What if she won't listen?

[Matt22]

What do you get when you cross an amateur Catholic apologist with a Baptist theologian? My life!

My fiance has her B.Div. from a Baptist theology school. I stumbled upon apologetics last year this time. Since then, life’s been difficult.

The most difficult problem I have with her is that she isn’t willing to listen when I try to explain some aspect of the faith. She has no interest.

Her previous boyfriend was a Catholic early in their relationship and then converted to a Baptist. She insists that he was a well-educated Catholic. From stories, it seems as though they went over a lot of topics together before he converted. Hence, one of her excuses for not talking about doctrines: “Ohh! I’ve gone over all of this with Henry!” (Not his real name)

I would love to talk about religion with her, but she shows no interest. I would love for her to challenge my faith, and for me to show her, too, that the Baptist faith is not invincible.

One of the major things that she wants from me is for me to admit that the Catholic Church could be wrong. Before that, she won’t talk. But, can I really say that? It’s an article of the faith that the Church cannot be wrong! Obviously I want her to admit that Baptists could be wrong, at least when the evidence piles against them. So am I not therefore being hypocritical to demand something while being unwilling to give the same? She thinks so, and won’t talk or listen.

Can anyone help?

Frustrated,
Matt

 

[karisue]

i am also a waaay amateur, but if this were my situation, I would do the following:

1. Insist that she enter into dialogue about faith – it’s pretty central to your life and your impending marriage
2. I’d give her that it is theoretically possible that the Church or any institution for that matter could be wrong. [Then, go ahead and prove that the Church is right!]
3. I’d seriously reconsider your engagement. How will you raise children in the faith with someone who is an adament baptist? Esp one who won’t engage in conversation about the differences in faith?
4. I’d ask her to stop bring Henry into the conversation. She’s talking to you, not Henry. And Heaven knows what mis-information she may have gotten from him. She owes it to you to start the conversation w/ you w/ a clean slate.
5. Pray for her. Rosaries in particular. I’m serious. This will soften her heart as nothing else can.

Blessings and let us know what happens!

 

[familyof8]

Matt,

If she truly won’t discuss your faith with you, then this an extremely serious issue. Faith is the MOST important part of our lives. Have you read the numerous threads on the sorrows of mixed marriages? Why would you want to start your married life in a situation where there is closed communication?

To be harsh, who is more important in your life…Christ or your fiancee? No matter who the couple, no matter what the religion, a person of deep faith always puts our Lord first in their lives. In a relationship such as marriage where faith is central in our communing with God, if there is not agreement, that union is fragmented.

I live in an area where Baptists are vehemently anti-Catholic. They see themselves as the chosen ones in converting Catholics to the “true faith”…Baptist. Is she willing to face a future with you that is different from Henry…one where you don’t convert to Baptist? If she is firmly Baptist and not even willing to discuss Catholicism with you, will she agree to raise your children Catholic? As a Catholic entering into a mixed marriage, I am pretty sure the Church requires the other faith person to agree to the raising of the children as Catholic in order for the marriage to be performed. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong about that, but it seems to me that my sister-in-law had to have her then fiancee agree to this.)

Being of the same faith is the most joyous union one can ever imagine. Our faith in Christ, enjoining the intercession of Saints, praying to the Blessed Virgin, praying in Eucharistic Adoration together, attending Mass and receiving the Eucharist as a family, prayerfully preparing our children for their sacraments and joyfully watching their faith in the Lord blossom…these are the unifying joys you will be missing. Without these, our marriage would be an empty shell of what it is that makes us one. These aren’t just sacrifices as you state, they are who we are. They are what we live and breath and know in our heart to be the one and only TRUTH. Sacrificing these truths would be to tear Christ out of my soul…my oneness with my spouse is the unity in Christ in the Holy Mother church.

Please pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Ask for His guidance. Don’t go through with the marriage unless you know that Christ is blessing this union and that faith won’t tear it apart.

