What if your wrong?

[fhansen]

Was the Catholic Church correct on the moral issue of the inquisition and the cathars.

The CC was right on matters of faith and morals then as well as now, which is all we’re assured of. Her people have not always acted according to them although her image would be better if they had, just like my own image would be better had I always acted perfectly.

 

[Nino]

well lets see…If I am right,re: that there is life after death…then I will only know that I am right…if I am wrong I will never know it…those who believe this earth is all and that no sense of consciousness exists after death will only know they are wrong…soooo I guess I will stay on this side of the line…as was scratched in the dirt at the Alamo…take your stand and live or die accordingly…all the best…Nino

 

[mathematician]

Which makes it an unusual and remarkable story indeed. Yet, you seem to think that this suggests a rule rather than an exception.

The other thing that you seem to be missing is that in many ways the calculations continue to be correct. We don’t use relativity to build bridges.

We are never going to have a perfect picture of the universe, but your belief that every theory is bound to fall away is simply not correct.

You wouldn’t want to take a bet on that, would you?

 

[mathematician]

Are human beings the only species with an intellect which is truly omnipotent and potentially omniscient, or are the chances of us ever having a complete understanding of the universe about as likely as our nearest biological relative typing out the complete works of Shakespeare on a typewriter?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t know if you misunderstood me or I’m misunderstanding you. I’ve had the above-mentioned experiences and have been given the gift of faith and I’m as sure as a human can be that the God of Catholicism is true and yet I acknowledge that, because I’m not God, I have to retain the humility that I can error and the charity to allow others to as well, even if they don’t pay me the same kindness.

What experiences ?​

Of course one has to have humility - but it is not humble to allow for the possibility there is no God. If one has faith, one keep nothing back, nothing at all. I can’t understand how one can have faith otherwise; I know I don’t have faith, or not in any sense worth speaking of. As there is a God, there can be no holding anything in reserve “just in case”. That’s unbelief, not humility. In fact, humility as it ought to be is impossible without faith. Freedom from error is not an issue - faith in God no matter what is very definitely the issue; it’s fully compatible with being wrong in all sorts of ways. But to sacrifice faith to humility makes no sense.

I don’t see how having faith - the full, real, unreserved kind - harms others. It’s not the same as seeking to change them. We probably are talking about faith in different senses.

 

[Abbadon]

Are human beings the only species with an intellect which is truly omnipotent and potentially omniscient, or are the chances of us ever having a complete understanding of the universe about as likely as our nearest biological relative typing out the complete works of Shakespeare on a typewriter?

If you mean monkeys typing shakespear based on an evolutionary pattern rather than pure randomness then yes…

But i think it is more likely that we will become intergrated with machines and our consious identities will later be able to do so. What is it by 2020 there will be a computer that can equal the human brain in calculations and it will sellf or $1000 and in 2030 there will be one that will sell for $1 (referenceing The universe - ep the search for et, on the History Chanel))

So i think yes given the time we will understand everything, and be all powerful… given enough time…

 

[mathematician]

If you mean monkeys typing shakespear based on an evolutionary pattern rather than pure randomness then yes…

But i think it is more likely that we will become intergrated with machines and our consious identities will later be able to do so. What is it by 2020 there will be a computer that can equal the human brain in calculations and it will sellf or $1000 and in 2030 there will be one that will sell for $1 (referenceing The universe - ep the search for et, on the History Chanel))

So i think yes given the time we will understand everything, and be all powerful… given enough time…

It sounds to me as if you want machines to be all powerful, and if that happened it would seriously worry me. But I am not so sure it will happen. I remember very well somebody called Dr Chris Evans writing a book confidently predicting that by now the world would be run by what he called Ultra Intellligent Machines. It is possible for people to become so dazzled by microprocessing that they let their imagination run away with them.

