What if the gates of hell were opened and the damned were gotten into heaven?

[momor]

Not poor at all, Momor!



For Adam and Eve, and for the living like you and me, God shows both mercy and justice. Would you say the following is true?

**mercy **= treating someone better than she deserves

and

**justice **= treating someone with the fairness she deserves

Yes.

 

[spockrates]

Yes.

Yes, so would I; at least at the moment this sounds true. Would you say then that God showed mercy to Adam and Eve by treating them better than they deserved? And would you also say that God was just in His treatment of Adam and Eve by showing them the fairness they deserved (or perhaps more fairness than they deserved)?

 

[momor]

Yes, so would I; at least at the moment this sounds true. Would you say then that God showed mercy to Adam and Eve by treating them better than they deserved?

Affirmative. By offending God, Adam and Eve didn’t deserve mercy but they received it anyway, as pure gift.

And would you also say that God was just in His treatment of Adam and Eve by showing them the fairness they deserved?

**Affirmative. God’s justice was in His sentence which was fair, even absent any mercy. **

 

[spockrates]

I affirm your affirmations!



It seems, then, that Justice is giving people* at least* what they deserve. For mercy is giving people better than they deserve, but God’s mercy was just. Can I have another affirmative?

 

[momor]

I affirm your affirmations!



It seems, then, that Justice is giving people* at least* what they deserve. For mercy is giving people better than they deserve, but God’s mercy was just. Can I have another affirmative?

Don’t forget tomorrow is Divine Mercy Sunday. Be sure to swim in His Ocean of Mercy.

 

[spockrates]

Don’t forget tomorrow is Divine Mercy Sunday. Be sure to swim in His Ocean of Mercy.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

To those who have been kind enough to try and answer my question. Let me try and explain my question again because you are not understanding it. I will take it a step at a time.

1] You and I agree that Satan had free will.

2] You and I also agree that this means he has the ability to choose evil.

3] OK, so now I come to my question, ‘Why did he use his free will to choose evil?

Let me explain with an illustration. I have free will and so I could choose to rob an old lady. But, if I did so it would be a fair question to ask why I did so. The reply’ because he had free will’ does not explain WHY I did it, it only explains that I had the capability to do it.

4] Now this question is particularly hard because he was a great angel created by God and so would have realised that his true happiness lay in continued communion with God and, as a three year old child would know, a rebellion against an omnipotent God MUST fail.

5] The usual answer to the first point is that Satan was proud but a good God would not have created a being with this evil character flaw. Nor would God have created a great angel so stupid as not to realise the points made in 4] above.

6] Now you can just reply that this the story your church accepts PERIOD, so there must be some explanation OR

7] You could conclude that the story does not hang together and is therefore false

[the same problem arises re Adam and Eve and also the other angels that were supposed to have revolted in a perfect heaven]

 

[tonyrey]

To those who have been kind enough to try and answer my question. Let me try and explain my question again because you are not understanding it. I will take it a step at a time.

Because he knew he would be absolutely free and subject to no higher authority.

Let me explain with an illustration. I have free will and so I could choose to rob an old lady. But, if I did so it would be a fair question to ask why I did so. The reply’ because he had free will’ does not explain WHY I did it, it only explains that I had the capability to do it.

You decided you wanted the money even though it involved robbing her.

4] Now this question is particularly hard because he was a great angel created by God and so would have realised that his true happiness lay in continued communion with God and, as a three year old child would know, a rebellion against an omnipotent God MUST fail.

Rebellion does not entail complete failure. Satan was successful in obtaining his independence.

 

[fms]

Laurie, did you read post #48?

Also freedom/free will is a gift from God to choose Good freely not to choose between Good and evil,

When created creatures choose evil over Good, they are not exercising freedom but rather abusing/misusing their freedom/free will.

I notice also that you did not talk about eternal condemnation/punishment in you latest post.

No comments on post #54?

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

REPLY FOR TONREY

Thanks for your answer.

I asked why Satan used his free will to choose evil

And you replied: Because he knew he would be absolutely free and subject to no higher authority.

But this answer is not satisfactory for at least three reasons.

1] Living in a perfect Heaven in a loving communion with God he knows that things cannot be improved and so has no reason to want to change matters.
2] Loving God more than anything why would he consider a rebellion. [Illustration: I love my wife and her love makes my life – why would I consider for a moment becoming free of her?]
3] Any rebellion must fail – God is omnipotent.

[Your reply about the old lady is fine. My point was, if I robbed an old lady, the answer ‘I did it because I had free will’ would not be considered enough. But, for example, ‘because I needed the money’ would be an answer. Fine we agree on that! Now back to Satan – we cannot explain his rebellion solely be reference to his free will, we need to supply a reason as well. You have tried BUT, see above, I do not think you have managed to do so convincingly yet]

You also say;
Rebellion does not entail complete failure. Satan was successful in obtaining his independence.

