What if the gates of hell were opened and the damned were gotten into heaven?

[tonyrey]

Hello FMS

The problem is that very few people indeed reject God in the sense that they think there is a good God etc and who nevertheless choose to oppose him.

They may not think he exists or they may not be sure he exists.
Or they may ignore him or go against some of his commandments.
None of this amounts to a 100% conscious rejection which might merit Hell.

Or let’s talk morality. Nobody is completely good though Christians and many non-Christians try. But nobody is 100% bad either. Only the latter - if there are - any merit Hell.

Anyone in Hell would repent. They would surely say, “I see now that there is an eternal loving God who made me so that I could not be truly happy save in his presence. I see now and bitterly regret my rejection of this God when I was on earth. Holy Mother and all the Saints pray for me. Lord forgive me and answer my prayers” Nobody would want to continue in a situation that they now clearly see is horrible. They might unwittingly have chosen to go there when they were on earth but now, in agony they would repent of their choice. And God would answer them!

Laurie, I agree with you that anyone who repents cannot be in hell. That would be incompatible with God’s infinite mercy and love. They wouldn’t be there in the first place! But it is possible to choose to live for oneself rather than God because having absolute freedom must be a source of enormous pleasure as well as misery. We shouldn’t underestimate the lust for power and the attraction of evil. We have to allow for the possibility of a bitter-sweet existence…

 

[Vile_Servant]

3] If Hell is God’s punishment for sin it is quite disproportionate to make it everlasting.

*“We find also other reasons given by the saints why some are justly condemned to everlasting punishment for a temporal sin. One is because they sinned against an eternal good by despising eternal life. This is mentioned by Augustine (De Civ. Dei. xii, 12): “He is become worthy of eternal evil, who destroyed in himself a good which could be eternal.” Another reason is because man sinned in his own eternity [Cf. I-II, 87, 3, ad 1]; wherefore Gregory says (Dial. iv), it belongs to the great justice of the judge that those should never cease to be punished, who in this life never ceased to desire sin. And if it be objected that some who sin mortally propose to amend their life at some time, and that these accordingly are seemingly not deserving of eternal punishment, it must be replied according to some that Gregory speaks of the will that is made manifest by the deed. For he who falls into mortal sin of his own will puts himself in a state whence he cannot be rescued, except God help him: wherefore from the very fact that he is willing to sin, he is willing to remain in sin for ever. For man is “a wind that goeth,” namely to sin, “and returneth not by his own power” (Psalm 77:39). Thus if a man were to throw himself into a pit whence he could not get out without help, one might say that he wished to remain there for ever, whatever else he may have thought himself. Another and a better answer is that from the very fact that he commits a mortal sin, he places his end in a creature; and since the whole of life is directed to its end, it follows that for this very reason he directs the whole of his life to that sin, and is willing to remain in sin forever, if he could do so with impunity. This is what Gregory says on Job 41:23, “He shall esteem the deep as growing old” (Moral. xxxiv): “The wicked only put an end to sinning because their life came to an end: they would indeed have wished to live for ever, that they might continue in sin for ever for they desire rather to sin than to live.” Still another reason may be given why the punishment of mortal sin is eternal: because thereby one offends God Who is infinite. Wherefore since punishment cannot be infinite in intensity, because the creature is incapable of an infinite quality, it must needs be infinite at least in duration. And again there is a fourth reason for the same: because guilt remains for ever, since it cannot be remitted without grace, and men cannot receive grace after death; nor should punishment cease so long as guilt remains.” *

• St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Supplement, Question 99, Article 1.

 

[fms]

Laurie,

I will just state what we Catholics believe and we believe it from God.

What constitutes friendship with God?

This is working for God: you must believe in the one he has sent

What are we to do to remain in God’s love/prove that we love him?

*If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. *

The Church tells us to die in God’s friendship, we must be free from mortal sin (not not sinning in a grave matter, with full knowledge and full consent).

Even non-Christians and atheists know that you do not go around killing people or sleeping with other peoples wives.

And then for those atheists and non-Christians, they must believe in the Lord when he is preached to them. Laurie, we are doing so even now in these forums.

