What if there is only one Christian Church.

[john_ennis]

allischalmers:

In the first three hundred years of Christianity no bishop of anywhere ever claimed to have supremacy or authority over other bishops or their churches.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Surely you’ve seen what Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon, was writing at the end of the second century re all churches agreeing with the Church of Rome. His assertion that that church, which is made visible by the successor of Peter at its head (he lists the popes thus far), is “Where orthodoxy lies,” was made as if it were nothing novel.

I’m not aware of any protest or correction coming from the Spirit-led Body of Christ during succeeding centuries–are you?

Peace
John

 

[Contarini]

Kitty Chan:

Hey Contarini in a nutshell whos Contarini and Pole??

oh and ps I found that Luther did make that quote
(hope thats ok renton)

en.thinkexist.com/quotation/here_i_stand-i_can_do_no_other-god_help_me-amen/255741.html

Kitty,

The words are not in the oldest accounts of what Luther said at the Diet of Worms. They were added in later, which is why most scholars think he didn’t say them.

Gasparo Contarini and Reginald Pole were Catholic cardinals (Pole almost became Pope but he lost by one vote) who thought the Protestants had gotten a lot right with regard to justification by faith. They were loyal Catholics and thought the Protestants were guilty of schism (Pole helped persecute Protestants in England, and Contarini scuttled an attempt at compromise with the Protestants by insisting on the term “transubstantiation”), but they argued that the Catholic Church should take what was good in Protestant teaching instead of throwing it all out.

Edwin

 

[happymomoftwo]

It seems arrogant, in my opinon, for anybody to say that their church or denomination is the only path to God. We can’t know that.

We don’t have to agree with what others believe. But we should at least respect them.

 

[renton]

Well said Edwin. I get the feeling from different readings that quite a few people in the vatican agreed with Luther on more than one or two things. Most realized the need for some reform within the church itself. If people on both sides, Catholic and Protestant had been a bit more open to dialogue than who knows where we would be today. Things dont change, people in churches today are too quick to seperate and form there own church than to try and change things from within. We need to remember that as humans were all stained with the sin of pride and it’s hard to break. Hopefully in the future the vatican will be more open to the idea of reconciliation than they have been in the past. I know the council of Trent certainly did not help like Edwin was saying.

 

[renton]

Sorry my previous quote was wrong, apparantly this is what was said by Luther and sums up exactly why the reformation happened, depending on who you ask i guess though “Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen.” Basicly the Bible is our guide in life and practice since it’s inspired by the very breath of God and I think to put man’s idea’s or beliefs on the same level as the Bible is wrong. But of course tradition has some weight on the beliefs of Christianity.

 

[john_ennis]

happymomoftwo:

It seems arrogant, in my opinon, for anybody to say that their church or denomination is the only path to God. We can’t know that.

We don’t have to agree with what others believe. But we should at least respect them.

Agreed–it seems arrogant. That doesn’t mean it is arrogant, though. I mean, it’s possible to believe, for example, that Christ saves through the Catholic Church, and to believe it not because of arrogant pride, but sincerely.

Kind of like, it seems arrogant to many others that we all believe Jesus is the only way to salvation, but it doesn’t mean we are actually being arrogant (even less does it mean that we’re necessarily wrong–does it?).

Peace.
John

 

[Contarini]

happymomoftwo:

It seems arrogant, in my opinon, for anybody to say that their church or denomination is the only path to God. We can’t know that.

Actually, I think it would be more arrogant for Catholics to say that they are not the true Church. That would imply that modern Catholics are more enlightened and know better than their forebears in the Faith.

I’m not sure even the Pope would say exactly that Catholicism is the “only path to God.” He would say, I think, that all truth leads to God, but that any truth leads us to a deeper conversion and openness to all truth, and this eventually leads to Jesus Christ and to the historical community founded on faith in Christ.

(I’ve been reading his book Truth and Tolerance and this is my understanding of what he is saying there.)

