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MariaG
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For those who don’t do links, here are a few exerpts from Scott’s source, Thanks Scott
So the Church has never said that purgatory involves the same kind of time as we experience here on earth, or even time at all. Thus Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, no theological liberal, writes that purgatory may involve “existential” rather than “temporal” duration (cf. Ratzinger’s book Eschatology). It may be someone one experiences, but experiences in a moment, rather than something one endures over time.
You see, Protestant are very firm (in fact, insistent) about the fact that we continue sinning until the end of this life because of our corrupt nature. However, they are equally firm (if you press them) about the fact that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification – a purification – of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as we have seen, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that is purgatory by definition – the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms, “the final sanctification” or “the last rush of sanctification.”
I hope you read the whole article for yourself, but here are some highlights!
So the Church has never said that purgatory involves the same kind of time as we experience here on earth, or even time at all. Thus Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, no theological liberal, writes that purgatory may involve “existential” rather than “temporal” duration (cf. Ratzinger’s book Eschatology). It may be someone one experiences, but experiences in a moment, rather than something one endures over time.
You see, Protestant are very firm (in fact, insistent) about the fact that we continue sinning until the end of this life because of our corrupt nature. However, they are equally firm (if you press them) about the fact that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification – a purification – of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as we have seen, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that is purgatory by definition – the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms, “the final sanctification” or “the last rush of sanctification.”
I hope you read the whole article for yourself, but here are some highlights!
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MariaG
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So as the article stated, we certainly may immediately go to heaven with our Lord, but we will be made completely Holy (and possibly instantaneously). This is what Purgatory is. As a Catholic Christian, I did not know it could be instantaneous, but clearly the Church knew! Thank You God. I do not have to rely on my own meager understanding of that which you reveal to me, but can study those who have much greater minds and have been showered in the understanding of the Holy Spirit!
Maybe it should be titled “how to Explain Purgatory to Protestants and Catholics”
God Bless
Maybe it should be titled “how to Explain Purgatory to Protestants and Catholics”
God Bless
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jeffreedy789
Guest
maria - this ‘Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification – a purification – of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as we have seen, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory.’ is exactly what i tell my protestant friends when the subject of purgatory comes up.
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mayra_hart
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where does the bible refer to the doctrine of purgatory? mt12:32: “and whoever says a word against the son man will be forgiven;but whoever speaks against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”. jesus implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. sin cannot be forgiven in hell. there is no sin to be forgiven in heaven. any remission of sin in then next world can occur in purgatory. personally i think that i don’t mind expending some time in purgatory is that what god wants for me i accepted. is this is the way for heaven is find. bless you all
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edwinG
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Hi Tom,
Acts10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word"
and the list goes on and on.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is available to all, commanded by Jesus and sent also as a helper and a comfortor. Should you ignore this enormous gift given at the cost of Christ’s blood and body because the Holy Spirit could not be poured out upon the earth until Jesus had completed His mission. And you can ignore Him, the Holy Spirit. You seem to have a COMPLETE lack of faith in the ability of the Holy Spirit, who is Gods Spirit. Tom Tom think about this. I am sure you cant mean it. Maybe your loyalities are confusing you. Before Christ left He told us He would send the Holy Spirit instead as a replacement.Jesus is available to all. We lost Jesus on earth but we gained the Holy Spirit who is Christ to us. Through the Holy Spirit we have direct access to Christ. The Holy Spirit LIVES and Christ LIVES and they are ONE and you are rejecting HIM by placing the roman catholic church above HIM. Do you really mean this Tom?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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MariaG
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Hi edwin,
Tom wrote a disclaimer about 9 posts down. I think it more fully explains his position. But if you wish to travel in that direction, I would appreciate a new thread.
This thread is broad enough, discussing Catholic Traditions that people think contradict Scripture.
Thanks,
Maria
Tom wrote a disclaimer about 9 posts down. I think it more fully explains his position. But if you wish to travel in that direction, I would appreciate a new thread.
This thread is broad enough, discussing Catholic Traditions that people think contradict Scripture.
Thanks,
Maria
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RBushlow
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Oops. I was in a hurry. I meant to post this in non-Catholic religions since I was mostly looking for non-Catholic reasons not Catholic beliefs. Is there any way for the thread to get moved over there?