 

[fhansen]

So i think yes given the time we will understand everything, and be all powerful… given enough time…

It sounds like you think that somehow science will solve all of our problems, an idea I thought most people had given up on by now. But even if we did understand everything and became all powerful, what do you envision life would be like? And what about the “problem” of death? Do you suppose science will solve that one, too, and if so would we even want it to if it meant living forever on this planet?

 

[Abbadon]

It sounds like you think that somehow science will solve all of our problems, an idea I thought most people had given up on by now. But even if we did understand everything and became all powerful, what do you envision life would be like? And what about the “problem” of death? Do you suppose science will solve that one, too, and if so would we even want it to if it meant living forever on this planet?

Honestly its not that hard… if you think about it all we need is to transplant our body into a machine… link our brain to optical outlets, nervous system to robotic controls i’m not sure how the brain works exactly and what is needed to synthasise everything to keep it alive. But i think we can figure it out…

The scientific process is the best way we can find solutions to our earthly problems… look how much it has done for us in the last 100 years…

 

[Douglas_Kraeger]

I would like to ask a question of atheists; Do you reject the idea that there are some actions that are absolutely, objectively, morally evil and wrong? Such as someone killing thousands of people so they can get front row box seats on the fifty yard line for the next seven superbowls? or a woman, wanting her best friends husband, kills their children, frames the woman, and then picks up the bereaved man? Unlikely or not, do you reject them as being objectively, absolutely evil and morally wrong and make the claim that there are no such absolutely, objective morally evil actions that can be envisioned? If there is an absolute objective moral order, where could it come from except an ALL-POWERFUL Creator who also must have revealed it to us?

 

[crowonsnow]

I would like to ask a question of atheists… If there is an absolute objective moral order, where could it come from except an ALL-POWERFUL Creator who also must have revealed it to us?

Hello Douglas Kraeger. Welcome to the discussion.

The most obvious answer is to ask where an alleged creator gets absolute power from, and also absolute objective moral order. That’s my first thought. Observationally, these things simply do not exist, or else there would be no exceptions requiring explanation, rationalization, apology, etc.

 

[Sideline]

I would like to ask a question of atheists; Do you reject the idea that there are some actions that are absolutely, objectively, morally evil and wrong?

Yes, I do.

Atheism isn’t a religion, though. Other people will have different opinions.

Atrocities definitely do occur. They are definitely disgusting, and the people deserve to be reviled. But “wrong” is the word we give to the behaviour we can not except. That we are biologically, and socially programmed to abhor.

If there is an absolute objective moral order, where could it come from except an ALL-POWERFUL Creator who also must have revealed it to us?

How does a creator being all-powerful make the rules he gives us absolute and objective? Being all-powerful isn’t the same as being objective.

If a god mearly dictated it, then it isn’t absolutely objective.

If there is an objective good, then the existence of a god is irrelevant to it being so.

 

[Abbadon]

It sounds like you think that somehow science will solve all of our problems, an idea I thought most people had given up on by now. But even if we did understand everything and became all powerful, what do you envision life would be like? And what about the “problem” of death? Do you suppose science will solve that one, too, and if so would we even want it to if it meant living forever on this planet?

It’s not science that will help us, it’s knowledge, understanding and advancement… And the scientific process has shown to be a good way, look at what our persuit for knowldge and understanding has done for us in the last 100 years…

It’s alot better than what the pathways of releigons has offered us, superstition, false hopes false beliefs… I mean really what has all the relegions of the past done beside supress knowledge and understanding hindering advances, hold on to power create intolerence… Just really stopped human progress all for some overaly dogmatic reasons…

I dont think death is a problem, i would like to live a thousand years perhaps but i like to eventually reach oblivion and cease to exist…

 

[Abbadon]

I would like to ask a question of atheists; Do you reject the idea that there are some actions that are absolutely, objectively, morally evil and wrong? Such as someone killing thousands of people so they can get front row box seats on the fifty yard line for the next seven superbowls? or a woman, wanting her best friends husband, kills their children, frames the woman, and then picks up the bereaved man? Unlikely or not, do you reject them as being objectively, absolutely evil and morally wrong and make the claim that there are no such absolutely, objective morally evil actions that can be envisioned? If there is an absolute objective moral order, where could it come from except an ALL-POWERFUL Creator who also must have revealed it to us?

