What in Church teaching is infallable and must be believed and what is not?

[distracted]

thanks for all the answers…

wish i had time to read all this… but don’t have i-net at home…!!!

God bless…

 

[LittleSoldier]

The reason such a person is not invincibly ignorant is very obvious. Once a person hears the truth, they are no longer ignorant of it. They might reject it, but they are no ignorant of it. As soon as the truth is presented to the intellect the will chooses between accepting it as true, or rejecting it. As soon as teh truth is made known to them, they have a moral obligation to accept it. And the more often the truth is presented, and the more clearly it is presented, the greater their obligation to accept it.

I think that anyone who rejects Truth is doing so because they don’t see it as Truth. We should pray, with humility, that Truth is evident to everyone.

So, I guess Hitler wasn’t guilty in God’s eyes for murdering all the people he did. After all, since his conscience had been blinded through repeated sin, he was “immune” from future guilt. I’m going to avoid addressing that point. My only comment is to say that such people are also not invincibly ignorant. That was what the Pope meant. Since they their conscience was virtually dead, they cannot be considered *invincibly ignorant *. Why? Because their their blindness is due to their own fault. As a consequence, they will be unable to hear (accept) the truth. Such people are on the broad road to perdition and if they die in that state they will be lost.

I disagree. Hitler may not have been guilty in God’s eyes for all the murders he committed. There is evidence (I apologize for not having a source as I read this years ago) that Hitler suffered from manic-depression which is a psychosis. A psychotic person does not process reality correctly and their thought processes are disordered. I’m sure God would know if Hitler were mentally ill when the atrocities were committed and I’m sure God is also aware of any and all factors leading to Hitler’s actions.

Also, what if Hitler confessed and atoned in his last few seconds of life? True, he did commit suicide but that can be seen as further indication of his psychosis. Only God knows the truth.

As only God knows the truth, only God knows whether Hitler was to blame. Only God knows if Hitler’s “blindness” was his own fault.

 

[Lutheranteach]

They have already left the Church. Such a person is no longer in communion with the Catholic Church. Therefore, should not approach the altar for communion. They may still be physically present, but they no longer belong to the Church. They have what is known as an imperfect communion with the Church.

An imperfect communion with the Church is when one posesses and subscribes to some of the truths of the faith, but not to all. This is the case of the Reformation communities. In the case of the Reformation communities, they are not heretics, because this is what they inherited from their forefathers. In the case of a Catholic, he or she is a heretic, because these were not the beliefs that they inherited. These are their own beliefs that they want to impose on the Church or beliefs that they choose to deny.

We must pray for people of any faith who deny the truths that they have come to know.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’m not sure that I have ever met a Catholic who wasn’t in imperfect communion then. I can’t say that those I know are unaware, or don’t understand Catholic teachings. They simply reject them and have no intention of accepting them and in a few cases (Father in Law most notably) has rejected them for 30 or 40 years. But, he would never leave the Catholic Church. If all these so-called “cultural Catholics” were to leave I can’t see it being anything but staggering.

 

[LittleSoldier]

No one can guarantee who goes to hell or not. There is what we call objective morality. We can say that objectively speaking a person who is in a grave state of sin and chooses to remain in that state is choosing to live without God. Therefore, if that person should die, they will continue to exist without God, which is hell.

That being said, this is objective. The Church and no individual has any way of knowing what happens between the soul and God at the moment of death. Therefore, you will always hear the Church speak of those who go to heaven (ie. saints) and not the damned. We don’t know who the damned are. We do know who the saints are. We know them by name.

For example, some people have tried to say that Stalin, Hitler, Caesar, Herod, etc are in hell. But the Church has never made such statements. Those statements are made by private individuals, not official statements from the Church. Objectively they committed very evil actions. However, we have no idea what happened between the soul and God at the moment of death.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

This helps very much!! I have seen a lot of people judging other people since I’ve been on this forum (I actually have a much higher post count because I changed my user name and lost the post count under my first user name).

I’ve actually debated Hitler with my brother-in-law who is Jewish. My brother-in-law insisted that Hitler went to hell because of the atrocities he was involved in. My point was that only God knew absolutely everything about Hitler - even things that Hitler was not aware of himself and God was the only one who could judge him. And like you stated, “we have no idea what happened between the soul and God at the moment of death.”

Thank you.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The Mercy of God, something often overlooked in the quest for orthodox interpretation of Church Magisterial teaching and rules, would not have let you get to the point of final damnation without a chance of accepting His salvation. If a sparrow fail to fall from the sky without the Father and if the hairs of your head are all numbered, then your journey is dependent on your acceptance now, not then and certainly not postponed till later.

St. Faustina writes that Jesus said He calls three times to the sinner to repent at the hour of death. As “God is in the whisper”, it is important to be open to the stillness of God and not arrogant, worried, or indifferent.

Thank you. Very beautifully written!! I love what St. Faustina said - I have a book by her (or maybe it’s about her. I’m not sure because it has been misplaced) which I need to find. She is very wise.