And as someone on another thread pointed out to you, you need to go to Mass and be in full Communion unless you are in mortal sin. Sitting in the pew and not receiving simply because she can’t is NOT the way to strengthen your relationship. The grace from the Eucharist fortifies our souls, strengthens our will, and shows our love for Christ who suffered the Passion for the very Bread of Life that you are denying to receive. She needs to accept this division in your lives, just as you are going to have to, if you make the decision to get married. His Sacrifice, His suffering in His Passion, His offering of the Eucharist…they are for you. Do not deny Him your love by sitting in a false sense of sacrifice with your fiancee. Living your life for His glory is why you were created. Not receiving His very Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity because someone totally refuses to discuss His very Presence is hurting our Lord by denying Him His just place in your life: FIRST.

 

[St_Veronica]

Matt22:

What do you get when you cross an amateur Catholic apologist with a Baptist theologian? My life!

My fiance has her B.Div. from a Baptist theology school. I stumbled upon apologetics last year this time. Since then, life’s been difficult.

The most difficult problem I have with her is that she isn’t willing to listen when I try to explain some aspect of the faith. She has no interest.

Her previous boyfriend was a Catholic early in their relationship and then converted to a Baptist. She insists that he was a well-educated Catholic. From stories, it seems as though they went over a lot of topics together before he converted. Hence, one of her excuses for not talking about doctrines: “Ohh! I’ve gone over all of this with Henry!” (Not his real name)

I would love to talk about religion with her, but she shows no interest. I would love for her to challenge my faith, and for me to show her, too, that the Baptist faith is not invincible.

One of the major things that she wants from me is for me to admit that the Catholic Church could be wrong. Before that, she won’t talk. But, can I really say that? It’s an article of the faith that the Church cannot be wrong! Obviously I want her to admit that Baptists could be wrong, at least when the evidence piles against them. So am I not therefore being hypocritical to demand something while being unwilling to give the same? She thinks so, and won’t talk or listen.

Can anyone help?

Frustrated,
Matt

You have no business getting married until you get this sorted out.

You think it’s frustrating now? Wait till you put children into it…the frustration and tension levels will rise big time.

How does she feel about natural family planning? Is she willing to raise the children Catholic?

What’s going to happen during your pre-canna classes (you are planning to be married by a priest aren’t you)?

SV

 

[Matt22]

I thank you all for your responses. I need to pray and meditate on them before I get back to each of you. Still, I would like to answer some of your questions.

My fiancee is all for natural family planning… she doesn’t believe in contraception, which is one of the reasons I chose to be with her.

She is willing to have the children raised Catholic. Though, as it stands, I will not vehemently deny that they enter a Baptist church. We will both raise them as Christians, teaching them the basics of the faith. Their real choice of denomination will be left to them as adults, just as each of us do.
I know some of you might be thinking, “But what about teaching the child about the Eucharist?” I did not even know the words “Real Presence” until I was 21 and most Catholics I’ve met didn’t either. It’s not a part of the faith that’s easily grasped, and I don’t expect a child to grasp it. More important to me is that they learn to love and serve others.

We are not planning to be married by a priest. A priest or deacon will be present to make the marriage valid, but we intend to be married by her pastor, to whom she is very close. I have never been close to any of my pastors.

Many of you asked who is more important in my life: Christ or my fiancee? I appreciate the question, but you are acting as though Protestants: this isn’t a either/or question. For Christ to be important in my life, I must choose to bear the crosses that he gives me, including loving my fiancee to whom he has lead me. The back door is not an option here. To each of you I ask: when you met your husband/wife, did you know in your heart of hearts? If so, then you will realize that the back door is not an option.

Thanks again to all of you. I appreciate any other advice, especially from people with mixed marriages.

