what if you were in our (womens') shoes?

[Kleftiko]

The OP contains perceived good fortunes of other.

I guess that’s where we differ on this point. I think that reserving the right to be submitted to; to assume all leadership roles; to speak at a faction that is equally important to men and women is a material, not perceived, fortune/advantage. The power differential is not imagined.

That is right, I never gave my position but it didn’t stop you from attacking it.

Haha I guess not. Mea Culpa.

I never said that viagra being equal to birth control was your position, but it is the position of gender feminists.

Yeah? And are you going to explain this position a little bit for me? It would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Stephen168]

I guess that’s where we differ on this point. I think that reserving the right to be submitted to; to assume all leadership roles; to speak at a faction that is equally important to men and women is a material, not perceived, fortune/advantage. The power differential is not imagined.

I know you differ with me, and many other men and woman that have posted on this thread. Women that have said power is not important. Men and women that do not have these perceived roles in their relationships, or care if they did. Men who know this ‘power’ of which you speak is a perception. For the OP to suggest ALL is envy.

 

[Kleftiko]

I know you differ with me,

Actually, I differ FROM you. LOLOLOLOOOLLOLOL!!!11!!!1

and many other men and woman that have posted on this thread. Women that have said power is not important. Men and women that do not have these perceived roles in their relationships, or care if they did. Men who know this ‘power’ of which you speak is a perception. For the OP to suggest ALL is envy.

Hmm, you say perception, but the effects are quite obviously material. The stipulations are actual. I’d be willing to let you argue (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that, as God’s children, men and women are equal in dignity, but not equal in power (or at least not as outlined by the cherry-picked scriptures addressed in the original post).

 

[Stephen168]

Actually, I differ FROM you. LOLOLOLOOOLLOLOL!!!11!!!1

Are you from New England?

Hmm, you say perception, but the effects are quite obviously material. The stipulations are actual. I’d be willing to let you argue (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that, as God’s children, men and women are equal in dignity, but not equal in **power **(or at least not as outlined by the cherry-picked scriptures addressed in the original post).

Some women believe **power **(ability to act) is the only thing worth having, they perceive men as having power, and they don’t believe there is any biological difference as to why they too can not act (power) like men. Of course they are not men, can not be men (act like men), and seemed to be frustrated unhappy people.

 

[Curious_Seed]

I sometimes wonder why so many don’t understand why some women may become a bit demoralized by the passages in the bible that refer to us. Put yourself in this world, in the world that women live in. Imagine that this is how things were, not that you WERE a woman, but a man, in this situation.

---

You are married to a wonderful woman (you took her last name). You have a couple of great kids. After your wife had them, she went back to work, for she is the breadwinner. Your primary role is to be the father. So when she goes off to work, you stay home with the children.

The whole family goes to church together on Sundays. You listen to the female priest give the sermon, because in this world the bible is clear that the church is domain of the woman, and the church is “her” husband. After all the bible states “let your men be kept silent in churches : for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their wives at home: for it is a shame for men to speak in the church.” It is not god’s will that men be ordained, because after all, Jesus picked only women apostles.

You are not bitter about this, though, because you know that men and women have different roles. Women are called to the church and to be the head of the family (“the head of ever woman is Christ, and the head of the man is the woman” and “for the woman is not of the man, but the man for the woman. Neither was created for the man, but the man for the woman” as is seen in the bible) and men are called to the family and to be fathers. You are equal, but just have different roles.

You and your wife have a pretty equal partnership, but as the bible commands you to do, you allow her to make the big decisions and head the family. "Let the men learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a man to teach, nor to usurp authority over the woman, but to be in silence. For Eve was first formed, then Adam.” Because of the many passages like this, you accept that sometimes you must submit to her.

---

I mean, i just wonder how men may feel if this is how things were. If the roles were reversed. What if all the passages in the bible about womens’ submission, male roles, etc were backwards? So I am just curious, what is your (men or woman’s) reaction to the above? Does imagining it make you at all uncomfortable? Do you think you would not be disappointed for that to be the case, but fully embrace whatever God’s will is for you the way women do? Would you feel, at all, inferior? Does the above sound just “silly” or “nonsensical”? I am interested in any thoughts!

I must say that was beautiful: your entire presentation and questions.

There is no Christian, Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic; there is no Jew, Orthodox or Reform; there is no Muslim, Sunni or Shiite, who won’t need to dance and twist about trying to put a satisfying spin to your valid presentation and penetrating questions.

