what if...

[Mr.Bee]

you know what mr. bee, your not gonna get the best of me…i am 15 and im gonna take the high road and not get all pissy because your insulting my faith.

your 43 be more mature and not say 'nuf said …thats i have never disrespected your belifes or any others on this forum.

your wiccan friend,

cody (reborn_pagan)

I apologize, I didn’t mean to insult you.

One of the pitfalls and dangers of these online forums is the tendency for misunderstanding. I believe it is impossible to have a serious and fulfilling discussion over the internet, so we resort to silly tit-for-tat confrontations.

You are very interesting and mature, and bring up a lot of valid points in your discussions, and I’m merely interjecting my point of view, I’m not trying to save you, I’m having enough trouble trying to save myself. Believe it or not, I’m having serious doubts about my Christian faith, a reason I recently returned to this maddening forum,and to be honest with you, your questions and (percieved doubts) have answered some important questions, like: none of us have any of the answers… it seems obvious doesn’t it? That very few people in these discussions have anything important to say? (There I go insulting people again) but that’s the beauty oof the internet, you can insult a bunch of people without consequences.

I truely respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree with some of your beliefs - I can do that because the fact you entered this forum and discussions says to me you are asking for disagreement. If it’s validation you want from these discussions you are in the wrong place, and I suspect you’re smart enough to realize that. So I ask you again; Why are you asking these questions when you already know the answer? Why are you asking people if they want you to stay or not? What does it matter if you truely believe in your values?

All I can say in reply is, I believe you are searching for something more, as most of us are. Otherwise your questions are merely picking a fight, and I don’t believe that is the case.

My current favorite quote from Mahatma Gandhi “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”.

Godspeed my wiccan friend

 

[Mr.Bee]

okay i may say MY deites…and its deites please spell it right…

your twisting my words to make me sound selfish and its not going to work, when i say my deities its the ones i chose to worship, just like how you say “my god”

You’re not one to correct my spelling

 

[cheese_sdc]

…very few people in these discussions have anything important to say…

Quoted for truth!

 

[TOP]

Reborn ask a specific question and I answered him according to my situation. I’ve been in remission from cancer for 3 years now. At any time , my lifespan can be reduced to months. My 15 y.o. son knows and has known the responsibilities that are expected from him. One of them is to nuture his younger siblings in the faith, especially in my absence. The maturity level expected of him since he was 12 has been more then most kids have to deal with. That is why I had such a passionate response to your “what if” question. It wasn’t an attack on you or your beliefs. Tim

 

[JonathanKinsman]

…so what yoru saying is that paganism is just as dangerous as drugs,booze,and risky sexual behavior??

and when i became a pagan i was so much happier than a christian. i am now getting ready to take collage classes this fall and graduate to become a psychatrist, in no way i find that destructive

Cody,

Do you mean ‘psychologist’ instead of psychiatrist?

A psychologist starts with a four-year degree (majoring in psychology, naturally!) while a psychiatrist is a medical doctor with a specialty (like ENT for example).

Good luck in college; take classes that challenge you, not ones which you think would be easy.

I guess by reading this thread I understand that you meant ‘chivalry’ in your earlier quotation. That is not a wiccan or pagan ‘code.’ It is a Catholic code of behavior developed by Christian (Catholic) knights in the early middle ages.

A very good overview and introduction to Christendom and history are Will Durant’s books and one by Gombrich (A Little History of the World). This will give you a leg up on what you might get hit with in your first two years of general requirements.

 

[kellie]

…did i say it was about me? no, i was just saying that when i became a pagan, i was no longer in depression. i didn’t need prozac, im not bieng selfish i honor my deites and put others ahead of myself

and you can bealive that being a pagan is all about me, but oh well i can’t change that

Prozac at 15?

 

[Montalban]

…so what yoru saying is that paganism is just as dangerous as drugs,booze,and risky sexual behavior??

and when i became a pagan i was so much happier than a christian. i am now getting ready to take collage classes this fall and graduate to become a psychatrist, in no way i find that destructive

If you measure ‘good’ by happy, then why not take drugs, booze and indulge in risky behaviour? Are they not then ‘good’?

 

[rayne89]

Personally it would break my heart. Our daughter knows her faith and has such a love of Christ I can’t imagine her turning her back on that.

No not all religions are equal, I’m sorry if that is not politically correct or offends people. To say that all religions are equal or it doesn’t matter what religion you are as long as you are a good person, goes against the Catholic faith that I believe in. I won’t ask you to go against your beliefs if you don’t ask me to go against mine.

I believe Catholicism it the faith founded by God -Jesus Christ. I’m not going to be happy if my daughter turns her back on that. I’m not going to say as long as you’re happy. I’m not going to say as long as you are a good person it doesn’t matter. Because it does matter. What I live and breath as part of my daily life is my faith in Christ and for my daughter to turn her back on that, it could endanger her soul. Why on earth would I be at all ok with that?