This is a very interesting reply because, in effect, you are saying that Satan’s motivation was a desire for impendence and that, at first sight does not seem to be a fault. OK so let’s ask this question, ‘is a desire for independence a bad thing?’

Suppose you say, ‘Yes’ on the grounds that it must be wrong to rebel against God. In that case we are back with my question as to why a good God would make a being with a desire to do wrong PLUS – look at 1], 2] and 3] above.

Suppose you say ‘No’ because it is not wrong for a young person, for example, to want to be independent. So the situation would have been parallel to:

!8 year old Son: Dad, I love you and you have taught me everything, but now I would like to live independently. Of course I will keep in touch and ask your advice…
Dad: Son, go with my blessing and financial assistance. Come back whenever you like and keep in touch – good luck!

But this just does not fit the Satan story which has not just a desire for independence but a desire to to wrong, a rebellion and God casting Satan out for ever.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

REPLY TO FMS PERSON

Post 48

You are correct – you have a choice either it is nonsense and so the story is to be rejected OR it just looks like nonsense and though you cannot explain why it is not nonsense, nevertheless you have faith.

You can go for the second. Personally I have faith that 2+2=5 and that the moon is made of green cheese!

Post 54

I have great problems with this post. However the post does not answer the point I am making about the reasons that Satan had for rebelling – so let us deal with that.

All the best,

Laurie

 

[tonyrey]

I asked why Satan used his free will to choose evil

And you replied: Because he knew he would be absolutely free and subject to no higher authority.

But this answer is not satisfactory for at least three reasons.

Living in a perfect Heaven in a loving communion with God he knows that things cannot be improved and so has no reason to want to change matters.

Thanks for your reply, Laurie.

Even if we are in heaven we are not omniscient. We cannot know everything and so we do not necessarily know things cannot be improved. And even if we do we are not obliged to be reasonable. Free will implies that we can, and often do, choose to be unreasonable - as when we succumb to temptation knowing full well we are being foolish…

2] Loving God more than anything why would he consider a rebellion. [Illustration: I love my wife and her love makes my life – why would I consider for a moment becoming free of her?things cannot be improved.]

You think that now but you are human… You are not immune to temptation in other respects… Is it impossible for you ever to change your mind? If so how do you know that? Are you infallible?

3] Any rebellion must fail – God is omnipotent.

It does fail but is not a complete failure. You will have obtained what you choose to have: independence at a price…

Your reply about the old lady is fine. My point was, if I robbed an old lady, the answer ‘I did it because I had free will’ would not be considered enough. But, for example, ‘because I needed the money’ would be an answer. Fine we agree on that! Now back to Satan – we cannot explain his rebellion solely be reference to his free will, we need to supply a reason as well. You have tried BUT, see above, I do not think you have managed to do so convincingly yet]

I have explained why it is convincing.

This is a very interesting reply because, in effect, you are saying that Satan’s motivation was a desire for independence and that, at first sight does not seem to be a fault. OK so let’s ask this question, ‘is a desire for independence a bad thing?’

Desire for independence is not a bad thing but desire for total independence from God is because it implies filial ingratitude.

Suppose you say, ‘Yes’ on the grounds that it must be wrong to rebel against God. In that case we are back with my question as to why a good God would make a being with a desire to do wrong PLUS – look at 1], 2] and 3] above.

God does not make a being with a desire to do wrong but with the power to choose to do wrong.

Suppose you say ‘No’ because it is not wrong for a young person, for example, to want to be independent. So the situation would have been parallel to:

!8 year old Son: Dad, I love you and you have taught me everything, but now I would like to live independently. Of course I will keep in touch and ask your advice…
Dad: Son, go with my blessing and financial assistance. Come back whenever you like and keep in touch – good luck!

But this just does not fit the Satan story which has not just a desire for independence but a desire to do wrong, a rebellion and God casting Satan out for ever.

The essential differences are:

1. Satan casts himself out.
2. Satan does not want to keep in touch.
3. Satan does not want to return to heaven.
4. Satan loves himself more than anyone else and cannot tolerate a rival.
5. Satan loves himself so much he is miserable because he is never satisfied.
6. Satan hates himself because he knows he is the cause of his own misery.
7. Satan chooses to be miserable because he wants to be absolutely free.
8. Satan is prepared to pay the price of being miserable because his absolute freedom gives him enormous pleasure knowing he is a rival to God.
9. Satan knows he is doing wrong but he is not compelled to do what is right any more than we are.
10. Satan knows he still depends on God for his existence and power but he knows God is so loving He will never take away that power because without free will he will never have the opportunity to repent and return to God - who says in effect “Come back, son, whenever you like and are prepared to love others as much as you love yourself!”