**TOM [/QUOTE said:
I would agree that, ultimately, this is what it does come down to.
But Catholics do have Scripture that supports the primacy of Peter. I particularly like the one with feed my lambs, tend my sheep, and feed my sheep. Since I just recently realized that it said thisit was so cool to finally really see this verse for the first time! And frankly, from a Catholic perspective, it is so beautiful and clear. Christ was talking to Peter. And Christ told Peter to feed the lambs (lay people), tend the sheep (other pastors), and feed the sheep. Christ gave Peter the job of tending and feeding everyone. Looks like a Pope to me:yup:
But what do my separated Brethren think?
Your sister in Christ,
MariaOne minor correction. Just to keep the record straight, you had an error in the source of your quote. It was from **TOM **as I have shown above.
Dominus vobiscum.
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MariaG
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oops. I have made more mistakes in the last 4 days than I think the entire time I have been on this site. Since I have been fighting a sinus infection on top of allergies, I’ll plead illness!
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Tom
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Hi Edwin, Always a pleasure to chat with you. What I’m getting at here was that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from error and sin, not the individual person.
edwinG:
edwinG:
edwinG:
Edwin, I’m not ignoring the gift of the Holy Spirit, it’s a wonderful gift. It is God. I have complete faith in God, but I understand His help. I understand I am a sinful person, it is only with His help that I will make it into heaven. I also understand He will not force me to follow Him, it must be from my free will. The Holy Spirit does not make man a robot.
edwinG:
edwinG:
edwinG:
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.
Tom
Absolutely, and who was present and heard the word ? Peter and the Apostles. Not the multitudes. We do in fact receive the grace of the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit does not keep us from sinning, nor did the Spirit keep the Apostles from sinning. It guides the Church, not the individual. No one would doubt that the Holy Spirit was in Peter, yet, Peter in fact sinned, after receiving the Holy Spirit. He was not protected individually from sin and error. God does not force us to obey, we must do it of our own free will. He surely helps us, but we can and often do refuse.
Amen
Holy Spirit is available to all, you and I each have the Spirit, yet, and you and I can still sin. He doesn’t stop us from sinning, He does indeed give us strength to not sin, but in the end it’s our choice. The Holy Spirit is (hopefully) with each and every one of the (over) 35,000 different Protestant churches. He didn’t protect the individuals who broke away from the Church, He promised to guide His Church, not the individual.
Edwin, I’m not ignoring the gift of the Holy Spirit, it’s a wonderful gift. It is God. I have complete faith in God, but I understand His help. I understand I am a sinful person, it is only with His help that I will make it into heaven. I also understand He will not force me to follow Him, it must be from my free will. The Holy Spirit does not make man a robot.
No, my loyalties are with God. Following His Church is following God, rejecting His Church is rejecting God.
who specifically is this “us” you refer to? Was the audience the masses? Was it the hundreds of disciples? Was it the Apostles? Yes, we receive the Holy Spirit individually, but He does not protect you and I from error does He? He does protect the Church, which by the way, is still the Catholic Church. Edwin, surely you admit that even though we have the Spirit we still sin? Yes He helps us, but He does not control us (unfortunately).
No Edwin, wrong assumption. No Catholic (that I know of) places the Church above God. To reject His Church (the Catholic Church) is to reject He who sent it.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.
Tom
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rarndt01
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Maria
When Paul spoke of a person being saved even as by fire, he made no mention of purgatory at all. He was referring to the judgement of God when all men works will be put to the test, whether good or bad. This parallels II Cor 5:10.
Regarding II Cor 5:8, “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord” are joined by a present tense conjunction, which in Greek, demands no interval in time. This would be equivalent to us saying today , “I’m up and ready to go”. Also Paul spoke of Christians ALREADY having their citizenship in heaven at the time of having faith in Christ and not sometime in the distant future .Also Christ spoke the same of his apostles. See Phillipians 3:20(NIV) & Luke 10:20
When Paul spoke of a person being saved even as by fire, he made no mention of purgatory at all. He was referring to the judgement of God when all men works will be put to the test, whether good or bad. This parallels II Cor 5:10.
