What in Catholic Tradition contradicts the Bible?

[mayra_hart]

actually purgatory is the entranceway to heaven. it is not a second chance at heaven. it is temporarybecause only those people assured of heaven enter purgatory. the souls in purgatory are essentially happy because they know their eternal destiny is secure. madre querida acogeme en tu regazo,cubreme con tu manto protector y con ese dulce carino que nos tienes a tus hijos aleja de mi las trampas del enemigo, e intercede intensamente para impedir que sus astucias me hagan caer. amen

 

[MariaG]

Ron,

Nope what? As I pointed out, theologians have said that instantaneous cleasing, ie, when you die you will be with the Lord, does not contradict the teaching of Purgatory. Nope, you don’t believe you will be made holy before you meet out Lord? Nope you don’t want to call that Purgatory? Nope, that teaching still contradicts the Bible? Nope what?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[edwinG]

Tom:

What I’m getting at here was that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from error and sin, not the individual person.

HI Tom, thanks for your great post.
I agree with you, the Holy Spirit does not protect us from sin or from error. The Holy Spirit does lead us to tribulation as well.
As I am not catholic I see all sincere churches the same, insofar as they are headed by people. Now these people have a commission but like you and me they still retain free will and are subject to error. Peter himself was prone to error. Paul had to rebuke Peter for hypocrisy and leading others to it. Galatians2:11-14. I agree totally with you Tom.

Absolutely, and who was present and heard the word ? Peter and the Apostles. Not the multitudes.

No Tom, it was the multitudes. Acts10:45" And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as come with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also."

We do in fact receive the grace of the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit does not keep us from sinning, nor did the Spirit keep the Apostles from sinning. It guides the Church, not the individual.

The Holy Spirit guides you and me, who are members of the church, Christ’s Holy Body, making a temple for God.

No one would doubt that the Holy Spirit was in Peter, yet, Peter in fact sinned, after receiving the Holy Spirit. He was not protected individually from sin and error. God does not force us to obey, we must do it of our own free will. He surely helps us, but we can and often do refuse.
Amen
Holy Spirit is available to all, you and I each have the Spirit, yet, you and I can still sin. He doesn’t stop us from sinning, He didn’t protect the individuals who broke away from the Church, He promised to guide His Church, not the individual.

Tom I agree with you on almost every thing you post. I just can’t see His promise to guide any earthy church which is comprised of people. To me the Holy Spirit guides individual people, yes but this does not protect us from sin or mistakes. We still retain our own will. Through the power of the Holy Spirit I may conquer many of my sins, but I may love alcohol too much, so I find that in this part of my life I dont invite Christ in, I keep it for my self, the flesh rules in this area of my life, but if you invite Christ in through the power of the Holy Spirit you will conquer that sin, but in God’s time. Christ has all authority in heaven and earth except for times and seasons. We are assured of victory, not told when it will be, that allows us to grow in patience.

Edwin, I’m not ignoring the gift of the Holy Spirit, it’s a wonderful gift. It is God. I have complete faith in God, but I understand His help. I understand I am a sinful person, it is only with His help that I will make it into heaven. I also understand He will not force me to follow Him, it must be from my free will. The Holy Spirit does not make man a robot.

Edwin, surely you admit that even though we have the Spirit we still sin? Yes He helps us, but He does not control us (unfortunately).
No Edwin, wrong assumption. No Catholic (that I know of) places the Church above God. To reject His Church (the Catholic Church) is to reject He who sent it.

Tom I am not asking you to reject the Roman Catholic church, just make Christ in God your only master with no one inbetween. We need to have an earthly church, to love and support one another and have fellowship, this too is a commandment of Christ " to love one another"

May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.
Tom

My love to you Tom
Christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[francisca]

Originally Posted by Tom
What I’m getting at here was that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from error and sin, not the individual person.

Without the Holy Spirit guidance, an individual person can derive wrong teaching from the correct/ accurate one.

With the Holy Spirit, an individual person can understand the Truth, even if his human teachers are imperfect. (for who can understand God completely? Only God’s Spirit can understand God - 1Cor 2:16).

Holy Spirit is all an individual ever need to know God.

It is by the Holy Spirit, or nothing.