Peace of Christ,
Matt

 

[St_Veronica]

Matt22:

She is willing to have the children raised Catholic. Though, as it stands, I will not vehemently deny that they enter a Baptist church. We will both raise them as Christians, teaching them the basics of the faith. Their real choice of denomination will be left to them as adults, just as each of us do.
I know some of you might be thinking, “But what about teaching the child about the Eucharist?” I did not even know the words “Real Presence” until I was 21 and most Catholics I’ve met didn’t either. It’s not a part of the faith that’s easily grasped, and I don’t expect a child to grasp it. More important to me is that they learn to love and serve others.

We are not planning to be married by a priest. A priest or deacon will be present to make the marriage valid, but we intend to be married by her pastor, to whom she is very close. I have never been close to any of my pastors.

Many of you asked who is more important in my life: Christ or my fiancee? I appreciate the question, but you are acting as though Protestants: this isn’t a either/or question. For Christ to be important in my life, I must choose to bear the crosses that he gives me, including loving my fiancee to whom he has lead me. The back door is not an option here. To each of you I ask: when you met your husband/wife, did you know in your heart of hearts? If so, then you will realize that the back door is not an option.

Thanks again to all of you. I appreciate any other advice, especially from people with mixed marriages.

Peace of Christ,
Matt

I see several issues here…

First…you both plan to raise your children as Christians teaching them the basics of the faith. You do realize that the Baptist faith is strongly against much of what the Catholic Church teaches?

How do you plan to handle prayers to Saints (do you think your wife and her faith are going to support this? What about teachings on purgatory? How about the Real Presence? You dont think children understand this…I assure you they do (I have children) even at a young age…especially if they are in Mass each week and taught at home. What about the rosary and Mary? Do you think your fiancee is going to be ok with you praying this with your children? Is she going to object to how you and your children think about Mary?

It is important that they learn to love and serve others, however it sounds as if you are advocating ‘every faith is ok’ just as long as you believe in God. We are talking about the fullness of truth there…there is only ONE truth.

Studies (and real life people) will tell you that those raised in mixed faith homes often end up with NO faith due to confusion and disagreements with the parents over faith.

You have discussed this plan to marry outside the Church with your priest? Has he ok’d this and will he be present? It’s my undestanding that one must have permission to marry in a non-Catholic Church when one is Catholic. Personally as a Catholic I would never agree to be married by any other clergy member. The most I would concede would be a dual ceremony (where both priest and other clergy both officiate).

One last thing…you yourself said you are frustrated that your fiancee refuses to discuss these things, that she is not willing to ‘hear’…that in itself is a big RED flag. If she is NOT willing to be receptive to the Catholic faith…I dont know how you think she is going to become more so when you have children, if anything she will become less likely to want to hear it.

SV

 

[Matt22]

Dear St. Veronica,

Again I would like to thank you for your reply.

You have an interesting view of things. My view is not quite the same. I admire your fervant love for the faith, but your dislike of Protestants is repelling… I don’t know how you act toward Protestants, but the way you’ve come off is the opposite of charity.

Many scholars, I believe even Karl Keating himself, are quick to point out that Protestants share about 80% of our faith, and we honour them as Christians. There is a tragic divide over some points of doctrine, but the message is basically the same.

Am I saying that every faith is ‘okay’ so long as you believe in God? That depends on what you mean by ‘okay.’ Do I believe Protestants are able to be saved? Without a doubt. Do I believe that Mormons and Muslims are automatically damned? No, I leave them to the mercy of God. (cf CCC 847). We all seek to please God, and the greatest way is through the faith proclaimed by the Catholic Church. But that does not mean that Protestants hit a distant second.

As for the rosary or prayers to saints, my fiancee is willing to be there while I pray… I simply haven’t asked her to yet. I was not raised with the rosary or prayers to saints as the main part to my prayer. Nor do I now think that it should be. When I pray a Hail Mary or the full rosary, I am extremely meditative, as I think it should be. A full rosary may take me an hour and a half.