That you may believe in him and come to the full knowledge of the truth,
fms

 

[fms]

Hello FMS

Anyone in Hell would repent. They would surely say, “I see now that there is an eternal loving God who made me so that I could not be truly happy save in his presence. I see now and bitterly regret my rejection of this God when I was on earth. Holy Mother and all the Saints pray for me. Lord forgive me and answer my prayers” Nobody would want to continue in a situation that they now clearly see is horrible. They might unwittingly have chosen to go there when they were on earth but now, in agony they would repent of their choice. And God would answer them!

This does not work even in human justice.

Or else we would not have any prisons.

Those in hell will be sorry but that sorrow will not be meritorious.

Rihanna sings

Don’t tell me you are sorry because you are not. And baby when I know you are only sorry you got caught.

Now is the time of Mercy. Then, only Justice.

 

[spockrates]

Perhaps Laurie decided to keep on trucking and left us in the dust of the spinning wheels of his big rig?

 

[tonyrey]

Those in hell will be sorry but that sorrow will not be meritorious.

How do you know that?

 

[fms]

How do you know that?

From Christ:

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth…/

QUOTE]

Please refer to all my posts in this thread.*

 

[CatholicGuy22]

Thanks for comments - let me respond.

CATHOLIC GUY - you say;
*Once you see God and all his glory and still reject him, you will never be forgiven. *

My point is that nobody seeing God as he is would reject him - hence nobody in Hell

THING

Yes if an individual knows God now he will avoid the anxiety of a possible Hell. But my questions are about people who honestly do not think there is a God…

SPOCKY PERSON

Hell is supposed to be 100% awful and everlasting. It is hard to think of anything that merits such a punishment. I may not be a very good person and I may not think that the evidence merits belief in God but I cannot think this merits an eternity of agony!

A fixed term punishment or anihilation would be more proportionate.

Satan and all his angels rejected God too so it is possible.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Some questions for you about Satan;

1] If Satan was made a perfect being by God - why did he rebel? If you say that it was because he was proud, let me point out that a perfect being would not have such a fault.

2] Satan would have known that God made him in such a way that he could only be happy with God so why rebel?

3] Satan would know that a rebellion against an all-powerful God would be doomed to faillure - so why try such a foolish thing?

4] After he had been thrown out of Heaven, why did he not repent and why did not a loving God forgive?

5] The story makes Satan a proud angel but why is he supposed to be bad in other ways too. And why are people in Hell tormented? If they choose to join other rebels there why are they not welcomed?

It seems to me that the story does not hang together. Surely the whole story needs to be discarded or modernised?

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

LOADS OF ANSWERS

I see that there are a lot of posts here that I have not answered so I’ll try now.

Catholic Guy 22: Post 11
You say that we cannot know what the next life will be like. But Catholics say lots of things about it and that is what we are discussing. You cannot have your cake and eat it you know.

Of course there will be things about it that are beyond us now but the Church believes that there is much we can say about it.

Thingost 12
You do not deal with my reasoning which concluded ‘the whole idea of Hell does not square with a good God’

Spockperson: Post 13
What crime could merit unending agony? A longer answer would need us to look at the question of the point of punishment. The answer to your question is given in Post 18
**
FMS: Post 15**
Hell might be due to my choice and then in Hell I would wail and gnash my teeth. And repent and be forgiven by a loving God. God’s love is infinite but you have limited it. Also see my Post 17

Spockyost 19
If God is not merciful to the dammed then he is not good. Therefore my conclusion is that a believer cannot accept (i) That God is all Good and (ii) That there is an eternal Hell. One must be rejected.

Thing: Post 20
Your first point: Actually I have not rejected God because I do not think there is a God to reject. However if there is, and I see him in glory, I would of course repent and want to accept him. And if he is Love as you say, I would be forgiven.

Your second point: Very ingenious and poetic! Even if Hell exists as an eternal present, in that eternal moment there would be eternal regret and repentance – to which God would respond?

Tonrey: Post 21
Agreed then nobody who repented would remain in Hell. Why should a person not repent –surely they would realise their mistake. If they are happy in Hell – this is contrary to Catholic dogma – what is all the fuss about the terrors of Hell then?

