What if the gates of hell were opened and the damned were gotten into heaven?

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Laurie_Gibson said:
Hell is supposed to be 100% awful and everlasting. It is hard to think of anything that merits such a punishment. I may not be a very good person and I may not think that the evidence merits belief in God but I cannot think this merits an eternity of agony!

A fixed term punishment or anihilation would be more proportionate.
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A fixed term punishment would be appropriate If the sin were strictly commited by a limited being against a limited being then the punishment should be limited. but when a limited being, (human) sins against an unlimited being (God) then the punishment is unlimited.
That is if the limited being commits a sin that God determines merits eternal death as in a mortal sin. When the angels were tested one third fell from heaven. They are far different beings than humans. They saw God as He is and knew completely every aspect of their decision to defy God. Their punishment was final and eternal. Humans have not seen God as He is and do not fully understand what it means to sin against God, so God in His love, and mercy knowing this decided to give us a second chance in the person of Jesus. Only an unlimited being, (God) could satisfy the divine demands of justice when a mortal offense is committed against an unlimited being, (God). That is what Jesus did up there on the cross. He satisfied the divine demands of justice that we could not satisfy ourselves.

The will is set at death, either towards God or against God. God will only affirm our decision in life to either accept Him by living as He commands through loving one another and repenting from sin, or reject Him by not living as He commands, and provides a place for either decision.

Being that we are limited and God is unlimited His thoughts are infinitely above ours. Just because we in our limited understanding perceive eternal separation from God for a life of rejection of God, and unrepentant sin as unjust doesn’t make it so. The time for mercy is NOW, not after death.
 
Reason this for us Laurie:
  1. What is any point of leading a good decent life, not breaking any laws if in the end all are saved (i.e. suffer for a ‘time’ - remember no time there - to be admitted later to heaven)?
  2. Adam and Eve ‘just ate a fruit’ and now we have to die?
  3. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham’s children yet not all made it there.
Thing: about Satan is all speculative. No one knows what the test was. Scripture says iniquity was found in him, he was a murderer from the very beginning, and in him there is no truth at all.

Philosophers think his was a ‘non-serviam’ (I shall not serve); wanting to be God apart from God (Michael answered: 'who is like to God?). They also say no one who has been granted Beatific Vision can then fall away (no one in heaven can sin again), therefore Satan and his angels knew God but had not yet seen him face to face.

Free will: It has been given not so that we choose between Good or evil. If that were the case I would be happy and be content with what I chose like if I chose between an ice-cream and a fruit. We have been given free will so that we may choose Good freely. Laurie, I will not be surprised if you were unable to grasp this as you seem unable to grasp even human examples.
 
fms said:
God is just and anyone in the end who persists in rejecting God will end up in hell.

My recent thinking, from earthly observations, has been even if the damned were somehow forced into heaven, they will not get heaven and thus unable to enjoy it. Just as an unchaste person never gets true love and intimacy, a murderer never values life, etc.
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from my personal belief and interpretation

hell and heaven are not places you can simply walk into. there are no gates or walls that separate these two things from one another, that someone can somehow bridge and let people walk from one place to the other

hell, like heaven, is a state. those in hell are eternally separated from God. the pain of this separation from their creator is akin to being inside a lake of fire

heaven is eternal bliss, where you are in the presence of God. there are no more needs or wants, all are fulfilled by God in our midst.

that is why i always rebutt the argument that Christians are only good for fear of being sent to hell. that is not what i believe in. hell is a result of rejecting God. we are not being good because we fear being punished. hell is something we achieve for rejecting God. if your parent tells you not to play with the candle, and you burn your hand, did your parent punish you by burning your hand because you played with the candle? no. it was a consequence of your action, even though someone who knows better told you what would happen. thats the same with hell. i personally believe its not a punishment, but a fate we meet when we choose to reject God. God already told us how bad it is, but we refused to listen.

thats just my two cents. i hope i’m not a heretic for this philosophical viewpoint of mine
 
Correct Choy but not complete. Loss is the main pain but there also a pain ‘akin to fire’. After resurrection, there will be sensory pain.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Hell

1033
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
1034
Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”
1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036
The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

1037
God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

Mortal Sin

1861
Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
 
Thing

Your replies are very interesting and long however I cannot find the answers to my two questions.

1] What was the reason that motivated Satan to rebel?

2] When you answer X [which is usually pride and envy] then answer this vital question. Why would a good God, before the fall make a being who would be motivated by pride and envy?

[And I will remind you of some reasons why Satan would not have been motivated to rebel.