Regarding II Cor 5:8, “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord” are joined by a present tense conjunction, which in Greek, demands no interval in time. This would be equivalent to us saying today , “I’m up and ready to go”. Also Paul spoke of Christians ALREADY having their citizenship in heaven at the time of having faith in Christ and not sometime in the distant future .Also Christ spoke the same of his apostles. See Phillipians 3:20(NIV) & Luke 10:20
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AlanFromWichita
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That brings up something that has puzzled me for a long time about Catholic practices. Right offhand I don’t know of a particular source, but I’ll describe the issue. On various holy cards, novenas and other prayers and practices I’ve heard that engaging in them will take off some specific amount of time from our purgatory or that of others. I’ve always thought it was quite strange that we presume to know the mind of God to the extent that we can start putting mathematical formulae to purgatory. I also wondered what would happen if I was supposed to stay, for example, 100 years in purgatory but then I did 120 years worth of indulgences!
Anyway I can buy the fact that we do not presume to know the time frame involving purgatory. I find that much more plausible than saying stuff like if you say a prayer at 2 pm facing Mecca each day for thirty weeks, you’ll cut off 10 years of your purgatory time.:whacky:
Alan
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rarndt01
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The chief difficulty with purgatory is believing that a deceased Catholic relative is in that place and their time is shortened by masses said for them. Supposing old “Uncle Charlie” was a gambler, a boozer, or like having affairs on the side, but yet he managed to stumble into mass once every three to five years. He dies and the priest gives him his last rites. Is old Uncle Charlie REALLY in purgatory or is he in hell?
Paul says in I Corinthians 6:9-10 that NO drunkard and NO adulterer shall enter the kingdom of God. And Paul was speaking to CHRISTIANS. It sure seems to me for one to have any hope of heaven, one must be at LEAST a faithful and PRACTICING Catholic. One wonders just how many mass cards are filled out and prayers said for deceased Catholics who never were faithful to the church or practiced their religion to begin with?
The doctrine of purgatory is a DENIAL that all adulterers and drunkards who have not made penance will go to heaven anyway, after they are prayed out of purgatory. But this contradicts all of what Paul taught. Do you see my point?
Ron from Ohio
Paul says in I Corinthians 6:9-10 that NO drunkard and NO adulterer shall enter the kingdom of God. And Paul was speaking to CHRISTIANS. It sure seems to me for one to have any hope of heaven, one must be at LEAST a faithful and PRACTICING Catholic. One wonders just how many mass cards are filled out and prayers said for deceased Catholics who never were faithful to the church or practiced their religion to begin with?
The doctrine of purgatory is a DENIAL that all adulterers and drunkards who have not made penance will go to heaven anyway, after they are prayed out of purgatory. But this contradicts all of what Paul taught. Do you see my point?
Ron from Ohio
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Tom
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From catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, “The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture.” This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.
Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.
Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
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Della
Guest
Purgatory does not erase the temporal punishment of our sins. Rather purgatory is where we must pay for the consequences of those sins if we did not make amends for those consequences while we were alive. You see real damage is done to ourselves, to others, and to the Church as a whole when we commit sin. If we haven’t paid for that damage on earth we will pay for it in purgatory.
You are putting limits on God’s mercy here that He hasn’t. God requires repentance for our sins not a life that was perfect in every respect every day of our lives. If that were the case no one could be saved.
No, this does not contradict what Paul or any other Apostle taught. It is you who are contradicting Church teaching (which is the teaching of Paul and the Apostles handed on to them by Christ himself). You are denying that our prayers can do the souls in purgatory any good. Show that they can’t. Cite the passage in the Catechism (which liberally quotes the Scriptures) that our penances and prayers cannot/ought not to help the souls in purgatory.
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rarndt01
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Tom
Surprisingly, NONE of the texts you mentioned, mention a place called purgatory at all. Sure in the OT the Jews prayed for the dead in sheol or the netherworld. Because that’s where they were. No one was permitted into heaven, until Christ rose from the dead and made heaven possible.
As I posted previously, purgatory is NOT referred to in I Cor 3, but rather the judgement of God, the day when he shall try all men’s works, whether good or bad. See II Cor 5:10.