Vile servant: Post 22
Please excuse me I only reply to people not to long passages from books! I could reply with a passage from another book.

Would you mind explaining what St Thomas is saying here – in modern English?

FMS: Post 23
This is preaching not reasoning. Please answer my arguments –don’t just ‘shout’ at me.

FMS: Post 24
It might be just if a God said to a person in Hell, “You have committed sin so you must stay there for X years until your sin is purged away”. But an everlasting punishment is monstrous.

Spock: Post 25
I have trucked back for a moment or two. Hi!

I think I have caught up now.

Best wishes,

Laurie

 

[Thing]

Laurie:

Thingost 12
You do not deal with my reasoning which concluded ‘the whole idea of Hell does not square with a good God’

You are quite right. Hell was not part of Gods plan for Creation in the beginning. Everything God created was Good. He saw that it was Good. Unfortunately not everything God created good stayed good when faced with freedom of choice to love God, or to love themselves only. Because God is Good we have hell now. The devil and his angels rejected God and so could not remain in the Good Gods presence any longer. They were cast out of heaven, out of the presence of all that is Good, and they occupy that place called hell, the place wherin there is nothing Good.
If the Good God had not cast the devil from hell He would not be the Good God.
From this point on human history becomes the story of the struggle of the forces of Good and the forces of anti-Good, evil.
People fall in two camp, as did the angels at their judgement, and people will fall, inevitably for the devil and will be lost.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Dear THINGY,

Would you do me a small favour and answer my questions concerning Satan Post 29.

Thanks

Laurie

 

[Thing]

Some questions for you about Satan;

1] If Satan was made a perfect being by God - why did he rebel? If you say that it was because he was proud, let me point out that a perfect being would not have such a fault.

Satan was an angel with a choice. He saw how great he was and said; ‘I will not serve.’

2] Satan would have known that God made him in such a way that he could only be happy with God so why rebel?

You know you can only be happy with God but you want to rebel against what He tells you. ''And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:". Rebellion is part of freedom in a world in which Satan roams ‘like a lion, seeking whom he may devour’.

3] Satan would know that a rebellion against an all-powerful God would be doomed to faillure - so why try such a foolish thing?

Because he was blinded by his love of his own power. Why would anyone foolishly argue with God when He speaks.

4] After he had been thrown out of Heaven, why did he not repent and why did not a loving God forgive?

In Eternity there is no time. There is no time for a change of mind because there is no time. A timeless creature makes an eternal choice. Once the decision is made the decision is made. No time passes for a later thought to be considered. The decision is made in eternity.

5] The story makes Satan a proud angel but why is he supposed to be bad in other ways too. And why are people in Hell tormented? If they choose to join other rebels there why are they not welcomed?

Satan primarily hates God, as God is power. Gods creatures are less powerful, but they are Gods and Satan will attempt to destroy them because they are Gods. People are tormented in hell because satan torments them, they were created by God.
Satan does not need others, remember his self-love was his downfall, and it is his perpetual state, he does not love his minions he hates them.

It seems to me that the story does not hang together. Surely the whole story needs to be discarded or modernised?

At your peril.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Thing – shall we take these questions and your answers one at a time?

I ask why Satan rebelled and you say;

Satan had a choice and seeing how great God was said ‘I will not serve’.

But I want to explain why this answer does not work. I know that Satan had a choice and that explains why he was able to rebel but I want an explanation of why he actually did.

[Suppose you ask why I did something that was wrong. ‘Why did he get drunk?’ The answer ‘Because he had free will’ is not enough. You want an explanation of why I used my free will in the way I did, For example ‘Because he wanted to do what everyone else was doing. He did not want to stand out in the crowd’.]

So what is the explanation? The usual answer is because Satan was proud and envious. Now comes the problem. God made Satan as a perfect being of his type. He had free will of course but he could not have had the character defects of pride and envy. He would have been like St Theresa for example [but better] she had free will but because she was a good woman, pride and envy were not in her makeup. So, do you see, that Satan, before he rebelled, could not have had these flaws either. So I ask again – what could have made him rebel?

