what if you were in our (womens') shoes?

[LemonAndLime]

I honestly don’t understand this objection. All right, how’s this? If I were a Catholic woman I would feel privileged to be one.

Taking your post at face value, that should satisfy you.

Would you be able to understand how some women feel like they are prejudiced against by the Church?

I don’t at all think that women are prejudiced against by the Church, but I believe they are by some male (and female!) members of it in the past, and even today in the present. I can completely understand why some ultra-feminist Catholic women feel that the Church are unfair in not allowing women priests. I myself am offended that some members think girls should not even be allowed to become alter servers, especially as Christ’s mother herself served her son at the foot of the cross. But I have to say, some Bible passages do seem to talk of women in a derrogatory fashion, but I’ll leave that to those who are better versed in Bible study than I am.

But I can understand the non-Catholic feminist accusations against the Church also, as they used to be my own before I educated myself properly about Church teaching. The ban on abortion and contraception is often perceived as a ban on women and an attempt to control the one thing man cannot own himself - the ability to produce and give birth to children. I don’t see it that way, but I used to.

Yes men and women are different. However, on a different thread, some CAF members have suggested that women who work are selfish, women should stay at home and have children. When I stated I would not choose that life and would instead prefer to continue my career as a nurse, I was criticised and told that “not many Catholic men would want you with that attitude.” That I think is what the OP of this thread is getting at. How would you feel if you were pressured to have a certain vocation, and were considered a “good target” for accusations of being selfish if you did not do what you were apparently “born to do” i.e. Women are born to have children, therefore if you choose to have a career you are being a bad woman. See what I mean? I suppose a good comparison is a man who wanted to stay at home and look after his children being accused of being unmanly and not fulfilling the role God chose for him.

 

[wayward]

Not jealous, but certainly uncomfortable with certain passages.

As Angel Bradford points out, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) 42 is an excellent example of why a woman studying scripture might find herself feeling uncomfortable with what she reads there.

Or would you be comfortable reading something that says that a woman who commits sin is better than you when you are living a life of virtue?

wayward

 

[bhall0689]

Laides, I hate to tell you this, but I know you are only showing me love with your comments.

If you want to feel the love that men have for you, try communicating in a language they understnad – simplicity.

My wife gave me a lesson in this, this morning. I had to set a timer and shut my mouth for 15 minutes, during which she was allowed to talk, and so she did for the last 2 minutes.

Here’s what she said:
I woke up and nobody was here and i didn’t know where YOU were and thought maybe you were going manic AGAIN and nobody else was up in the house and I didn’t see your note until 40 minutes after you left and i have a terrible headahce and I just wanted to get up and have a GOOD day for a change and all I wanted was 15 minutes of quiet so I could say my prayers but then I didn’t get to do my prayer because … and now my headache is so bad it feels like I have FOUR EYES and … blah blah blah " well, you get the picture.

Now, ladies: consider being up front and honest with your man about your feelings, and maybe he’ll understand you. I strained my brain, but finally figured out what she was saying to me, in male lingo.

“I woke up and didn’t see you, so i wondered where you were. i didn’t see your note right away, and was frightened. I felt lonely because nobody else was up and you were gone. i felt separated, especially since I don’t know how you are feeling or whether you’re ok, because i don’t even know when to expect you home. I found your note, so thank goodness everything is OK. Also, I just am feeling a bit frustrated because when I am stressed and try to do the Right Thing by saying my prayers, I end up something happens and I can’t even spend a few minutes with God.”

Now, see if you can’t try talking to a man without hiding or faking your feelings, or expecting him to read your mind. I can be your first victim, if you wish to experiment in the area of bridging the male-female communication gap. This could be the “shot heard around the world.”

Alan

This is the most offensive post I’ve ever seen on CAF, and that is a lofty thing to aspire to. How does this post even relate to the thread at all? It seems like an attempt at derailment.

The suggestion that ALL women are bad at communicating (I’ve read many threads on CAF stating that verbal skills are an area of female superiority) is extremely offensive.