Edwin

 

[renton]

I think it’s the fundamentalist group who would be guilty of that type of arrogance. I have many friends from that background and they have no problem saying only people who are “born again” and go to a good Bible believing church, ie. baptist, can be real christians and go to heaven.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Kitty Chan:

you did get renton was defending catholics he knows, right??

Yes. He’s saying that he knows of some “true believing” Catholics as well as some that aren’t. Along with “true believers” of other denominations. Who gave him the authority to determine who a “true believer” is? What criteria is he using?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

JSmitty2005:

Yes. He’s saying that he knows of some “true believing” Catholics as well as some that aren’t. Along with “true believers” of other denominations. Who gave him the authority to determine who a “true believer” is? What criteria is he using?

Well renton said

I also believe that we still must consider Catholics as brothers in Christ despite our differances. It’s wrong to say you cant be a true Christian if your a RC. I’ve heard allot of people say that and it makes me sad to hear it as I’ve met many true believers who were Roman Catholic. Anyways thats how I view things after several years of praying and reading over the matter.

The clue I saw in what he said I have bolded, I guess we could ask him about any specifics.

Mine would be to see how a person considers Christ, if they thought He was the Son of God. For a starting position of understanding a person I start if they agree with the creed and go from there.

Now unless there is a catholic “rule” of some sort and the words true believing or true believer have some weight Im unaware of?

As for authority it would be Christ, He was the one to tell us to test all things. Im not sure its so much authority as following directions.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

renton:

I think it’s the fundamentalist group who would be guilty of that type of arrogance. I have many friends from that background and they have no problem saying only people who are “born again” and go to a good Bible believing church, ie. baptist, can be real christians and go to heaven.

The more I find out about others thoughts Im concluding that this arrogance has no demonational or church borders. It seems to penetrate into every faith group from a to z.

Everyone wants to be a member of the best club and wants to prove it. I guess its human nature. (It doesnt quite fit) but I think of when your in the swamp up to your knees in alligators, its hard to remember the first goal was to drain the swamp.

 

[thogg85]

sadie2723:

What if there is only one Christian church…

I understand that Catholics sincerely believe that this church is the one and only church that Jesus founded. But what if there truly was only one Christian church - the entire body of Jesus followers. What if God were bigger than our idea of the Catholic church? What if in heaven’s scheme of things he founded the universal catholic church (small c) allowing that in form and function the church would split and change? What if he were more concerned about true faith that comes from a repentant sinner than about what church one belongs to? Do we spend so much time arguing about the right church that we forget that there is a lost world of people going to hell? I wonder which Jesus is more concerned with?

 

[inJESUS]

But what if there truly was only one Christian church - the entire body of Jesus followers.

agree. Bless you.

What if he were more concerned about true faith that comes from a repentant sinner than about what church one belongs to? Do we spend so much time arguing about the right church that we forget that there is a lost world of people going to hell? I wonder which Jesus is more concerned with?

agree. Bless you.

Praying for the unity of Lord Jesus’ believers

 

[inJESUS]

Kitty Chan:

The more I find out about others thoughts Im concluding that this arrogance has no demonational or church borders. It seems to penetrate into every faith group from a to z.

Everyone wants to be a member of the best club and wants to prove it. I guess its human nature. (It doesnt quite fit) but I think of when your in the swamp up to your knees in alligators, its hard to remember the first goal was to drain the swamp.

i want all the belivers in Lord Jesus to be united, just like early Christians

 

[believers]

inJESUS:

i want all the belivers in Lord Jesus to be united, just like early Christians

All true believers in Lord Jesus are united. True Christians love God above all and love one another as Jesus commanded. If I love you and you love me then how can we not be united? I believe true Christians have an inherent quality of love in what is thought, felt, said, & done.

Jesus taught about this love His entire life. Then He showed us on the cross. Jesus did not leave anything out before He died. Everything He wanted us to know was told to us in the Holy Bible. Now, its a matter of faith.