As for teachings on purgatory, many Protestants believe in much the same, only they don’t have a name for it. Catholics should not be too quick to say that purgatory is a place or has any set duration. We believe it to be a necessary cleansing before entrance into heaven. No Protestant would deny that nothing unholy will enter heaven… the bible says it explicitly.

 

[Matt22]

Perhaps I should be more specific here about what I am looking for. I would love advice on how to raise discussion in a charitable way. NOT how or why I should end my engagement. Go beyond your own sensitivities and imagine someone who has been taught that the Catholic Church is wrong and has her own reasons for believing what she believes.

This conversion will not happen overnight and this is not the type of encounter where I can spurt out every argument at once. This will take a long time.

I know that my greatest influence will not be my words, but my heart and charity and prayers. “Proclaim the gospel at all times; even use words, if necessary.” (St. Francis of Assisi) Conversion is not the work of arguments, it is the work of the holy Spirit. And we must never forget that.

Therefore, I am asking you sincerely how to approach a woman on a sensitive topic without damaging her emotions or her pride. What words do I start with? What point of faith do I start with? (Hint: charity does not point toward a topic of division, but one of unity. When Paul spoke to the people of Athens, did he start with their ungodly sexual practices? [Acts 17:22ff])

Thank-you again for any advice.

Peace of Christ,
Matt

 

[St_Veronica]

Matt,

I believe you are reading into what I am saying here. I do not dislike Protestants. Most of my close friends are Protestant, most of my family is Protestant.

Look, you came here with an apparant problem, asking for advice. I think it is a BIG problem when you have a fiancee who is showing the attitude she has, I don’t care if she is Jew, Catholic or Protestant.

I’m not saying you should even leave your fiancee…but it is irresponsible for anyone here to pretend like you aren’t going to have some major issues with faith in your marriage, based on what you said, especially when you enter children into the picture, unless you resolve these issues BEFORE marriage and yes I am still bothered by the fact you are willing to marry without a priest at least co-residing over the ceremony (not just being present as a witness in the audience)…as a Catholic I can’t imagine it. Perhaps you don’t realize that you are coming across as willing to compromise your Faith in order to make your fiancee happy.

Oh and let me know how your conversations with Protestants go (have gone) about purgatory…I’ve had a few of those myself and I’ve not come across one yet that thinks there is anything like Purgatory…to most of them if you believe in Purgatory then you are denying the ‘work on the Cross’. They believe adamently that when you die you are judged and go immedately to hell or heaven, period…and the blood of Christ covers any sins you die with, that it erases them instantly…so that takes care of the ‘unholy’ part as far as they are concerned.

By the way I was not raised Catholic…so I do have some working knowledge of Baptist, AoG and various Evangelical Churches.

SV

 

[pnewton]

Take the role of the student. There was an excellent article on this in This Rock last year about the use of questions to illicit udertsnding. If I can find the issue, I’ll post the info.

Do not lose hope. I went to Houston Baptist U and SW Theo Sem. I was studying Catholicism in an effort to see my fiance “saved” when I converted and joined the Catholic Church.

 

[Nicole]

Hello, my husband recently converted, but is still learning a lot about the Faith. One think I would suggest is to have Catholic materials laying around and ready for her to read if she gets curious. I would suggest the National Catholic Register and the book series, Surprised by Truth, to name a few. Maybe Rome Sweet Home or Haily Holy Queen (both by Scott Hahn), or just heartwarming stories like the AMazing Grace for the Catholic Heart book. This way, she may pick one up one day and learn more about the faith, but it won’t be you telling her.