Well these things are illogical, and detremental to a societies progress, so a society to advance and become stronger it can’t have people doing such acts.

But are such acts “evil”, I like the woman killing the children one but its to extreme you can do it without killing the children, I don’t like killing children, it would be easier to make the wife “disapear” lots of people go missing in countries everywhere and are never found. Then you can make it that the wife left and take the place of the wife. It would be best if you were already present in thier lives so as your genetic presence would already be present in the home. but i;m sick twisted and in no way represent a societies norm…

If I kill people who negatively effect the lives of others, if i kill such people not out of a sense of justice but purely for my own pleasure. Am i evil or a hero?

The catholic “pro-lifer” who shot dead that doctor at an abortion.
The crusades… The nazi solders who took on the orders to kill

Are these people evil? Life and human morals are far to gray to give it black and white stances…

My freind said it well in a reference to another negative effect on society.

I believe in the individguals right to do things for thier personal gain and pleasure. And i also belive in societies right to stop these people doing it for its gain and benefit.

 

[fhansen]

It’s alot better than what the pathways of releigons has offered us, superstition, false hopes false beliefs… I mean really what has all the relegions of the past done beside supress knowledge and understanding hindering advances, hold on to power create intolerence… Just really stopped human progress all for some overaly dogmatic reasons…

Where do you get your history? Even amateur historians know that in the west the church was the only light and the bastion of learning even thru the dark ages when education was pretty much wiped out. The monasteries maintained philosophy and the sciences. Discoveries in the last millennium which paved the way for the acceleration in knowledge we’re experiencing now were almost all by western believers. Galileo was a believer. Don’t presume to think for him about his faith. I guess the church used its universities and hospitals and orphanages and schools and countless acts of charity to suppress people. So her people did bad things too? Haven’t we all? But wait a minute. You don’t even believe in evil so on what basis can you judge the church anyway?

 

[mathematician]

Honestly its not that hard… if you think about it all we need is to transplant our body into a machine… link our brain to optical outlets, nervous system to robotic controls i’m not sure how the brain works exactly and what is needed to synthasise everything to keep it alive. But i think we can figure it out…

The scientific process is the best way we can find solutions to our earthly problems… look how much it has done for us in the last 100 years…

Only one small problem there - well, quite a few actually - but for a start our brain does not come thoughtfully supplied with USB ports (or any other i/o devices).

 

[Abbadon]

Only one small problem there - well, quite a few actually - but for a start our brain does not come thoughtfully supplied with USB ports (or any other i/o devices).

but it could… well why would you use usb so slow…

 

[Douglas_Kraeger]