Yes, God made male and female, Genesis 1:27, and the aspects of both are different: clearly.

As far as the meaning and consequences of the differences - well - take from the Scriptures what you will, about the equality/inequality of both, for the passages are sufficiently ambiguous, to please any number of views.

Fortunately, with Matthew 22:30, the question will become moot.

 

[GraceDK]

You also disagree with the Pope because he only uses altar servers who are men. Why are there no women? Because it is the man’s function in the Church.

The effect of changing the norms to allow girl servers will likely lead to further feminization of the Church; and we cannot have women priests. There have been many priests who served as altar boys so to say that being an altar boy does not motivate boys to a holy life is erroneous and unfounded.

Firstly, the Pope is in agreement with the whole Church, not just St. Peter’s Basilika in Rome. All over the Catholic landscape we see little girls doing a great job helping the priest. If this was a bad thing then it wouldn’t be happening on such a massive scale. Please, be more humble.
The Pope uses alterservers that are precisely MEN, not children. Whenever the Pope celebrates a mass he has available to him severel priests, so its really no argument that you give me.
I bet that if he was but a parish priest he most likely would use also girls in his services. At least where I am, even the conservative priests use also girls.

Secondly, I find the term feminization quite insulting. I heard this expression utilized now many times in Catholic media by Catholic men and I find this so arrogant. it really does seem that even Catholic men must constantly look where they are going because they always have the temptation to sin like Adam (pointing his finger at Eve and blaming her for his own downfall). How would you like it, if whenever something was critizised somewhere your gender was used in this way to describe all ills??
Feminine is a good thing… okay? try to look that fact up in your book. I would appreciate it if you dont devalue my godgiven sex by using it as a bad word.
And by the way… if the strength of the female psyche is now being respected more in Church life then why can you not fathom that the Holy Spirit might have a finger in that like He did with so many other developments in the Church?

 

[FNDRB58]

Firstly, the Pope is in agreement with the whole Church, not just St. Peter’s Basilika in Rome. All over the Catholic landscape we see little girls doing a great job helping the priest. If this was a bad thing then it wouldn’t be happening on such a massive scale. Please, be more humble.
The Pope uses alterservers that are precisely MEN, not children. Whenever the Pope celebrates a mass he has available to him severel priests, so its really no argument that you give me.
I bet that if he was but a parish priest he most likely would use also girls in his services. At least where I am, even the conservative priests use also girls.

Secondly, I find the term feminization quite insulting. I heard this expression utilized now many times in Catholic media by Catholic men and I find this so arrogant. it really does seem that even Catholic men must constantly look where they are going because they always have the temptation to sin like Adam (pointing his finger at Eve and blaming her for his own downfall). How would you like it, if whenever something was critizised somewhere your gender was used in this way to describe all ills??
Feminine is a good thing… okay? try to look that fact up in your book. I would appreciate it if you dont devalue my godgiven sex by using it as a bad word.
And by the way… if the strength of the female psyche is now being respected more in Church life then why can you not fathom that the Holy Spirit might have a finger in that like He did with so many other developments in the Church?

The competency of girl altar servers of course was not the point I was making but I think you knew that.

Where I read about “feminization” was an article written by a woman. It was a tract on this website. I can get the link for you if you want. The term is not demeaning if you put in the context in which it was given. But your sensitivities to this subject are apparent. Also, I never said femininity is a bad thing and I never criticized femininity to describe “all ills”. In fact, if you have read any of my comments you would see that I have yet to mention anything negative about women, as there are none to make. Your arguments make no sense. Accusing me of woman bashing just because I think altar servers should be boys…as is practiced in my own parish, is mighty bold indeed. Surely, you can come up with a better rebuttal than to go into attack mode with unfounded assertions.

VATICAN COMMUNICATION ON FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS
Congregation for Divine Worship

*2) The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. **At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. *Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It just occurred to me that women probably have no idea what effect they have on their men.

“They” say that behind every good man is a good woman. There’s a reason for that.

Women know whether any given babies is theirs, but men’s could not be determined back then before DNA testing and such. So men don’t want to spend their life energy raising a kid unless they’re pretty sure it is theirs. This is only a hypothetical situation; I’m aware that not all men are like that. But we are drawn to reproduce, not to be workers for other men to reproduce.