A] He would have been happy in the pre-fall world and realised that he could not have been happier. It is a denial of God’s love to think that an angel could have been exposed to it directly and think for a moment he could be happier elsewhere.
B] You would need an IQ of a turnip not to realise that God is omnipotent and so a rebellion could not succeed]

Cranster

A sin committed by a limited being against an unlimited one merits infinite punishment? This sounds very grand but is gobbledegook! So if I am 100% good except I once stole a penny because I have disobeyed God’s command I merit eternal punishment. Nonsence!

**FMS **
You have tried to change the subject and have not answered my questions. Please refer to the questions above [in red] and answer them. Those are what I have asked and I don’t want to be sidetracked. Sorry.

Now I AM away walking and will answer further points when I return in 10 days.

Best wishes to all

Laurie
 
fms said:
Correct Choy but not complete. Loss is the main pain but there also a pain ‘akin to fire’. After resurrection, there will be sensory pain.

“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”
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Where is it stated that the fire is physical fire? If it is not physical how can the pain be sensory? Do you interpret the whole of the Bible literally?
 
Laurie,

Here is a philosophical angle on the devil:

Devil

Sin/rebellion against God, you are right, we can’t understand how a creature would rebel against God. That’s why it is called the mystery of evil/iniquity Not to understand is one thing and to deny is quite another. Just look at the world…

I would say you are the one dodging and not I.
 
Tonrey,

Weeping and gnashing of teeth would indicate that they quite regret and are sorry for their state. but their choice is now fixed and eternal and so the regret does them no good.

Think of it, satan also knows God exists but his knowledge is not the holy gift of Faith.

Please see below a philosphical treatment of hell:

Hell

Think of it, even know you (body and soul) feel pain when you body is injured.

Christ talks of fearing one (God) who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
 
fms said:
Weeping and gnashing of teeth would indicate that they quite regret and are sorry for their state. but their choice is now fixed and eternal and so the regret does them no good.
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How do you deduce that? If a choice is fixed they no longer have free will, are no longer responsible for what they do and should not be punished for a choice they no longer make.
A finite offence does does not deserve an infinite punishment…
Think of it, satan also knows God exists but his knowledge is not the holy gift of Faith.
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How is this relevant?
Think of it, even know you (body and soul) feel pain when your body is injured.
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So what?
Christ talks of fearing one (God) who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
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Destruction is not the same as everlasting suffering…
Where is it stated that the fire is physical fire? If it is not physical how can the pain be sensory? Do you interpret the whole of the Bible literally?
 
Thing
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Your replies are very interesting and long however I cannot find the answers to my two questions.
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1] What was the reason that motivated Satan to rebel?
Click to expand...
2] When you answer X [which is usually pride and envy] then answer this vital question. Why would a good God, before the fall make a being who would be motivated by pride and envy?
Click to expand...
[And I will remind you of some reasons why Satan would not have been motivated to rebel.
Click to expand...
A] He would have been happy in the pre-fall world and realised that he could not have been happier. It is a denial of God’s love to think that an angel could have been exposed to it directly and think for a moment he could be happier elsewhere.
B] You would need an IQ of a turnip not to realise that God is omnipotent and so a rebellion could not succeed]
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1] What was the reason that motivated Satan to rebel?

When he saw himself he had the freedom to chose to serve himself instead of his creator.

2] When you answer X [which is usually pride and envy] then answer this vital question. Why would a good God, before the fall make a being who would be motivated by pride and envy?

Because He did’nt.

Look at it this way. You were created innocent as an infant. Who created you?, God created you. You became a denier of God later in life. Who created you a denier of God?, you created you a denier of God later in life.
[And I will remind you of some reasons why Satan would not have been motivated to rebel.
Click to expand...
A] He would have been happy in the pre-fall world and realised that he could not have been happier. It is a denial of God’s love to think that an angel could have been exposed to it directly and think for a moment he could be happier elsewhere.
B] You would need an IQ of a turnip not to realise that God is omnipotent and so a rebellion could not succeed]
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Adam and Eve could not have been happier in Eden. However, they fell when satan tempted them. Why did they do that when they could see they were in such an adventageous position.

Why did the angels fail the test when they too were in an advantageous position.

Does it matter why? You already know they fell from grace, that is why you will grow old and sick and eventually die. That is why your neighbour will argue with you, your friend will rob you, and your wife will run off with the rest of your money. Its why your dog dies. Its why your truck cannot be fixed. Its also why you lose your job, nobody can stand the sight of you screaming and bawling your eyes out. Its why the bank takes your house. Its why your doctor shuts the door in your face. Its why the cops poke you with a stick and tell you to move on. Its why you’re a bum. A downandout, burntout, wreck, a husk, a shell of a man, its why there is no future for you. The fall is why your garden grows thistles.