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Many thanks for your further response;

You say:
Even if we are in heaven we are not omniscient. We cannot know everything and so we do not necessarily know things cannot be improved. And even if we do we are not obliged to be reasonable. Free will implies that we can, and often do, choose to be unreasonable - as when we succumb to temptation knowing full well we are being foolish…

Of course Satan would not know everything but he would know that matters could not be improved. He was living in perfect bliss in the presence and love of God. Second, as Satan was created as a wise and powerful angel he would not ever act unreasonably. God would have made him defective otherwise. Third, there is no ‘temptation to succumb to’ because to leave God’s presence could have no attractions for him whatsoever.

You say;
Desire for independence is not a bad thing but desire for total independence from God is because it implies filial ingratitude.

A being such as I describe, in the situation I describe would not have the desire to display ‘filial ingratitude’.

You say:
God does not make a being with a desire to do wrong but with the power to choose to do wrong.

I AGREE! I AGREE! But the question is why did he use his power in the way he did and you still have not given me a plausible reason.

You say that the difference between Satan wanting independence from God and a young man wanting independence from his father are;

1. Satan casts himself out. WHY?
2. Satan does not want to keep in touch. WHY?
3. Satan does not want to return to heaven. WHY?
4. Satan loves himself more than anyone else and cannot tolerate a rival. WHY?
5. Satan loves himself so much he is miserable because he is never satisfied. GOD WOULD NOT HAVE CREATED A BEING WHO WAS SELFISH
6. Satan hates himself because he knows he is the cause of his own misery. BUT HE ALSO KNOWS GOD WILL FORGIVE AND SO SATAN COULD BE HAPPY AGAIN
7. Satan chooses to be miserable because he wants to be absolutely free. WHY, WHEN HE KNOWS HE WOULD BE HAPPIER IN GOD’S PRESENCE?
8. Satan is prepared to pay the price of being miserable because his absolute freedom gives him enormous pleasure knowing he is a rival to God. WELL HE CANNOT BE BOTH MISERABLE AND GETTING ENORMOUS PLEASURE FROM BEING A RIVAL TO GOD – WHICH IS IT?9. Satan knows he is doing wrong but he is not compelled to do what is right any more than we are. WHY CHOOSE TO DO WRONG WHEN YOU ARE IN A BLISSFUL STATE?
9. Satan knows he still depends on God for his existence and power but he knows God is so loving He will never take away that power because without free will he will never have the opportunity to repent and return to God - who says in effect “Come back, son, whenever you like and are prepared to love others as much as you love yourself!” I DO NOT QUITE UNDERSTAND. YOU SEEM TO SAY THAT SATAN DOES STILL HAVE FREE WILL, COULD REPENT AND GOD WOULD FORGIVE. WELL REALISING HIS DREADFUL POSITION THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

Sorry the story just does not stack up. The crux is that a being in prefect communion would NEVER have any of the desires you outline above. He has the ability to make such choices but he never would because he would have no reason to do so and loads of reasons not to!
Regards

Laurie

 

[Thing]

As I understand it the angels were judged. That is, they were created and in an instant, judged. Angels are not robots, they are individuals with their own strengths. They are free, like us.
Once judged they remain in their choice forever. God could produce every conceivable type of personality of angel, as in humans also. Angels are not cookie-cutter personalities. Here was a personality juddering on the brink of greatness, it could go either way. Was there hell on the other choice, did hell exist at that point. Why would he choose a horrible hell instead of heaven. Perhaps he did not. If hell was not yet there. If hell was something created by satan or created because of satan.
So, what were his motivations behind his choice at his judgement. What were the reasons preventing him from obeying God, from serving Him. There was no down-side, apparently, no hell or punishment just the choice of a good God or… but, who wants to think about satan, far less the reasons for his failure to pass the test. Though, I suspect, that like yourself, he was presented with a choice and no downside which he believed in or could see. Perhaps he saw he could make things as he wished instead of the way they were wished to be made. Perhaps your favoured idea that there is no hell will prevent you from being told otherwise. Perhaps the lie you decide is more seductive than the question from God is attractive.

I don’t know, is very strange. Here we are two free people, told the very same thing; but where one accepts what he is told the other creates an alternative thing. But one must be a lie, I suppose, if there is a Truth in Creation.
I think he was called the father of lies.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Hello thing and thanks.

The difference between us is that you believe the story but find it ‘very strange’ whereas I do not believe it because it seems rather unlikely.

Best wishes

Laurie

 

[Thing]

Hello thing and thanks.

The difference between us is that you believe the story but find it ‘very strange’ whereas I do not believe it because it seems rather unlikely.

