic freedom be replaced by economic intervention of the state.
In this way, the Marxian view is analogous to the liberal belief that all we need is “equality of opportunity”. We certainly need this. But it is not enough. It does not protect those who are less gifted, or less ruthless, or less lucky, from becoming objects of exploitation for those who are more gifted, ruthless, or lucky.
From the Open Society and Its Enemies.

And I regard Karl Popper as a better person than you are as he does not a divine authority to be benevolent towards others.
 
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