God Bless,
Nicole

 

[pamflute]

Matt:

When my husband and I married we were “pretty close” as far as denominations were concerned. We were both raised Baptist but I never felt comfortable in that church and we were attending a Presbyterian Church. We have been married 10 years and it has been an up and down roller coaster ride when it comes to faith issues. Sometimes he is interested, sometimes he isn’t. He is very concerned about me looking at Catholicism and has limited what I can and can’t read. Baptists are not like other Protestants - trust me, my dad is a Baptist minister and I know from the inside out. They are fiercely independent and don’t care much about the historical faith. I think they are rather proud of the fact that they have nothing to do with it! I would also suggest that you take this slowly and carefully. If your faith means a lot to you, you want your partner to feel the same way. My husband is a wonderful man and I love him but most of the time, we are miles apart spiritually and this is a great cause of heartache for me. He is not totally apathetic, but almost never shows the interest I would like him to have. He is not abusive or mean or anything else that would be hard to live with - he just doesn’t want to explore Catholicism with me and generally doesn’t even care about the church we go to now. I often wonder if I had been more into the Baptist faith, if that would have made a difference. He never pressured me to go a Baptist church because he knew I disliked it in the extreme and he didn’t want to make me unhappy. I would think a “dyed in the wool” Baptist and a Catholic would be an unhappy mix, but of course I don’t know your whole story. I’m sure you will take it slowy and carefully because the minefields are out there!

 

[Matt22]

Nicole,

Nicole:

Hello, my husband recently converted, but is still learning a lot about the Faith. One think I would suggest is to have Catholic materials laying around and ready for her to read if she gets curious. I would suggest the National Catholic Register and the book series, Surprised by Truth, to name a few. Maybe Rome Sweet Home or Haily Holy Queen (both by Scott Hahn), or just heartwarming stories like the AMazing Grace for the Catholic Heart book. This way, she may pick one up one day and learn more about the faith, but it won’t be you telling her.

Thanks for the advice. I have a lot of books laying around and perhaps all I need is some good ol’ fashioned holy patience. She started to read the Pierced by a Sword series by Bud McFarlene, but didn’t finish it. I’m hoping that she’ll pick up something more theological the next time she decides to read something of mine. To be honest, maybe she just needs a reprieve from all of the theology. And maybe that’s what she’s looking for… Sometimes you just want to read something simple and let life be simple for a while.

Thanks and Love,
Matt

 

[Matt22]

Pamflute,

Thanks for the advice, and I will take it slowly.

Of course, more binds a person than just their denominations. Similarities and complementing differences are very important in a marriage. Her and I are both Newfoundlanders, with a common background of culture, and that helps. We both have similar parenting styles and ideas, and I cannot praise her enough for her cooking (better than my mom’s, but don’t tell her that!). We’re both intellectuals, etc., etc., I don’t want to bore you.

To be honest, I looked for a good Catholic girl, but didn’t find any! Well, that’s a lie: I found one, and she didn’t want anything to do with me. Where I was raised, the only young adult Catholics who understood the Real Presence were guys… sadly, most others weren’t even prayerful people. So I held on to a Protestant, whom at least I could trust to be spiritual!

Peace and may God bless your marriage and help to lead your husband toward Catholicism with you!

Matt

 

[journey]

Hi Matt!

Your post really caught my attention, because I am in a mixed marriage. My situation is a little different, in that I became Catholic after being married for ten years (so I switched on my husband, mid-stream, so to speak). My husband was reared in a Lutheran church, and became Baptist after we were married. He currently remains Baptist, and he is very happy to stay that way for now. I started a thread yesterday, because we have had so much difficulty with the differences of our denominations, that I had been considereing divorce so that our children could be Catholic. My husband wants them to be Baptist. It sounds, though that your fiance has already agreed that your future children would be Catholic, so that is good. I think that I would relax more if my husband would agree to the same thing.

I would like to share with you about when I became a Catholic. I was vehemently Baptist, believed all of the theology presented. However, there are scripture passages that give evidence for Catholicism. Pray that your fiance will read these passages. Baptists know scripture very well, and I am sure your fiance does since she has a degree from a Baptist institution. I also attended a mass when I was on a retreat at a monastary with some Baptist friends of mine. I was really drawn to the Eucharist and to the mystery and beauty of the mass. Perhaps your fiance will attend some masses with you. Check out Dave Armstrong’s website, Biblical Evidence for Catholocism. He also has several books out with similar titles to his website. I’m sorry I don’t have the exact link for you. I’ll pray for you both.