This, of course, does not happen in Eden.
The country record is played backwards in Eden; you don’t grow old and sick, you don’t die, you don’t argue with your neighbour any more, your friend returns what he robbed, your wife comes back, your dog comes back, your truck gets fixed… etc., etc.

We are in this particular world because the angel satan fell. I do not understand your need to know what his reason was.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Thing

Cranster

A sin committed by a limited being against an unlimited one merits infinite punishment? This sounds very grand but is gobbledegook! So if I am 100% good except I once stole a penny because I have disobeyed God’s command I merit eternal punishment. Nonsence!

**FMS **
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The sin must be a mortal sin to merit eternal separation from God. The likelyhood of amassing a mortal sin or two during a lifetime is pretty high for most people especially in our modern society. Without a repentant heart and the Sacrament of Reconciliation to get rid of the consequences of those sins they remain and will follow the person into death. You probably wouldn’t be sent to hell for stealing one penny, but I highly doubt there is anyone alive that is only guilty of stealing one penny.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Mr Spock

I do not understand your question captain! People in Hell are in torment and, I assume, bitterly regret being there. God is not merciful if he leaves them there when he can do something about it. What am I missing that motivates the question?.
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But if God were to relieve the suffering of those in Hell, would that not qualify as and act of love otherwise known as mercy?

🤷
 
Tonyrey,

You are Catholic so please refer to the relevant section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Laurie,

For us to live this life, we must be born into it and be born to it alive! If we are still born, we will never see the light of day.

To die in mortal (causing death) sin is to pass to the other side without having eternal life. In that eternal life, it is God himself who is the Sun that shines forever (endless day) on those saved.

It is very twisted logic and reasoning to try frame this as God not being merciful and ‘not doing anything about the supposed plight’ of those in hell.

He has the power but they won’t let him. Hell is bolted from the inside.

The other statement of ‘mortal sin’ not being big/bad enough to cast one in hell forever is just unconscionable.

Sin is very serious: an offence against an infinitely good God (God is all powerful, does whatever he pleases yet never commits the tiniest of sins). It required none other than God himself to pay the full penalty of sin (and then some).

Sin has repercussions in the mystical body of Christ and the whole of humanity to the end of time.

Think of the actions of Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Think of those very grave sins of those scandalous - deserving a mill hung around their necks and drowned - Catholic priests with the young ones under their care. Think of the one who commits treacherous murder towards one’s neighbor or injures him with adultery, thus altering the life of his neighbor and his family forever.

You say God is not merciful if these were committed to hell forever.

From Faith we have that one unrepentant mortal sin is deserving of hell.

Yet God is indeed merciful, if these all repent before their death, he will welcome them to live with him forever.
 
Won’t happen…why?..God is all loving…but he’s also all Just…next question.
 
momor said:
Hi Spock,
It’s more like His Mercy is His Justice, His Justice is His Mercy.
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Fascinating! Some say Justice is the righteous opposite of Mercy. But you seem to disagree (and I suspect you are correct). But I’d like to hear your reasoning, Momor. Please tell me why you believe Justice is not opposed to Mercy.
 
spockrates said:
Fascinating! Some say Justice is the righteous opposite of Mercy. But you seem to disagree (and I suspect you are correct). But I’d like to hear your reasoning, Momor. Please tell me why you believe Justice is not opposed to Mercy.
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When Adam and Eve sinned God cast them out of Eden and closed the gates of heaven. Because He was God He could not reverse His perfectly just sentence. But God loved them still and desired to bestow His mercy on man. What to do? The only thing His justice and mercy could do. Redeem man by the blood of His only begotten Son. Hence His justice (man could not redeem himself) was also His mercy (only God Himself could redeem man).

I know that is a poor explanation but I’m not good at putting deep thoughts into words. It’s just something I ‘understand’ interiorly.
 
momor said:
When Adam and Eve sinned God cast them out of Eden and closed the gates of heaven. Because He was God He could not reverse His perfectly just sentence. But God loved them still and desired to bestow His mercy on man. What to do? The only thing His justice and mercy could do. Redeem man by the blood of His only begotten Son. Hence His justice (man could not redeem himself) was also His mercy (only God Himself could redeem man).

I know that is a poor explanation but I’m not good at putting deep thoughts into words. It’s just something I ‘understand’ interiorly.
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Not poor at all, Momor!

👍

For Adam and Eve, and for the living like you and me, God shows both mercy and justice. Would you say the following is true?

**mercy **= treating someone better than she deserves

and

**justice **= treating someone with the fairness she deserves
 
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