I was extremely upset last night and spent a long time on the phone with a friend who is Catholic. I had let myself be drawn away from the love of God. I let myself turn God into a vengeful monster who is just waiting for one of us to fall so that He can pounce on that person to send him/her to hell and I found that idea to be terrifying. I know God loves me and I know God is not evil. I know that God wants me in heaven with Him. I have every intention of going there to be with Him.

 

[LittleSoldier]

who cares if they don’t want to submit to the Church. They are either ignornat of how the Church is THE Church established by Chirst and/or thye don’t want to comply with all the teachings because they just don’t want to… uh… belive “hard” things…

anyone who doens’t accept the teaching on abortion is NOT Catholic … My dfinition of Catholic is someone who believes as the Catholic Church teaches & attmepts to practice that… a no brainer definition… THE definition…

I ran across the “following one’s conscience” problem in the last abortion debate in which I was involved. I’d never heard of that before and yet the person posting it made it sound like refusing to “follow one’s conscience” is a far greater sin than procuring (or providing) an abortion!!

The thread was pulled (at my request) so we didn’t get into a lengthy discussion at that time but I’m afraid it’s going to show up again. The person who posted the “following one’s conscience” labeled himself as a Catholic and that really confused me.

Evidently there are a large number of Catholics who believe that it’s OK to procure (or provide) abortions and stay Catholic and I would think that many of them partake in Communion, even though I believe (I may be wrong) that one who commits this sin is automatically excommunicated.

So I’m following this thread with great interest and trying to store up any info I can that can be used to debunk this sort of thinking. The Church has made it extremely clear that abortion is wrong. Dead wrong. The organization “Catholics for Choice” uses every rationalization they can come up with to show that it’s OK for a Catholic to have an abortion. Bizarre.

 

[edwest2]

Understand what the Church teaches and why. There is no such thing as a (fill in the blank) Catholic. There are no Catholic liberals or conservatives or traditionalists. There are only Catholics who know, understand and are obedient toward Church teaching.

Over the last 40 years, I have watched my fellow Catholics slowly, gradually be led astray. This did not happen overnight. Instead of standing firmly with the Church, a handful of radicals and dissidents said, Trust us, there is another way or the Church is wrong. The Church speaks softly while those against it speak loudly. Do not be discouraged. “By their fruits you shall know them.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[yosupman]

But that is not what the Pope said All he said is that a person who does little to search for the truth cannot be considered invincibly ingorant, which is exactly right… And why is that so? Because invincible ignorance means ignorance through no fault of their own. If they have not taken sufficient measures to search for the truth, they are at fault. But nowhere does the Pope say that a person who hears the truth and rejects it can be considered invincibly ignorance.

The reason such a person is not invincibly ignorant is very obvious. Once a person hears the truth, they are no longer ignorant of it. They might reject it, but they are no ignorant of it. As soon as the truth is presented to the intellect the will chooses between accepting it as true, or rejecting it. As soon as teh truth is made known to them, they have a moral obligation to accept it. And the more often the truth is presented, and the more clearly it is presented, the greater their obligation to accept it.

lmost everyone (myself included) has family members who have died with no external manifestations of accepting the truth, but it is wrong to distort the teaching of the Church so as to make ourselves “feel” better. Instead, we should accept what the Church teaches and pray every day that God - who is outside of time and can apply our prayers to any point in time - will give our relative(s) the grace of conversion at the moment of their death. I do this almost every singe day for my grandfather in particular since he gave no external signs of converting prior to death.

So, I guess Hitler wasn’t guilty in God’s eyes for murdering all the people he did. After all, since his conscience had been blinded through repeated sin, he was “immune” from future guilt. I’m going to avoid addressing that point. My only comment is to say that such people are also not invincibly ignorant. That was what the Pope meant. Since they their conscience was virtually dead, they cannot be considered *invincibly ignorant *. Why? Because their their blindness is due to their own fault. As a consequence, they will be unable to hear (accept) the truth. Such people are on the broad road to perdition and if they die in that state they will be lost.

Sins against purity are said to be the most blinding of all sins. Given the amount of impurity in the world today (pornagraphy avaible to everyone who has a computer), it would seem that this probably why many if not most reject the truth and remain outside the Church.

We can only objectively say someone would in a state of mortal sin would goto hell. We cannot subjectively judge a particular soul, because only God can read the human heart. I believe that truth is found all over the pages of scripture. And I don’t have to quote 15 pages of a papal encyclical from 200 years ago.

 

[bbns2]

If you have faith and believe there is a suppreme being,then you have to believe in the teaching you think is infalab.le

 

[yosupman]

If you have faith and believe there is a suppreme being,then you have to believe in the teaching you think is infalab.le

Can I rephrase? I think you’re trying to say, if there is a supreme being, then that being must be all good, and perfect. The church as the guardian of the revealed word, could never teach error, or “lie” for God, because the Lord would in effect be lying. Therefore the church must be infallible in matters of faith and morals.

 

[JReducation]

We must always be like the holy mystics. They did not focus as much on these questions as they did on loving God. I always tell our novices that it’s important for them to learn their theology and philosophy. It’s important for them to read, but as our holy Father Francis told St. Anthony of Padua, one must make sure that none of this extinguishes the spirit of prayer.