God Bless You!
journey

 

[Fidelis]

If she won’t discuss or won’t read, perhaps she’ll listen–to tapes and CDs? St. Joseph’s Communications has hundreds of audio presentations on apologetics and other topics. Perhaps she would listen to Steven Ray’s conversion story, who was also a Baptist, or one of his excellent Bible studies (I’d recommend Acts of the Apostles, as it has a lot of apologetics in it). If her interest is at all piqued, perhaps you can follow up with his books, *Crossing The Tiber * or Upon This Rock.

Here’s the website. Good luck.

saintjoe.com/p/home.pl

 

[Matt22]

journey:

Hi Matt!
I had been considereing divorce so that our children could be Catholic. My husband wants them to be Baptist.

Journey,

I know this post is supposed to be about me, but I would like to respond to this. Divorce, of course, is not the way to go, and I’m sure many people in your own post have said much against that course of action. They probably also said something about Paul’s teaching in favour of divorce for Christian/non-Christian marriages IF the non-Christian desired to leave. But you, as a Catholic, definitely should not initiate divorce.

Secondly, compromise is extremely important here. Gary Chapman has a wonderful book out which might help you and your husband come to understand each other better; it’s called “Covenant Marriage.” And, so that your husband feels better, the author is a Baptist. Read it and come to a compromise, if at all possible.

journey:

I also attended a mass when I was on a retreat at a monastary with some Baptist friends of mine. I was really drawn to the Eucharist and to the mystery and beauty of the mass.

My fiance accompanies me to mass, though I do not receive communion while she is there. She is disturbed by the Church’s “discrimination.” Thus, to avoid scandalizing her, I make her feel welcome, and I stay in the pew.

I know she goes to hear the sermon, and I know that she’s disappointed each time. It’s short, simple and to the point, but she thinks you could find such knowledge and wisdom on your own time. Maybe she’s right, but she’s missing something of the simplicity and the constant call to holiness which is found at a Catholic mass. Anyhow, though she seemingly gets little from it, she comes with me… because she loves me and no other reason.

journey:

Check out Dave Armstrong’s website, Biblical Evidence for Catholocism. He also has several books out with similar titles to his website. I’m sorry I don’t have the exact link for you. I’ll pray for you both.

Yes, I’ve read two of his books: A Biblical Defense of Catholicism and More Biblical Evidence. Both very very excellent books, and I still have three others of his to read. I have all five on my desktop, and my fiance has frequent access to my laptop. However, she has never been interested enough to open them and read.

ic.net/~erasmus/BOOKS.htm

Thanks for the prayers. I’ll pray for your situation as well.

Yours,
Matt

 

[Flounder]

I’m sorry, Matt, and I know you don’t want any more feedback on your engagement, but I don’t think you’re even close to ready to take on this marriage. Please sit down with a priest and maybe some good Catholic parents. Your parish marriage preparation should be adressing this.

Seems so far you’ve taught your fiance that raising your kids in the particulars of the Catholic faith is not important; being married in the Church is not important; and receiving the Eucharest is not special to you, in fact her sensed “unfairness” and hurt feelings are more important.

This stuff overrides any books or tapes you leave around.

 

[misericordie]

They (baptists) actually STUDY THEOLOGY??? I thought as one told me once, that “the important thing is to FEEL Jesus and NOT STUDY about God.” I wonder if one must STUDY math in order to learn it, or spelling or reading, or should we just FEEL those to.

 

[pnewton]

misericordie:

They (baptists) actually STUDY THEOLOGY??? I thought as one told me once, that "the important thing is to FEEL Jesus and NOT STUDY about God.

Of course Baptist study theology(that’s what a seminary is for). Feelings do not play into the Baptist faith.