I can talk to you without “hiding or faking my feelings,” or “expecting you to read my mind”: I think that your posts are close-minded and offensive. You do not know what it’s like to be discriminated because of your gender. It’s called the “male privilege.”

I suggest you take a look at the following link if you need help unraveling this phenomena.

“The first big privilege which whites, males, people in upper economic classes, the able bodied, the straight (I think one or two of those will cover most of us) can work to alleviate is the privilege to be oblivious to privilege.”

Male Checklist

 

[qOcOp]

I sometimes wonder why so many don’t understand why some women may become a bit demoralized by the passages in the bible that refer to us. Put yourself in this world, in the world that women live in. Imagine that this is how things were, not that you WERE a woman, but a man, in this situation.

---

You are married to a wonderful woman (you took her last name). You have a couple of great kids. After your wife had them, she went back to work, for she is the breadwinner. Your primary role is to be the father. So when she goes off to work, you stay home with the children.

The whole family goes to church together on Sundays. You listen to the female priest give the sermon, because in this world the bible is clear that the church is domain of the woman, and the church is “her” husband. After all the bible states “let your men be kept silent in churches : for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their wives at home: for it is a shame for men to speak in the church.” It is not god’s will that men be ordained, because after all, Jesus picked only women apostles.

You are not bitter about this, though, because you know that men and women have different roles. Women are called to the church and to be the head of the family (“the head of ever woman is Christ, and the head of the man is the woman” and “for the woman is not of the man, but the man for the woman. Neither was created for the man, but the man for the woman” as is seen in the bible) and men are called to the family and to be fathers. You are equal, but just have different roles.

You and your wife have a pretty equal partnership, but as the bible commands you to do, you allow her to make the big decisions and head the family. "Let the men learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a man to teach, nor to usurp authority over the woman, but to be in silence. For Eve was first formed, then Adam.” Because of the many passages like this, you accept that sometimes you must submit to her.

---

I mean, i just wonder how men may feel if this is how things were. If the roles were reversed. What if all the passages in the bible about womens’ submission, male roles, etc were backwards? So I am just curious, what is your (men or woman’s) reaction to the above? Does imagining it make you at all uncomfortable? Do you think you would not be disappointed for that to be the case, but fully embrace whatever God’s will is for you the way women do? Would you feel, at all, inferior? Does the above sound just “silly” or “nonsensical”? I am interested in any thoughts!

Hello,

In regards to your hypothetical situation I can tell you right now that I would follow without the least bit of issue if the shoe was on the other foot. The reason is because the position one holds does not rob the other of their dignity. Our Blessed Mother is honored and venerated more than any man, woman, or angel in Christianity and she is second only to God, but was this dignity taken away even one iota when she was the wife of Joseph and subject to him? Was her humility a sign of weakness or a sign of strength? Likewise was God inferior to Mary when He was subject to her in the person of Jesus Christ while on earth?

The only thing that would cause someone to have a problem with the way things are in the Church or in the Scriptures is nothing but good old fashioned pride. Plus anyone that actually thinks the Bible or the Church is sexiest hasn’t really taken into account that the Church is called the bride (female) of Christ and that all men are called to love their wives just as the love the Church (this means they would die for them and treat them with the utmost respect and seriously what woman in her right mind would care about being under a man that does that?), Our Lady is the most perfect of all created beings possessing ALL GRACE (this alone shoots down the idea that the Bible or Church portrays women as inferior since no man other than Christ possess this.) Not to mention the countless holy women mentioned in the Bible like, Ruth, Judith, Our Blessed Mother, Mary Magdalene, the sisters of Lazarus, and etc. And who can forget the countless Women saints that we have and ask to intercede for us! It just boggles my mind that so many women are so up in arms about how the way things are as if it in some way robs them of their dignity as human beings.