Even if the church is so “Spirit filled” / “Spiritly inspired” / “full of Spirit Charisms”, but the individual does not believe in the Spirit guidance in his “personal” life, then surely the church is useless for him and so the Spirit in the church can’t help him in his personal walk with God.

Therefore Jesus said if anyone sin against the Holy Spirit (unbelive in the Holy Spirit), he shall never receive pardon (can’t be saved).

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[Tom]

Hello Edwin, When we look at our different thoughts, they’re not so far apart. We use different words to describe basically the same thing. I enjoy discussing our differences with you. Thank you for the diolouge.

edwinG:

As I am not catholic I see all sincere churches the same, insofar as they are headed by people. Now these people have a commission but like you and me they still retain free will and are subject to error. Peter himself was prone to error. Paul had to rebuke Peter for hypocrisy and leading others to it. Galatians2:11-14.

Well, close, but not exactly what I see. The authorities given by the Holy Spirit varies. When Jesus speaks to a single person, as in Him giving the keys solely to Peter it’s to that one individual, when He speaks to the Apostles as a group He’s teaching to the Church, when He speaks to the masses He’s talking to you and I. For example:

Matthew 10:1 - And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

This power was not given to all of the people in Acts 10:45. Yes they received the Holy Spirit but the gifts were not the same as bestowed upon the Church (Apostles).
Reflect on John chaps 14 – 17. They are a moving testament to the Church. These teachings were to the Church (at the last supper), not the general populace, see Jn 16:

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This was at the last supper with the Church (Apostles) not the general populace. The Church (Apostles) is guided to all truth, not you and I or even the Apostles individually. You are absolutely correct in that Peter Paul, all of the Apostles made errors personally, but as a group, the Church, they never erred. As leader (pope) Peter never erred when teaching for the Church. Yes he made personal errors, and even sinned. As the leader of His Church Peter was protected from error, as is said in Jn 16:13, by the Holy Spirit.

 

[rarndt01]

Maria

Nope, Paul says nothing in his writings about faithful Christians who die, going to a place of being purified or naming a place called purgatory. He states that at death one is absent FROM the body and PRESENT WITH the Lord. It is an immediate presence of a Christian going to be with the Lord.

Maria, there is nothing wrong with traditional beliefs, but they must not DISAGREE with what is already stated clearly in scripture, but must be in harmony with scripture. The doctrine of purgatory teaches that Christians do not enter heaven at death and so there is a DELAY. But Paul never taught in writing that there is any delay. Do you see what I am saying now?

 

[Tom]

edwinG:

Tom I am not asking you to reject the Roman Catholic church, just make Christ in God your only master with no one inbetween. We need to have an earthly church, to love and support one another and have fellowship, this too is a commandment of Christ " to love one another"

God is my only master, but to obey Him I must obey the Words our savior gave us. He established His Church on earth, it doesn’t matter if I “like” the way He established it or not. The Catholic Church is the Church He established. Has been for close to 2,000 years. The problem with “no one in between” is, that it is not the way our Lord established it. He remained with the Church for 40 days after His death and resurrection, teaching them, establishing His Church. Now 2,000 years later we think we can do it alone? We don’t need the Church He established? When we reject the Church He gave us we reject Him. Please research the teachings of the Catholic Church, you’ll be surprised that our teachings are not against any Scripture, they are true.
Sure the people of the Church have problems, sin, and are down right disgraceful! What did we expect from the original 12? All 12 of His Apostles left Him, one even betrayed Him to death. His leader, Peter, even denied Him. Thomas denied He rose, only if he saw would he believe. We expect more from our present Church? But Edwin, that is what Jesus established. After His resurrection did He say to them “you guys deserted me, I’m outta here”? no, He came to them, those who ran, He came back to His Church. I think many are asking way more of His Church than He asked.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you my friend,
Tom

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Tom pretty much said it well. I’ll add that this is a typical false dilema (God vs. the Church) which we sometimes see in threads with cute titles like, “WHICH WILL YOU CHOOSE? JESUS OR RELIGION?” One glaring feature about the Bible is its anti-gnosticism. God is constantly acting in the real world using real people and things as instuments as opposed to spiritualizing everything to the point that it becomes mere abstract theory.

And then there is the matter of the canon of Scripture. Without a living Church, the belief that these books are inspired and others are not is completely arbitrary.