 

[believers]

sadie2723:

Ok, I have been thinking about this, and in light of certain events, I have decided that this is the time to raise the question. Here goes.

sadie2723:

What if there is only one Christian church…the Catholic church. Just assume for a second that Jesus ordained the church and that was just what he intended. Now, being that we have free will to do what we want, some people determined that they did not want to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church…and through it the teachings of Jesus. So, they break with the church in the 1500’s, and in doing so…they defy Jesus and his teaching.

What then?

sadie2723:

Bottom line here is this, we all believe that the teaching of Christ should be followed. Well, if he told us to establish the Catholic Church and people broke with it, those people have gone against him.

Has anyone considered this?

Jesus taught us HOW to be faithful Christians. If you believe in Him and His teachings then you are part of His Church. He never told anyone to establish the Catholic church. Jesus never said if you break away from the Catholic church you go against Him. However, if you break away from your faith in Jesus, you break away from His Church.

 

[Contarini]

thogg85:

But what if there truly was only one Christian church - the entire body of Jesus followers.

I believe that is true. But then we need to act like it.

What if God were bigger than our idea of the Catholic church?

That’s empty rhetoric because no one disputes it.

What if in heaven’s scheme of things he founded the universal catholic church (small c) allowing that in form and function the church would split and change?

God foreknew all our sins and errors. But division among believers is sin. No exceptions, no excuses.

What if he were more concerned about true faith that comes from a repentant sinner than about what church one belongs to?

Jesus shed His blood on the Cross to gather together God’s children into one Body. Everything we do that divides that Body is a horrendous sin against God. Faith and repentance are the means by which we enter the Body. Salvation consists in membership in the Body. (And no, I don’t mean by “membership in the Body” being on the rolls of some particular organization. But a membership in the Body that has no concrete expression is pretty empty.)

Do we spend so much time arguing about the right church that we forget that there is a lost world of people going to hell? I wonder which Jesus is more concerned with?

It’s Jesus’ job to keep people from going to hell. It’s our job to live as the Body of Christ, witnessing to Jesus. That is the part we are called to play in saving people from hell.

Edwin

 

[theguidedheart]

ReformedCatholic:

This is how I’ve grown to understand the meaning also. Christ’s "body’ or “church” comprises all of Christianity (that adheres to the Two Great Commandments, and the beatitudes, forgiveness… the basics).

This would make Jesus quite a case for schitzophrenia, because each of the some 26,000 churches out there are divided among beliefs and practice.

 

[theguidedheart]

believers:

Jesus taught us HOW to be faithful Christians. If you believe in Him and His teachings then you are part of His Church. He never told anyone to establish the Catholic church. Jesus never said if you break away from the Catholic church you go against Him. However, if you break away from your faith in Jesus, you break away from His Church.

Jesus was the bridegroom, His Church was His bride, it was part of his plan that he be united with us in the New Covenant until he returns again, and he does this in a very loving way by establishing His Church. Now just like Jesus repeatidly spoke out against divorce, divorce from His Church, is divorce from Him. Jesus and his Church have become ONE (there are plenty of passages in Scripture which point to this), and what has been brought together by God, can not be divided by man. If marriage in the flesh was this important to Jesus, would not marriage in the spirit be even MORE important? We can not be married to thousands of different beliefs, we need to be devoted to ONE, and we do this through His Church which he will guide until the end of time.

 

[scylla]

Accepting the divisions as good is simply evil.

Now saying that they are bad and persisting in promoting them is a contradiction.

The reason I said divisions are bad, as any sort of belief that truth can be of personal interpretation or preference denies that Truth can be known. Jesus said that He came to testify to the truth. So since He did, and Truth can be known then it isn’t opinion or different truth for different people.

So either Jesus founded a Church or He didn’t.
One is true one is a lie denying the Gospel.

Either Jesus founded a Church that would have no divisions.
Either it is ok to have divisions or not.

Jesus came to testify to the truth and it can be known.
So either truth exists and is knowable or believe what you want we all go to heaven anyways.

Either we have an affirmation of belief that truth is one and knowable or we have a denial and personal preference.

In Christ
Scylla