Your conclusion that science has so much more to offer than religion is based on the assumption that there is no life after death, correct? If you are wrong about that, then, in the end, all the people who honestly sought the whole Truth and were truly sorry enough when they died for their sins of commission and omission, and truly threw themselves on God’s mercy, will present to you their eternal reward in heaven with all it’s infinite reward of the beatific vision, to go along with greatest sorrow for each and every sin they ever committed, and say with certitude, religion offered and produced much greater than science and they are glad for the grace to have made the right decision. Correct? And then you would agree also, correct?
Do you really believe there is nothing morally evil, intrinsically a violation of people’s rights and of an objective moral order, for someone to give 30 children ice cream cones, (laced with poison) just to watch them die? Please, also answer out loud, where ever you are, in a complete sentence, restating as much as possible of my question, and then ask yourself if it really sounds right and defensible and whether you would want all little children and the rest of the world to follow that philosophy to it’s logical end. Would you want that? Do you see how I see it, that; If there is no objectively morally good , better, best in anything, like sacrificing your wants in order to help someone to learn to read or be able to dress or to feed themselves; nothing objectively better in the hope of peace in families, or in the world, or in our souls (our consciencses, our hearts), if there is no purpose because we can not give purpose, (really give it) to our lives if there is no purpose to all of creation, how sad and empty life must be, almost to the point of despair because there is nothing to hope for in the end, other than the possibility that we are wrong and realize it and will to change before it is to late? Does anything give you real joy, a gladness of heart, a feeling that at least in this small area, it is as it should be? What is it? If there is one moral should, how can that be without a true God?
In reply: God is by definition the creator of all space and time and He must be truly infinite in each of His attributes and yet perfectly simple, (there can not be part of God anywhere) and the perfections of all the virtues we can know because He has revealed them in our hearts,like caring hardwork, honesty, loyalty and the list is long. Therefore the objective moral order comes from God’s goodness and infinite knowledge and His desire to help us be like Him in Love; willing to do all we can to help others to be good, to be holy. Again, do reject the idea that it is right and good to try and help people when we can and there is a moral law that tells us in our hearts that we should try?

 

[Abbadon]

Where do you get your history?

I was probably generalizing to much from my general base of knowledge. Witch burnings, the inquisition the irradiation and destruction of countless documents that were “heretical”. The treatment of Galileo was on my mind at the time. Overall hindering freedom of speech to control the masses was done well by religious organizations. Luckly as we have progressed societies

Even amateur historians know that in the west the church was the only light and the bastion of learning even thru the dark ages when education was pretty much wiped out. The monasteries maintained philosophy and the sciences. Discoveries in the last millennium which paved the way for the acceleration in knowledge we’re experiencing now were almost all by western believers.

Well I’m not even an amature historian… And i’m sure it was the light… as long as you werent trying to hold a different view point. Say if i said - that the world was not the center of the universe insead the sun was the center of our solar system. Crazy i know… If i head freinds in the church i might get lucky and recive a house arrest, i’m completely speculating on this though…

I’m actually intrested why over the ages the church has let go of such totalitarian cencorship ways. I mean now they really can’t and maybe that was it. Private institutions and of education arrose, seperation of church and state, and over time it just got harder and harder for the magistratum to censor the populace…

I mean really what else was there than the church throughout the west. They had the money they had the power. Sure there may have been a few

Galileo was a believer. Don’t presume to think for him about his faith. I guess the church used its universities and hospitals and orphanages and schools and countless acts of charity to suppress people. So her people did bad things too? Haven’t we all? But wait a minute. You don’t even believe in evil so on what basis can you judge the church anyway?

well it’s intresting you mentioned galelio, his faith is his faith thats a personal thing for him (I dont think you should think for him either)… But the church did hinder his findings and discovery. It’s not like they ridiculed him and ignored him, like previous dogmatic scientists have done. No they put him under house arrest. I really dont care the relgious beliefs of an individgual who makes a discovery.

Of course the church was the only bastion of learning, saying something that disagreed with them could mean your death. they stoped alot of progress that could have happened. They did not allow anything that was against there dogmatic teachings. If you did say anything that disagreed with them you were a witch or a heretic and burnt alive…

I’m probably generalising to much

Okay thats it my post looks way to random… becauase i quit… i just watched 11 episodes of ******** and the irrationality is doing my head in… posting on a catholic forum wont make no where enough difference… I’m going to try and make a difference and bring rationality to the world, at least a little bit, i have no ****ing idea how…

I’ll be reading but not posting… Good luck to all the rational people on these boards…

 

[fhansen]

I’ll be reading but not posting… Good luck to all the rational people on these boards…

What I’m saying is that any wrong that people have done, including popes, in the name of God or the church or themselves or whatever has been because they were not listening to or following the gospel of the church but were doing what they wanted to do…