 

[FNDRB58]

I am hurt…this is what I have been saying for the last 100 posts. kkpeople:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If we can’t agree on what role women and men are best suited for – other than the obvious, of course, then how can we figure out if it’s good or bad to even play a role at all, and if so witch ones? :newidea:

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I am hurt…this is what I have been saying for the last 100 posts. kkpeople:

I wish I knew how I hurt you, so that I cannot do it again. I swear it is neither my intent to intrude or try to outguess you head space. Please, for the love of God, help me understand what I come across like, and how I can share my feelings better with maybe a better choice of words? :imsorry:

Alan

 

[FNDRB58]

Okay, so I think I found out why we don’t agree is because of a misunderstanding of the use “feminization”.
What you should say instead of this word is " ideological feministic influences".

Using the word feminization simply comes across as if its a downgrading of what it means to be feminine as well as of the qualities which are more prominent in women, though not at all limited to women. In this sense have I also heard it utilized on Catholic radio-stations by some men… not as a criticism of marxistic ideological feminism (which we all don’t like) but as a criticism eg against female traits, thoughts and particular female strengths. This is what I find both uncharitable and unwise.

All feminization means is to be more feminine. Having female priests is in a sense making the Church more feminine…not that it is masculine now (except for priests). That’s all I was saying. How this got me accused of blaming the ills of the world on women and not seeing any good traits in women is beyond me. What a waste of time explaining this.

I think I’m done with this here thread.

 

[FNDRB58]

I wish I knew how I hurt you, so that I cannot do it again. I swear it is neither my intent to intrude or try to outguess you head space. Please, for the love of God, help me understand what I come across like, and how I can share my feelings better with maybe a better choice of words? :imsorry:

Alan

LOL. No Alan, no one hurt me. I was being facetious. I have been talking about the difference between the genders this whole time.

 

[Stephen168]

I suggest you take a look at the following link if you need help unraveling this phenomena.

“The first big privilege which whites, males, people in upper economic classes, the able bodied, the straight (I think one or two of those will cover most of us) can work to alleviate is the privilege to be oblivious to privilege.”

Male Checklist

A list of male privileges, men are oblivious to; created by a man.

 

[JackQ]

Would you be able to understand how some women feel like they are prejudiced against by the Church?

I don’t at all think that women are prejudiced against by the Church, but I believe they are by some male (and female!) members of it in the past, and even today in the present. I can completely understand why some ultra-feminist Catholic women feel that the Church are unfair in not allowing women priests. I myself am offended that some members think girls should not even be allowed to become alter servers, especially as Christ’s mother herself served her son at the foot of the cross. But I have to say, some Bible passages do seem to talk of women in a derrogatory fashion, but I’ll leave that to those who are better versed in Bible study than I am.

But I can understand the non-Catholic feminist accusations against the Church also, as they used to be my own before I educated myself properly about Church teaching. The ban on abortion and contraception is often perceived as a ban on women and an attempt to control the one thing man cannot own himself - the ability to produce and give birth to children. I don’t see it that way, but I used to.

Yes men and women are different. However, on a different thread, some CAF members have suggested that women who work are selfish, women should stay at home and have children. When I stated I would not choose that life and would instead prefer to continue my career as a nurse, I was criticised and told that “not many Catholic men would want you with that attitude.” That I think is what the OP of this thread is getting at. How would you feel if you were pressured to have a certain vocation, and were considered a “good target” for accusations of being selfish if you did not do what you were apparently “born to do” i.e. Women are born to have children, therefore if you choose to have a career you are being a bad woman. See what I mean? I suppose a good comparison is a man who wanted to stay at home and look after his children being accused of being unmanly and not fulfilling the role God chose for him.

That’s not how I understood the OP. But to answer your inquiry, I think people are better off minding their own business, by and large. Nobody should get or perform an abortion, however, because that’s killing another person. Catholics shouldn’t use artificial birth control. But there’s no Catholic teaching against being a nurse. If you think you should be a nurse, then you should be a nurse.

 

[bhall0689]

A list of male privileges, men are oblivious to; created by a man.

Imagine that! A man sympathizing with the female condition and struggles! Wasn’t that kind of the whole point of this thread - for men to step into women’s hypothetical stilettos for a moment and ponder some struggles that many good, Christian women battle?