 

[spockrates]

…

Spockyost 19
If God is not merciful to the dammed then he is not good. Therefore my conclusion is that a believer cannot accept (i) That God is all Good and (ii) That there is an eternal Hell. One must be rejected.
…
Spock: Post 25
I have trucked back for a moment or two. Hi!

I think I have caught up now.

Best wishes,

Laurie

Glad to have you back, Laurie. Keep on truckin’!



Regarding your answer to post 19, please tell me why you believe God is not merciful to the damned. To make it simple on me, perhaps you might tell me how each of the definitions of mercy do not apply to those in Hell.

mer·cy
   /ˈmɜrsi/ Show Spelled[mur-see]
–noun,plural-cies for 4, 5.

1. compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one’s power; compassion, pity, or benevolence: Have mercy on the poor sinner.
2. the disposition to be compassionate or forbearing: an adversary wholly without mercy.
3. the discretionary power of a judge to pardon someone or to mitigate punishment, esp. to send to prison rather than invoke the death penalty.
4. an act of kindness, compassion, or favor: She has performed countless small mercies for her friends and neighbors.
5. something that gives evidence of divine favor; blessing: It was just a mercy we had our seat belts on when it happened.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercy

 

[fms]

Laurie,

Even though our faith is reasonable and not against reason, we hold the things we believe as coming from God who can neither deceive nor be deceived.

In my posts I have stated what we believe and you say that is preaching and shouting at you.

I have reasoned with you even from human examples, from all we see around us, but you seem ‘stuck’ in your way of thinking.

One last human example to you: why may one be committed to life in prison for attempted murder when no one died?

The Lord is the lawgiver and Judge. Surely he determines then what is the reward (far exceeds what we human beings could have naturally aspired to) and what is the due penalty for breaking his law.

The constant revelation is that It is a dreadful thing to fall in the hands of the living God.

Jesus calls Satan a murderer from the very beginning. Herein lies the very malice of grave/mortal sin: it is depriving self and others of supernatural life. Of wanting to kill God - yet one is because of Him - who by nature IS and is distinguished from other ‘gods’ in that He is the only living God. And the proof of all this is that when God became man and could die (freely) we killed him…

Laurie, the same God who threatens hell, is the one who, by his life, death, and resurrection, has obtained for us the means to escape that very same hell he threatens.

Two more things:

1. Eternity is not a succession of time.
2. To be in hell is not to have life with punishment. It is to have forfeited life (another example to draw from: think of sinners on earth or drug addicts).

 

[Thing]

Thing – shall we take these questions and your answers one at a time?

I ask why Satan rebelled and you say;

Satan had a choice and seeing how great God was said ‘I will not serve’.

But I want to explain why this answer does not work. I know that Satan had a choice and that explains why he was able to rebel but I want an explanation of why he actually did.

[Suppose you ask why I did something that was wrong. ‘Why did he get drunk?’ The answer ‘Because he had free will’ is not enough. You want an explanation of why I used my free will in the way I did, For example ‘Because he wanted to do what everyone else was doing. He did not want to stand out in the crowd’.]

So what is the explanation? The usual answer is because Satan was proud and envious. Now comes the problem. God made Satan as a perfect being of his type. He had free will of course but he could not have had the character defects of pride and envy. He would have been like St Theresa for example [but better] she had free will but because she was a good woman, pride and envy were not in her makeup. So, do you see, that Satan, before he rebelled, could not have had these flaws either. So I ask again – what could have made him rebel?

Listen. The kingdom of God is like a kingdom of friends. God is the big tree and all his friends go to him and roost in his branches. They do that because they like him he is their friend.
The God you have proposed is a god looking for a robot. He designs his robot perfectly and his robot behaves perfectly. But what is new in that. The robot has just been made as a part of God. As God loves his own goodness his robot loves his goodness too, sortof, because it is not the robots love it is Gods love programmed into the robot.
So here we are, the actual God, concieves of something totally new and different. A non-robot. A creation, a creature which will love God itself when it finally sees God. This is not a robot programmed, but a free creature.
And as a free creature is free to love the God he sees, conversely, he is necessarily free to reject the God he sees. He will reject the God he sees only for another good. In this case the only other good is the creature itself. Satan saw God and saw his own greatness, remember he was called the angel of light or lucifer, and faced with that choice and being an actual free creature he did not see why he should serve God or love God over himself.
Call it insanity on his part if you will, but every day people place themselves, their own self-love, above the good of their families, friends, their Creator etc., etc. It is the price of being free for some, they will not serve.