Best wishes

Laurie

Yes it is very strange, life itself is very strange.
You choose something you prefer in a strange existance as opposed to something taught by revelation to this very strange world. We need to know your reasons for choosing yourself over another. This has nothing to do with how strange or reasonable a thing sounds in such a strange reality.

 

[mardukm]

PUHLEEEESE! Everyone knows that if the Gates or Hell are opened, then we have a ZOMBIE PROBLEM on earth!!!

Heaven itself will always remain impregnable.

Blessings

 

[tonyrey]

Even if we are in heaven we are not omniscient. We cannot know everything and so we do not necessarily know things cannot be improved. And even if we do we are not obliged to be reasonable. Free will implies that we can, and often do, choose to be unreasonable - as when we succumb to temptation knowing full well we are being foolish…

If he is genuinely free he can choose not to live in perfect bliss but have the **excitement **of being his own boss. Evil is often very attractive and seductive…

Second, as Satan was created as a wise and powerful angel he would not ever act unreasonably.

If he is genuinely free he can choose to act unreasonably at any moment.

God would have made him defective otherwise. Third, there is no ‘temptation to succumb to’ because to leave God’s presence could have no attractions for him whatsoever.

It has the tremendous attraction of being absolutely free!

Desire for independence is not a bad thing but desire for total independence from God is because it implies filial ingratitude.

A being such as I describe, in the situation I describe would not have the desire to display ‘filial ingratitude’.

I’m afraid that is only your notion of Satan…

God does not make a being with a desire to do wrong but with the power to choose to do wrong.

I AGREE! I AGREE! But the question is why did he use his power in the way he did and you still have not given me a plausible reason.

Is the desire for** total independence** not a plausible reason? Don’t you find it tempting to be your own boss all the time and absolutely free to do what you like?

You say that the difference between Satan wanting independence from God and a young man wanting independence from his father are;

1. Satan casts himself out. WHY?
2. Satan does not want to keep in touch. WHY?
3. Satan does not want to return to heaven. WHY?
4. Satan loves himself more than anyone else and cannot tolerate a rival. WHY?

The desire for** total independence **…

1. Satan loves himself so much he is miserable because he is never satisfied.

GOD WOULD NOT HAVE CREATED A BEING WHO WAS SELFISH

If you are genuinely free of course you can and do choose to be selfish.

1. Satan hates himself because he knows he is the cause of his own misery. BUT HE ALSO KNOWS GOD WILL FORGIVE AND SO SATAN COULD BE HAPPY AGAIN

But he prefers to pay the price of total independence.

1. Satan chooses to be miserable because he wants to be absolutely free.

WHY, WHEN HE KNOWS HE WOULD BE HAPPIER IN GOD’S PRESENCE?

Pleasure and disobedience are often more enticing and exciting than happiness.

1. Satan is prepared to pay the price of being miserable because his absolute freedom gives him enormous pleasure knowing he is a rival to God.

WELL HE CANNOT BE BOTH MISERABLE AND GETTING ENORMOUS PLEASURE FROM BEING A RIVAL TO GOD – WHICH IS IT?

Don’t you ever have mixed feelings? Feeling guilty when having pleasure?

1. Satan knows he is doing wrong but he is not compelled to do what is right any more than we are.

WHY CHOOSE TO DO WRONG WHEN YOU ARE IN A BLISSFUL STATE?

That often happens in this world. For the excitement and the enjoyment of being a devil!

1. Satan knows he still depends on God for his existence and power but he knows God is so loving He will never take away that power because without free will he will never have the opportunity to repent and return to God - who says in effect “Come back, son, whenever you like and are prepared to love others as much as you love yourself!”

I DO NOT QUITE UNDERSTAND. YOU SEEM TO SAY THAT SATAN DOES STILL HAVE FREE WILL, COULD REPENT AND GOD WOULD FORGIVE. WELL REALISING HIS DREADFUL POSITION THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

Not necessarily. A possibility is not a certainty… Our free will is an unconditional gift.

Sorry the story just does not stack up. The crux is that a being in perfect communion would NEVER have any of the desires you outline above. He has the ability to make such choices but he never would because he would have no reason to do so and loads of reasons not to!

You are underestimating the power and the attraction of evil which surrounds us in this world. Why do you think there is so much cruelty, injustice, violence and bloodshed? Many people have everything they could want but they are never justified. They want more land, wealth, women, property, power and control over others. Who is responsible? Innocent little creatures? Or devils in human form?

 

[tonyrey]

PUHLEEEESE! Everyone knows that if the Gates or Hell are opened, then we have a ZOMBIE PROBLEM on earth!!!

Heaven itself will always remain impregnable.

Blessings

The Gates of Hell are open… but it’s far easier to get in than out…

 

[tonyrey]

Many people have everything they could want but they are never justified.

They are not justified - because it is at the expense of others - but neither are they satisfied!
The more they have…