As for the early church, sure hey prayed for their loved ones and they asked there deceased loved ones to remember them as well. Where were these deceased loved ones that the living saints asked for prayer? In purgatory? No. They were in heaven or paradise. Even St Augustine asked his mother to pray for him. Many inscriptions are found in the old Roman catacombs, that say REMEMBER ME in prayer *****, who rests with Jesus.
There is NOT ONE inscription that asks a deceased saint to remember a living relative that resides in a place called purgatory. Not ONE!
All faithful and God fearing Catholics will go to be with the Lord at death. This is his promise. That WHERE I AM , YOU SHALL BE ALSO.
Ron from Ohio
Surprisingly, NONE of the texts you mentioned, mention a place called purgatory at all. Sure in the OT the Jews prayed for the dead in sheol or the netherworld. Because that’s where they were. No one was permitted into heaven, until Christ rose from the dead and made heaven possible.
As I posted previously, purgatory is NOT referred to in I Cor 3, but rather the judgement of God, the day when he shall try all men’s works, whether good or bad. See II Cor 5:10.
As for the early church, sure hey prayed for their loved ones and they asked there deceased loved ones to remember them as well. Where were these deceased loved ones that the living saints asked for prayer? In purgatory? No. They were in heaven or paradise. Even St Augustine asked his mother to pray for him. Many inscriptions are found in the old Roman catacombs, that say REMEMBER ME in prayer *****, who rests with Jesus.
There is NOT ONE inscription that asks a deceased saint to remember a living relative that resides in a place called purgatory. Not ONE!
All faithful and God fearing Catholics will go to be with the Lord at death. This is his promise. That WHERE I AM , YOU SHALL BE ALSO.
Ron from Ohio
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Tom
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If that’s really your “chief difficulty” you’re in luck!
rarndt01:
rarndt01:
rarndt01:
rarndt01:
Unless he repented and was forgiven his sins, old uncle Charlie is in hell regardless of his “religion”. We both know where he “probably” ended up, but neither of us knows for sure since we don’t know the judgement of God in an individual case.
No, but it certainly helps. The reason I say this is not because Catholics are better people, we’re just offered the fullness of faith. Each and every of the 35,000 different Protestant denominations rejects something of the true faith. That’s why they are Protestant. They protest against the Church Jesus established, they don’t like the way He established His Church. They may not like having to confess their sins to a priest, or they may not believe in the true presence of the Eucharist, or any number of protests. The Catholic Church is the only Church established by Jesus Himself.
Good question, I’m sure we’ve prayed for those poor souls who went to hell. God heard the prayers. I’m also sure we’ve prayed for those in purgatory and heaven.
Absolutely not! Those destined for hell are there, or headed there. Our prayers will not save them. Purgatory only leads to heaven, not to hell. You need to read the truth about Purgatory. Please refer to the link I provided. You don’t hate Catholic belief, you just don’t know Catholic beliefs.
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MariaG
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I am slightly confused here. This discussion was what Catholic Tradition contradicts the Bible. Purgatory was brought up. The objection to purgatory was that when a person in God’s grace dies, they will immediately be in heaven according to your interpretation of Scripture. I showed (acutually it was Scott, thank you Scott) that instantaneous cleansing, ie we immediately are present with God when we die, is not inconsistent with the official church teachings of purgatory.
So now your objection is the word purgatory is not in the Bible. I did not set out to prove purgatory is in the Bible, although clearly Catholics do interpret those verses as refering to purgatory, this is supposed to show that Catholic Tradition does not CONTRADICT the Bible. Sacred Tradition was not written, it was the oral Tradition of the Apostles. Since instaneous purgatory is an acceptable interpretation of the teaching of purgatory,What about the teaching of purgatory is contradictory to the Bible?
God Bless,
Maria
So now your objection is the word purgatory is not in the Bible. I did not set out to prove purgatory is in the Bible, although clearly Catholics do interpret those verses as refering to purgatory, this is supposed to show that Catholic Tradition does not CONTRADICT the Bible. Sacred Tradition was not written, it was the oral Tradition of the Apostles. Since instaneous purgatory is an acceptable interpretation of the teaching of purgatory,What about the teaching of purgatory is contradictory to the Bible?
God Bless,
Maria
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MichaelTDoyle
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Todd Easton:
This was a powerful post!
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rarndt01
Guest
Nope, for all Christ loving and faithful Catholics, to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.
Ron from Ohio- Status