Scott

 

[srkbdk]

Tom:

Shibboleth, thanks for that link. It contains some interesting info. From what I read the forgeries had little affect, they were a commentary on the then current system. Fortunately they did not lead the Church to teach in error. They easily could have.

That is one of the great things about the Catholic Church it could not have lead the Church into error due to the promise of Christ.

 

[larryo]

Nothing. There is nothing in Catholic Church teaching that contradicts the Bible. The Bible is part of the Tradition of the Church handed down by Jesus through his apostles, the first bishops. When one thinks about it logically, the so-called doctrine of *sola scriptura *is absurd on its face. Where in the Bible does it say that *sola scriptura *is the only authoritative source for Church teaching? Where does the Bible address issues such as in vitro fertilization, cloning, euthanasia, and homosexual ‘marriage’?

 

[MariaG]

The doctrine of purgatory teaches that Christians do not enter heaven at death and so there is a DELAY. But Paul never taught in writing that there is any delay. Do you see what I am saying now?

No that is not what the doctrine teaches. It teaches we will be cleansed, not just forgiven, but cleased from all sin. Although the common belief is that purgatory is a place, the pope just spoke out on this issue and said otherwise. Along with the other theologian that was quoted, it is quite apparent that purgatory may be an instantaneous event that happens the moment a person dies in God’s Grace and no delay in going to heaven. The common belief is that people may spend a good deal of time in purgatory, but that is not the “official teaching” of the Catholic Church. The Church does not say whether or not “time” will be spent in purgatory, only that a final purification will be necessary before entering into God’s presence.
From the above link:
Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification – a purification – of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as we have seen, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that is purgatory by definition – the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms, “the final sanctification” or “the last rush of sanctification.”

However, along with the Scripture in 2 Macc 12:44-46 which talks of purification of the dead and our prayers helping to free them from sin, it is possible that it could take awhile. But time is not a quantity in heaven.

Although nowhere does Paul speak of a delay in getting to heaven, neither does he say it “Immediately happens”. But like I said before, even if you insist to interpret Scripture so that we go to heaven immediately,** there is nothing in the official Catholic Teaching that says purgatory is not immediate upon death.**

I always tell people there is what people believe and what they are supposed to believe. In the teaching in purgatory, there is nothing telling us how long if any time at all will be spent there. Look it up yourself, #1030 - 1032 in the Catechism.

I have said this before several times, but I will say it again. **The doctrine of Purgatory does not teach there will be a delay. **You are confusing the “common belief” of purgatory, and the official Doctrine of purgatory. You may be entirely right, there is no delay, but since the “official teaching” does not teach that there will be a delay, there is no Contradiction in Scripture no matter whose interpretation one uses.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[rarndt01]

Maria

If there is no delay for the faithful Catholic to enter into the presence of Christ upon one’s death, then why are mass cards being offered for dead Catholic relatives for years, if they believed their relatives went to heaven immediately at death? What you say and what the church DOES are two different things Maria. I know, I see the cards being offered.

Despite what you say, Paul never wrote of a purgatory after death, only being present with the Lord. I also posted to you where Paul had an IMMEDIATE presence in mind when he said “absent from the body and present with the Lord”. The Greek language DEMANDS it. Both verbs are joined by the same conjunction.

Ron from Ohio

 

[Tom]

rarndt01:

No one was permitted into heaven, until Christ rose from the dead and made heaven possible.

Hmmm… interesting argument, wrong but interesting. Doesn’t Old Testament Scripture tell us the prophets are in heaven? Or Abraham, or Jacob, how about Moses Elijah, Enoch? The last two were taken bodily into heaven.

 

[francisca]

Scott Waddell:

Tom pretty much said it well. I’ll add that this is a typical false dilema (God vs. the Church) which we sometimes see in threads with cute titles like, “WHICH WILL YOU CHOOSE? JESUS OR RELIGION?” One glaring feature about the Bible is its anti-gnosticism. God is constantly acting in the real world using real people and things as instuments as opposed to spiritualizing everything to the point that it becomes mere abstract theory.

I agree that an individual can’t “go alone” without any community. I believe that the church is important for everyone to grow together. (Ironically, most people who come to church does not get involved in any of church activities other than Sunday Mass).