So the men want every assurance that the woman will remain faithful, whether by constraint or by her own “need” for the man. Men don’t want women to be “needy” because they that means we have to give attention and energy to them when we might not want to. Ironically, they want the women to “need” them at the same time – in that they want the women to think whatever they want they don’t have to go elsewhere to get it.

So if I think my wife has her eye on something that she admires, or adores, or is drawn to, whether person, place, or thing, I have to compete for her 100% attention by either destroying the thing she likes, trying to make her not like that thing (yeah right), or assimilating into myself whatever is the essence of the attractive element. For example, if she is attracted to a musician, is it because of his music, his self-confidence, his “bad boy” attitude, whatever. Once I know what it is she likes about him, the more I can imagine myself better than him, and even allow myself to become what I imagine, if I know how to be changeable. So basically I have to assimilate anything that my wife may find she wants or needs, so that I will be her all and she’ll be devoted to me so I know that the children are going to be mine.

So my question to any woman (or person for that matter) becomes, if you like him so much, what does he have that I don’t have? Chances are, the attraction is not strictly physical; if it is physical part of the appearance is how the attitdue comes across visuallly.

But the moral of the story is this. This is how a woman can change a man. Let the man know what you admire – either as an abstract, or maybe specifically what you admire about a particular man, woman, or other concept. The man’s instinct causes him to either try to control you, destroy the image she has of the other man, (which is a bit like herding cats), or to consume, or to become the other man. Basically, I become whatever I think my wife will adore as she would God. I also believe that if a woman treats a man with as much respect and awe as they would Jesus himself, that the man would be putty in their hands, and will be instinctively compelled to conform to your image of him. So what you ladies think about what men should be has more of an impact on whether a man changes, than any arguments or complaints or confrontations can ever do. It sounds like you’re gratifying the ego, but all you’re doing when you “honor” a man is to honor Christ Himself, for whatsoever you do …

In short, we try to dominate you, and/or become whatever it is that would please you most, so you don’t have any ability or reason to stray, respectively.

Now I have no idea whether it works that way for women. I suspect it doesn’t.

Alan

PS I read in a book about jealousy – there was a study that if women and men find out their counterpart has interest in another, they differ in what they fear the most. Men fear whether their women had physical relations with another man. Women fear whether their man “loves” the other woman more than the physical cheating.

 

[jmcrae]

It sounds really relaxing. No need to worry about providing for the family, or makign big decisions. Just learn to do a few simple tasks well and take it easy.

Except that when things go wrong (something happens to your wife, or she leaves you for a younger man), you have never been given the survival skills that you need, to be able to survive on your own - no one will hire you for any kind of responsible job because you are “only a man” so the only jobs you can get pay very little, and people even begrudge you that little, saying that really, you should work as a volunteer for free, since you are a man who can be taken care of by a woman - you really need to just turn on the charm, get some nice clothes, lose some of that weight, and get yourself a good woman who will take care of you, instead of taking a good job that really should go to a woman, who needs the money for her family.

 

[GraceDK]

FNDRB58;
The competency of girl altar servers of course was not the point I was making but I think you knew that.
Where I read about “feminization” was an article written by a woman. It was a tract on this website. I can get the link for you if you want. The term is not demeaning if you put in the context in which it was given.

**GraceDK : Of course it was demeaning. you didnt try to describe a positive trend in the church but a negative one and used the word “feminization” to do so.
I have heard this insulting expression severel times on Catholic radio severel times over the last 5 years… I have heard it by men, but that a woman might buy into using it doens’t surprise me. It doesn’t make it right though. **

But your sensitivities to this subject are apparent. Also, I never said femininity is a bad thing and I never criticized femininity to describe “all ills”. In fact, if you have read any of my comments you would see that I have yet to mention anything negative about women, as there are none to make. Your arguments make no sense. Accusing me of woman bashing just because I think altar servers should be boys…

No, I take your word “feminization” and from this word of yours I see you don’t appreciate whats feminine. You have said now that this is not your oppinion, and I am happy. Please don’t use this word any more just like you wouldnt use such expressions about other groups in the population.

as is practiced in my own parish, is mighty bold indeed. Surely, you can come up with a better rebuttal than to go into attack mode with unfounded assertions.
VATICAN COMMUNICATION ON FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS
Congregation for Divine Worship
*2) The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. **At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. **Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.