The article I posted is a wonderful example of a man trying to do just that, and you know what? He succeeds.

:newidea:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

:newidea:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

LOL. No Alan, no one hurt me. I was being facetious. I have been talking about the difference between the genders this whole time.

LOL!!! I guess some women ARE better liars than me.

I’m not worthy. :bowdown:

Alan

 

[jmcrae]

You remind me of a quick exchange between my wife and me after about 16 years of marriage. Company was coming and she said, “how come when the house is a mess it is considered the woman’s fault?” I asked, “How come when there is no house to live in it is considered the man’s fault?”
This happened a few days after watching a news piece on TV about a family living in an abandoned car in the California desert. The news piece explained it was because HE could not find work.

Because it is still the case today that a married woman’s income, no matter how high it may be, cannot be considered collateral on a mortgage - because she might get pregnant and lose or quit the job.

If we ever get to the point where a woman’s income is considered stable enough to be used as collateral against a mortgage, then you’ll see news stories where people are homeless because neither of the adults in the family can find work.

As for, what role are women suited for, they are suited for the roles that fit their God-given talents. Every woman is different, and is suited for a different role. There is no such thing as “women should” do this or that, as if all women were created from the same cookie cutter. Women are just as diverse as men are. If a girl spends her whole life building up her muscles and practicing her manual dexterity, she can be just as athletic as a man. If a man spends time practicing the skills of a home-maker, he can be just as good a cook and house-keeper as any woman. These things are taught and learned; nobody is born with them.

 

[jmcrae]

If we can’t agree on what role women and men are best suited for – other than the obvious, of course, then how can we figure out if it’s good or bad to even play a role at all, and if so witch ones? :newidea:

Alan

No one should play any role based on things they can’t help, such as gender or skin colour. They should be themselves and use their own God-given talents, rather than play-act their way through life, pretending to be whatever they happen to look like.

 

[bhall0689]

:nunchuk:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

:nunchuk:

:banghead:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Maybe I still haven’t gotten over my first real encounter with the female mind. :bigyikes:

There was a girl that lived next door to my who had a horse and we would spend time doing horse stuff and all, when I was just about to be in eighth grade – it was the ssummer before that. Anyway we were usiing this old fashioned washing machine that was just a big tub and rollers at the top for wringers. There was a knob to adjust the pressure, and a emergency release lever. it looked a bit like this:
http://www.grannymar.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/washing-machine.jpg

We were washing some clothes at my grandmother’s and I was waiting a bit away and then all of a sudden she started feeding her hair into the wringer!! Of course, I panicked, ran over and hit the emergency release, and managed to get it stopped before it actually took in all her hair. Good thing her hair was prety long.

But my question is, what is that? Why would a woman put herself in danger around me? Is it some sort of death wish where if I fail to rescue her she can play the martyr and feel like I had let her down? Was she testing me? I didn’t have a clue. I said, “WHAT ARE YOU DOING?” while I hit the thing, and she just laughed. I would give a paycheck to find out what in the world was even on her mind when she pulled that stupid stunt. I really wasn’t watching, but for some reason looked over right as she started feeding the hair. What if I hadn’t “just happened” to look at that exact time – and failed to keep her from getting her hair SERIOUSLY pulled.

This isn’t about imagination, or the way we look at things, or being oppressed. It’s nothing about controller her mind or body. It’s about putting herself in harm’s way for absolutely no reason at all, other than the thrill of taking a risk at getting hurt. Do you suppose that sort of mentality is a bit like those people who play Russian Roulette?

Come on. Is there any explanation I’d like to hear the sort of logic it takes to explain this one away. Thank you everyone for your help, but honestly I’m getting a bit of a headache – and I’m not so sure that’s a bad thing. :nope:

Alan

 

[GraceDK]

Male Checklist

Fantastic. I’ll save this on my notebook.

It’s so true, men are oblivious to their own privileges… Its just particularly sad when non-Christian men are more aware and willing to change things than Catholic men are… One has to ask one self why that is.
I particularly like
nr. 43: Complete strangers generelly do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile”.

Indeed