 

[presidentjlh]

God is just and anyone in the end who persists in rejecting God will end up in hell.

My recent thinking, from earthly observations, has been even if the damned were somehow forced into heaven, they will not get heaven and thus unable to enjoy it. Just as an unchaste person never gets true love and intimacy, a murderer never values life, etc.

If God wills it, His will be done. Although I don’t see Him letting the damned leave Hell and enter Heaven, if He wills it, it will happen, and it will be the perfect choice, as God knows what to do.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Mr Spock

I do not understand your question captain! People in Hell are in torment and, I assume, bitterly regret being there. God is not merciful if he leaves them there when he can do something about it. What am I missing that motivates the question?.

FMS
You still do not deal with my points!

If you like, you can say that you accept the story by faith – if the church told you 2+2=5 no doubt you would accept that too.

On to what you do say.

You say: One last human example to you: why may one be committed to life in prison for attempted murder when no one died?
No problem here – but an eternal punishment is not proportionate and is an offence to God’s goodness implying that reformation is not possible

You say: Jesus calls Satan a murderer from the very beginning.
Yes, but you still have not answered my key question, which I repeat, ‘Satan was created by a good God with free will – fine – then what possible motive did Satan have to rebel? [Don’t say ‘pride’ because God would not have created him with such a flaw. Until you deal with this vital question, you miss the point[/COLOR].

Thing
You are kind to write such a detailed reply.

1] I have never said that Satan was a robot – he had free will and, according to the story he choose evil.
2] But why did he do so?

[Let me illustrate again. I have free will and tomorrow I am exercising it by choosing to go to the Lake District for a few days. Suppose you asked me why I had chosen to go there, would you be satisfied with the reply, “Because I have free will’. Of course not because you assumed I had free will and want to know what my motive was for using my free will as I did. You wanted an answer like, “I like walking and it is a good place to do that”.
So I do not doubt that Satan had free will – I want to know his motive for using it to reject God
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY – THIS IS THE CRUX OF WHAT I AM SAYING]

3]Usual answer is ‘his pride’. But this gives a problem. A good God would not make a being with that character flaw.

I am now away on holiday but will respond when I return.

Laurie

 

[Thing]

Thing
You are kind to write such a detailed reply.

1] I have never said that Satan was a robot – he had free will and, according to the story he choose evil.
2] But why did he do so?

[Let me illustrate again. I have free will and tomorrow I am exercising it by choosing to go to the Lake District for a few days. Suppose you asked me why I had chosen to go there, would you be satisfied with the reply, “Because I have free will’. Of course not because you assumed I had free will and want to know what my motive was for using my free will as I did. You wanted an answer like, “I like walking and it is a good place to do that”.
So I do not doubt that Satan had free will – I want to know his motive for using it to reject God
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY – THIS IS THE CRUX OF WHAT I AM SAYING]

3]Usual answer is ‘his pride’. But this gives a problem. A good God would not make a being with that character flaw.

I am now away on holiday but will respond when I return.

Laurie

Why are you going on a walking holiday, really?
Here is satan, the greatest, possibly, of the angels God created. He sees his own power and greatness, and God asks him to go fetch. Like you, satan also wants to go on a walking holiday when he feels like going, he is so full of power, perhaps, he even thinks he could be Gods equal. But.
'I am telling you, Laurie, to go to Croydon and start work! ’ Now. You tell me who do I think I am, telling you what to do. You are, as far as you can see, every bit my equal and why the heck should you listen to me, anyway. God does not create satan with a flaw of pride; God created him with the gift of great power, and left him totally free to use the power to serve God who is good.
Jesus Christ, who is actually all-powerful God as a man, showed the true response here to the question of who shall go and serve. Here Jesus [God Himself] voluntarily goes to this work of serving and even finally suffering death;

And I saw a strong angel, proclaiming with a loud voice: Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open the book, nor to see it. 5 And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not; behold the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. 8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: 9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. 10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.