What is this?.. its saying something without saying something.
Local reasons? All over Europe we use girls as alter servers… because we find it appropriate I guess. It will be appropriate to use boys, yes, but it doesn’t say anything about the inapropriateness of using girls as alter servants. It tells me to support alter boys… I do, and I support alter girls too. i think its great when I see children helping in the Church per se. like Jesus said: Do not hinder them!
Maybe these girls will feel appreciated by the Church and later bring up strong Catholic families or enter religious life because they were welcomed at the alter… Don’t you think?*

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[surfinpure]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

This is an awfully long copy-and-paste job that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. (And it’s wrong.)

 

[Listener]

Thank you for the interesting role reversal document. It really makes you think.

If it is God who decided that women can’t be priests, then I think I know why. Have you ever noticed who come to daily Mass? Mostly women. Have you ever noticed who acts as Eucharistic Ministers? Mostly women. I could go on and on with examples.

I think that if God had founded a church with female priests, there would be no men in the church at all.

Now that I’m old enough to collect Social Security, I realize that I can do almost anything I feel like doing (unless it’s illegal, immoral, or fattening).

I don’t spend one minute thinking I’m inferior to men. If some men think I’m inferior because I’m a woman, I consider that their problem, not mine.

 

[surfinpure]

Thank you for the interesting role reversal document. It really makes you think.

If it is God who decided that women can’t be priests, then I think I know why. Have you ever noticed who come to daily Mass? Mostly women. Have you ever noticed who acts as Eucharistic Ministers? Mostly women. I could go on and on with examples.

I think that if God had founded a church with female priests, there would be no men in the church at all.

Now that I’m old enough to collect Social Security, I realize that I can do almost anything I feel like doing (unless it’s illegal, immoral, or fattening).

I don’t spend one minute thinking I’m inferior to men. If some men think I’m inferior because I’m a woman, I consider that their problem, not mine.

Great post, Listener!

 

[JackQ]

I sometimes wonder why so many don’t understand why some women may become a bit demoralized by the passages in the bible that refer to us. Put yourself in this world, in the world that women live in. Imagine that this is how things were, not that you WERE a woman, but a man, in this situation.

---

You are married to a wonderful woman (you took her last name). You have a couple of great kids. After your wife had them, she went back to work, for she is the breadwinner. Your primary role is to be the father. So when she goes off to work, you stay home with the children.

The whole family goes to church together on Sundays. You listen to the female priest give the sermon, because in this world the bible is clear that the church is domain of the woman, and the church is “her” husband. After all the bible states “let your men be kept silent in churches : for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their wives at home: for it is a shame for men to speak in the church.” It is not god’s will that men be ordained, because after all, Jesus picked only women apostles.

You are not bitter about this, though, because you know that men and women have different roles. Women are called to the church and to be the head of the family (“the head of ever woman is Christ, and the head of the man is the woman” and “for the woman is not of the man, but the man for the woman. Neither was created for the man, but the man for the woman” as is seen in the bible) and men are called to the family and to be fathers. You are equal, but just have different roles.

You and your wife have a pretty equal partnership, but as the bible commands you to do, you allow her to make the big decisions and head the family. "Let the men learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a man to teach, nor to usurp authority over the woman, but to be in silence. For Eve was first formed, then Adam.” Because of the many passages like this, you accept that sometimes you must submit to her.

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I mean, i just wonder how men may feel if this is how things were. If the roles were reversed. What if all the passages in the bible about womens’ submission, male roles, etc were backwards? So I am just curious, what is your (men or woman’s) reaction to the above? Does imagining it make you at all uncomfortable? Do you think you would not be disappointed for that to be the case, but fully embrace whatever God’s will is for you the way women do? Would you feel, at all, inferior? Does the above sound just “silly” or “nonsensical”? I am interested in any thoughts!

Your role reversal isn’t complete. For it to be so, the man would have to be the one to give birth. Women would be incapable of it. Jesus would have been a woman, and the Blessed Virgin would have been a man.

There is no higher human office than that of mother. This is only hard to see in our society because of warped social prejudices. But one of the goals of Catholicism is to see things as God does, rather than the way humans do, just as Jesus’ messiahship was revealed in his humiliation, pain, and death.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Maybe this is a matter of pride, but I have some sins that my old-fashioned training tell me are simply wrong to share with a woman. Excuse me, but there are some things that guys simply should never share with women IMO. Call me stuck up, but if you doubt me maybe we can come up with some examples.