I would sit with her and talk about why she would consider such a thing. We would look over the history of paganism and of Christ’s Church. And I would pray unceasingly that she returned to the faith. Because I love my daughter, and I would die for my daughter and the last thing I would want is for her to put her soul in peril which is what our faith teaches if she gets involved in paganism.

If that offends you I can’t help that. It’s not an attack on you as a person. I’ve known and been friends with wiccans and they are generally nice people. But I would not risk my daughter’s soul in the name of being non-judgemental.

My daughter knows of many other faith beliefs, and we explain them in light of the Catholic teachings so she can know the difference. She’s only 11 but I pray that her faith remains as strong as it now throughout her life.

 

[reborn_pagan]

Prozac at 15?

what can i say, i was depressed…

 

[reborn_pagan]

If you measure ‘good’ by happy, then why not take drugs, booze and indulge in risky behaviour? Are they not then ‘good’?

why wouldn’t you?, to your happy bieng a catholic, and serving your god is good to you…and from what you say so is taking drugs,booze,and having sex with anything that has a pulse…

now i choose personally not to do it because it takes away from one’s life…and my girlfriend said she’ll kill me if i do

 

[reborn_pagan]

Personally it would break my heart. Our daughter knows her faith and has such a love of Christ I can’t imagine her turning her back on that.

No not all religions are equal, I’m sorry if that is not politically correct or offends people. To say that all religions are equal or it doesn’t matter what religion you are as long as you are a good person, goes against the Catholic faith that I believe in. I won’t ask you to go against your beliefs if you don’t ask me to go against mine.

I believe Catholicism it the faith founded by God -Jesus Christ. I’m not going to be happy if my daughter turns her back on that. I’m not going to say as long as you’re happy. I’m not going to say as long as you are a good person it doesn’t matter. Because it does matter. What I live and breath as part of my daily life is my faith in Christ and for my daughter to turn her back on that, it could endanger her soul. Why on earth would I be at all ok with that?

I would sit with her and talk about why she would consider such a thing. We would look over the history of paganism and of Christ’s Church. And I would pray unceasingly that she returned to the faith. Because I love my daughter, and I would die for my daughter and the last thing I would want is for her to put her soul in peril which is what our faith teaches if she gets involved in paganism.

If that offends you I can’t help that. It’s not an attack on you as a person. I’ve known and been friends with wiccans and they are generally nice people. But I would not risk my daughter’s soul in the name of being non-judgemental.

My daughter knows of many other faith beliefs, and we explain them in light of the Catholic teachings so she can know the difference. She’s only 11 but I pray that her faith remains as strong as it now throughout her life.

dont worry im not offended, i understand where your coming from i used to be the same way when i was christian…

but my question is that if i become as much of a saint as possible but am still wiccan, then god won’t reconize my good deeds but only see me as a nonbealiver and automatically send me to hell?

 

[Montalban]

why wouldn’t you?, to your happy bieng a catholic, and serving your god is good to you…and from what you say so is taking drugs,booze,and having sex with anything that has a pulse…

now i choose personally not to do it because it takes away from one’s life…and my girlfriend said she’ll kill me if i do

I’m not Catholic.

I don’t do what I do because it *feels *good but because it is good.

That’s the point. Something is good to me because it is objectively so. Something is good for you because it corresponds to whatever makes you feel good -therefore good is entirely dependant upon your feelings at any one time. Therefore its not good in any absolute sense. You then have problems when your feeling of good clashes with another persons feeling of good.

What if my feeling of good means toturing you?

 

[reborn_pagan]

I’m not Catholic.

I don’t do what I do because it *feels *good but because it is good.

That’s the point. Something is good to me because it is objectively so. Something is good for you because it corresponds to whatever makes you feel good -therefore good is entirely dependant upon your feelings at any one time. Therefore its not good in any absolute sense. You then have problems when your feeling of good clashes with another persons feeling of good.

What if my feeling of good means toturing you?

well i would respect whatever your opinion is, but i won’t twist your words around though like mr.bee has done…and what i do that is good, is not for me but for others…i go help someone with picking up there books because it helps them out, i give to charity even though i know atleast 97 percent of it goes into someones back pocket… and that in my opinion is good and it feels good doing it, but not just for me, but for the person or people i helped

 

[Montalban]

well i would respect whatever your opinion is, but i won’t twist your words around though like mr.bee has done…and what i do that is good, is not for me but for others…i go help someone with picking up there books because it helps them out, i give to charity even though i know atleast 97 percent of it goes into someones back pocket… and that in my opinion is good and it feels good doing it, but not just for me, but for the person or people i helped

regarding these tasks you do
a) why are they good?
b)Does it make you feel good?

 

[kellie]

dont worry im not offended, i understand where your coming from i used to be the same way when i was christian…

How were you ever Christian if you were never baptised?

 

[KarenNC]

How were you ever Christian if you were never baptised?