But I would say that the Holy Spirit guide the Church, and so each and everyone individually has to be under the Holy Spirit guidance too. Because only by the Spirit, that one can understand what the church is teaching. It is mere theory to enforce “this teaching” and “that teaching” on people who don’t even “understand” those teachings. But the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Wisdom. The Holy Spirit makes us “believe”. And because I believe, then I understand, and therefore “I follow”.

Or-- in the contrary scenario (sadly this is common)-- one follows in “blind obedience” rules those drifts his attention from God who is merciful, to the “punishments” if “I don’t do what the church teach me”. Or even another scenario : “God is merciful, so I don’t think I need to fear Him anymore” .

The Church has law. This law we can’t follow fully unless we believe. When we believe, we are given a Helper. This Helper is not only “guidace” but also “consolation” and “power” and “defense” and “counsel” and “wisdom” and “understanding” and “truth” and “life”.

Trusting God means the Holy Spirit. Anyone wants to trust God fully must walk in the light of God which is The Holy Spirit which is eternal Life Itself.

The Church is not a mere institution and body of definition of teachings and laws, but rather, it is A MYSTERY. This mystery is to be revealed to each person INDIVIDUALLY in his personal meditation of the MYSTERY of FAITH.

The Mystery of Faith shall be revealed to a personal relationship with God. This personal relationship is The Holy Spirit (by which we cry “Abba, Father”).

Because God share His deepest secrets to individuals not to an institution. These individuals create a community that is called church, so the church reveals the secrets because God has revealed those to individuals in it. So then these individuals share their experience to strengthen each other.

1Corinthians 2
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may UNDERSTAND the things freely given us by God.
13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms.

Read the whole chapter of 1Cor 2:
nccbuscc.com/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians2.htm

God bless

 

[mayra_hart]

although the bible never mentions the word"purgatory" it does make clear that there is a third place besides heaven and hell: “for christ… went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago” (1 pet3;18-20). because the authority of the church teaches that the third place is purgatory, that is the name i use,as well. bless you all

 

[Exporter]

Originally it was asking us to use a Lutheran definition of Sola Scriptura to answer this question: “What part of Catholocism contridicts the Bible?” Is that correct?

This question cannot be answered! Since Catholocism uses Tradition of the Early Fathers and the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scriptures to face modern problems…and The “Bible Only” Protestants don’t accept tradition( spoken or written) we are out of luck.

**You cant use Protestantism to answer Catholic questions. **

 

[MariaG]

Hi Ron,
2Macc 12:44-46 tells us that it is a “holy and pious thought” to pray for the dead.
The official teaching of the Catholic Church puts no time definition on purgatory.

I truly have a hard time understanding why a person who claims to be Catholic has a problem with this when Scripture tells us it is a good thing to do, and official teaching has no time defintion of the final cleansing, also known as purgatory.

Unless you do not recognize Maccabees as inspired. But then that would mean you think the Catholic Church is in error as pertains to the official canon.
God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

**

**This question cannot be answered! Since Catholocism uses Tradition of the Early Fathers and the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scriptures to face modern problems…and The “Bible Only” Protestants don’t accept tradition( spoken or written) we are out of luck.

You cant use Protestantism to answer Catholic questions.http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif**

---

**I disagree. While we certainly can point to the early Fathers to show what they believed on things like purgatory, (prayers for the dead inscribed on the tombs of 1st century Christians) and the Real Presence (writing after writing denouncing those who deny the body and blood of Chritst), we can look at Scripture and show that Catholics can interpret it in this way. We can use Scripture to show that nothing in Catholic Tradition CONTRADICTS the Bible according to the interpretation of the Catholic Church. And then the question is “Why is your interpretation more valid than mine?”

 

[Tom]

** ** the question is “Why is your interpretation more valid than mine?”

And the answer is: Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would lead the Church to all wisdom (Jn 16:13), not the individual, and certainly not “other” churches that broke away from the Church He established. There are over 35,000 different Protestant churches each teaching their own separate “truth” There are not 35,000 different truths, there is only one, as there is only one Church that Jesus established. I pray that our separated brothers and sisters will return to the Church Jesus established, the Catholic Church.

 

[rarndt01]

Maria
Nope, Paul told Christians that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. That is if one is faithful til the end.