I don’t know how women feel about confessing to a man, but I know that my wife loves to go to confession so apparently it isn’t so scary for her. Do other women have a problem confessing to a male priest, and how would it be different if it were a woman? We have woman doctors.

IMO, there are no wrong answers. I intend to uphold the right of the Church as the moral authority, so I’m not going against the church. That doesn’t mean I can’t play “Thomas Aquinas” and try to examine both sides of the issue – besides when I do that, I know the enemy’s mind better so I know how to defeat or at least defuse it.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Your role reversal isn’t complete. For it to be so, the man would have to be the one to give birth. Women would be incapable of it. Jesus would have been a woman, and the Blessed Virgin would have been a man.

There is no higher human office than that of mother. This is only hard to see in our society because of warped social prejudices. But one of the goals of Catholicism is to see things as God does, rather than the way humans do, just as Jesus’ messiahship was revealed in his humiliation, pain, and death.

I think any couple who has a perfect marriage, between to imperfect people who unite with each other and God to the point of contemplative unity all the way around, we would find out that the whole issue of women and men roles are for us all, not against us. My marriage is more perfect than I could have imagined it, when we met in 1985 and now that we’ve had six awesome children together. We can choose to differ from what appears to be oppressive attitude from God toward women (please, like He loves men more than women – then why is the church His “bride”), but if we can learn to sit back and actually let some of God’s way seep into our thoughts and actions a little bit, we might find we like what we taste.

Alan

 

[GraceDK]

Your role reversal isn’t complete. For it to be so, the man would have to be the one to give birth. Women would be incapable of it. Jesus would have been a woman, and the Blessed Virgin would have been a man.

There is no higher human office than that of mother. This is only hard to see in our society because of warped social prejudices. But one of the goals of Catholicism is to see things as God does, rather than the way humans do, just as Jesus’ messiahship was revealed in his humiliation, pain, and death.

Why do you think so?
Indeed father is just as high an office. Think about our heavenly Father. No one can take the place of our father in heaven or on earth. All fatherhood is named after the Heavenly Father. And think about the fatherhood of priests, who the church says have the highest vocation, the supernatural one of celibacy coupled with the power to consecrate the Eucharist. My father was as necessary to me as my mother. Both made me together, both brought me up. Without any one of them I would have been nonexistent or a cripple of a human being.

It seems you avoid the actual problematic of the opening post. Seen before on this thread. Nice try, but not convincing at all.

 

[GraceDK]

Maybe this is a matter of pride, but I have some sins that my old-fashioned training tell me are simply wrong to share with a woman. Excuse me, but there are some things that guys simply should never share with women IMO. Call me stuck up, but if you doubt me maybe we can come up with some examples.

I don’t know how women feel about confessing to a man, but I know that my wife loves to go to confession so apparently it isn’t so scary for her. Do other women have a problem confessing to a male priest, and how would it be different if it were a woman? We have woman doctors.

IMO, there are no wrong answers. I intend to uphold the right of the Church as the moral authority, so I’m not going against the church. That doesn’t mean I can’t play “Thomas Aquinas” and try to examine both sides of the issue – besides when I do that, I know the enemy’s mind better so I know how to defeat or at least defuse it.

Alan

Alan.

Women also have issues they don’t talk to men about but only to girl friends.
I think that in the confession what matters is that Jesus is there. On a human level, yes I would prefer to tell my embarrasing sins to another woman.
Confession is great because of the feeling you have during and after absolution

 

[jmcrae]

Maybe this is a matter of pride, but I have some sins that my old-fashioned training tell me are simply wrong to share with a woman. Excuse me, but there are some things that guys simply should never share with women IMO. Call me stuck up, but if you doubt me maybe we can come up with some examples.

I’m sure there are many things that a man would not like to tell a woman - for example, sexual sins or thoughts.

I don’t know how women feel about confessing to a man, but I know that my wife loves to go to confession so apparently it isn’t so scary for her. Do other women have a problem confessing to a male priest, and how would it be different if it were a woman? We have woman doctors.

There are, in fact, things that men don’t need to know about women - at least, not in detail. Fortunately, we are not required to confess our sins in great detail, but just name them and say how often. It is also comforting that the priest is required to forget everything that he hears in the Confessional - otherwise, I am sure he would have nightmares.