There are many Protestant sects that do not follow the practice of infant baptism (though many others do). They teach that baptism is something that can only be done with full understanding and, therefore, only by someone who has reached the age of reason.

At least some of those churches, can’t say about all, practice infant dedication instead

christianity.about.com/od/babydedication/f/babydedication.htm

" A Baby Dedication is a ceremony in which believing parents, and sometimes entire families, make a committment before the Lord to submit a child to God’s will and to raise that child according to God’s Word and God’s ways.
Responsibilities Involved in Baby Dedication

Christian parents who dedicate a child are making a promise to the Lord to do everything within their power to raise the child in a godly way, prayerfully until he or she can make a decision on his or her own to follow God. Parents who make this vow of committment are instructed to raise the child in the ways of God, and not according to their own ways. Some of the responsiblities include teaching and training the child in God’s Word, demonstrating an example of godliness, disciplining according to God’s ways, and praying earnestly for the child."

Basically if a child is born into a Christian household and is raised by his parents in the practices of the Christian faith as well as presents him or herself as a Christian, most people would consider that that child should be labeled a Christian, whether s/he is old enough for baptism or not, and whether they were dedicated as an infant or not.

In my view, it boils down to what you believe makes a person a Christian–the person’s belief or a specific act of another human?

 

[reborn_pagan]

There are many Protestant sects that do not follow the practice of infant baptism (though many others do). They teach that baptism is something that can only be done with full understanding and, therefore, only by someone who has reached the age of reason.

At least some of those churches, can’t say about all, practice infant dedication instead

christianity.about.com/od/babydedication/f/babydedication.htm

" A Baby Dedication is a ceremony in which believing parents, and sometimes entire families, make a committment before the Lord to submit a child to God’s will and to raise that child according to God’s Word and God’s ways.
Responsibilities Involved in Baby Dedication

Christian parents who dedicate a child are making a promise to the Lord to do everything within their power to raise the child in a godly way, prayerfully until he or she can make a decision on his or her own to follow God. Parents who make this vow of committment are instructed to raise the child in the ways of God, and not according to their own ways. Some of the responsiblities include teaching and training the child in God’s Word, demonstrating an example of godliness, disciplining according to God’s ways, and praying earnestly for the child."

Basically if a child is born into a Christian household and is raised by his parents in the practices of the Christian faith as well as presents him or herself as a Christian, most people would consider that that child should be labeled a Christian, whether s/he is old enough for baptism or not, and whether they were dedicated as an infant or not.

In my view, it boils down to what you believe makes a person a Christian–the person’s belief or a specific act of another human?

yeah what karen said

 

[kellie]

yeah what karen said

Oh ok, thanks KarenNC, I never realised that.

reborn_pagan, what denomination were you raised in then?

 

[KindredSoul]

…so what yoru saying is that paganism is just as dangerous as drugs,booze,and risky sexual behavior??

By no means would Paganism in and of itself be “just as dangerous” as those things in this lifetime, but spiritually and eternally, it may or may not be just as dangerous for all people (the Church can never say for sure that people of other faiths do make it, just that it isn’t impossible and that if it is indeed by no fault of their own that they do not find Catholicism’s Truth, they may obtain salvation), and most likely has been as dangerous for many (for instance, those who would actually be disapointed if they considered Catholicism as true, who actually dislike the Catholic/Christian concept of God; thus their Paganism is a direct rejection of God).

Unfortunately though it may be, if any of us Catholics had children who turned their back on the Faith for the sake of Paganism, or any other religion, they almost certainly (if not certainly) would fit under the second category–they’ve known the Truth (to call it such and not simply “one truth” or one “possibility” is a virtue of our Faith, and no offense is intended) and have allowed it to slip away.

There’s a very good chance, from our worldview, that at least a tiny part of their willingness to let go of their beliefs was not just “being unbiased” (I doubt anyone truly is; it usually takes something to soften their prior commitment and make it less attractive before even the hardest “evidence” could change one’s mind) but rather that some part of them disliked the Catholic concept of God, or found it less than preferable. If the Catholic concept of God is to be believed, then it is an accurate concept, and thus to dislike that concept or to consider it flawed or unpreferable is to dislike God in that fashion. It ceases to be a neutral decision, and becomes a direct, careless insult aimed at God Himself. It’s not hard, then, to see why it is a terrifying thought to many of us that, if we raised Catholic children, they might turn away from the Faith. They are by default in more potential danger than someone who has been, say, a Pagan for his/her entire life.

Of course, any polytheist will not agree with any of this logic. I understand and respect that even though I obviously do not share the polytheistic outlook; I hope such understanding and respect are mutual, however. If so, then it should be perfectly clear why a Catholic would want to prevent his/her children from leaving the Faith.

 

[Montalban]

I find paganism seems to attract self-indulgent persons; people who want to make their own rules of what is* right* and wrong.

In this way it is hedonism.