My greatest admiration for many souls on these threads is their knowledge of documents, books, writings etc. My greatest fear is how much time do they spend on these things?

Some of these things are so ineresting, that one can become almost captivated by them, especially by some of these questions from theology, liturgy, canon law, philosophy, etc. They’re all fascinating. But let us remember the simplicity of Aquinas. He referred to all of it as , “straw”.

There is a beautiful story about Aquinas and Bonaventure. Both of them were professors at the University of Paris, at the same time. They were good friends, even though they disagreed on many things. Poor Bonaventure is less known by the average lay person. I feel sorry for him, because he has a lot to say.

Anyway, I digress. When Bonaventure was elected to be our Superior General, the friars ordered him to write the official biography of St. Francis. If you don’t know about Franciscans, here is you chance. The Superior General must always sumit to the authority of those he governs. That being said, Bonaventure, as good obedient man, sat down to the task. He found himself at Paris. The way that he went about this was that he would spend days in prayer to St. Francis. He would ask our Holy Father to tell him his life’s story. Then he would write. Then he would pray again and so forth.

One day, Aquinas came to discuss something with him. When he was led into the small chamber where Bonaventure lived, he found Bonaventure so deep in prayer that he could not get his attention. Aquinas knew that Bonaventure was working on this biography. The brother who led Aquinas to Bonaventure’s quarters asked Aquinas if he wanted him to bring Bonaventure back. Aquinas gave the most reasonable response. “Let the saint be with his saint. This can wait.”

The point was that even Aquinas knew of the importance of prayer over theology. Even though Aquinas and Bonaventure were mendicants, they had learned from the monks of Camaldoli that more souls are saved through prayer than through rhetoric. We too must remember that and cultivate a deep spiritual life of prayer, especially the Liturgy of the Hours, which is the crown that surrounds the Eucharistic Liturgy.

While we study the meaning of infallibility and how it works, let us remember to stop to pray. Infallibility is Jesus’ gift to the his Church. Prayer is the Church’s response to the gift giver. What good is it to know about the gift, if one finds little time to say , Thank You.

People like Francis, Mother Teresa, Therese of Liseux, Brother Andre, Solanus Casey, Padre Pio, and John Vianney could never master theology or debate against many posters on these threads. But they conquered heaven through prayer and charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[LittleSoldier]

Understand what the Church teaches and why. There is no such thing as a (fill in the blank) Catholic. There are no Catholic liberals or conservatives or traditionalists. There are only Catholics who know, understand and are obedient toward Church teaching.

Over the last 40 years, I have watched my fellow Catholics slowly, gradually be led astray. This did not happen overnight. Instead of standing firmly with the Church, a handful of radicals and dissidents said, Trust us, there is another way or the Church is wrong. The Church speaks softly while those against it speak loudly. Do not be discouraged. “By their fruits you shall know them.”

Peace,
Ed

Dear Ed,

I am sorry that you have seen fellow Catholics be led astray. That is always a terrible thing to witness and I think it will become even more prevalent until people realize that not everything found on a computer is correct. I have seen poorly written blogs used as references on CAF and I have seen several websites that leave me with the impression that Catholics who do not believe and accept the basic teachings of the Church can put pressure on the Church by their sheer numbers and force the Church to allow such things as contraception and abortion.

I am happy to say that after leaving the Church I returned rather recently and have found much joy and peace here. I consider my fellow Catholics my family.

When I was not a member of the Church I still searched for Truth and believe that I discovered it in many cases; for example I came to the conclusion that abortion is wrong based on my studies of science. In fact, since I returned to the Church I haven’t found one teaching that conflicts with what I had discovered while not a member. I am spending much of my time in prayer but I also am reading the CCC and books written by St. Augustine, St. Teresa of Avila, and Pope John Paul II (who has always been an inspiration to me). I plan to read the Bible (Douay-Rheims version because it is annotated) with my emphasis on the New Testament.

I’ve found that I unconsciously have become much less materialistic and much more interested in my faith.

My parish church is jammed during Mass. That is partly because we only have one Mass on Sunday because our only priest is also the only priest at another parish twenty miles away. But that’s not the whole reason. I have found a re-awakening of faith in many Catholics (or maybe it’s always been there but I didn’t see it before).

I believe that things will get better. I believe that if we trust in God and do our best there will always be a happy ending.

I will pray for those who are misled. It is sad to see that happen.

God bless you with peace and joy,
Christina

 

[LittleSoldier]

We must always be like the holy mystics. They did not focus as much on these questions as they did on loving God. I always tell our novices that it’s important for them to learn their theology and philosophy. It’s important for them to read, but as our holy Father Francis told St. Anthony of Padua, one must make sure that none of this extinguishes the spirit of prayer.

My greatest admiration for many souls on these threads is their knowledge of documents, books, writings etc. My greatest fear is how much time do they spend on these things?

Some of these things are so ineresting, that one can become almost captivated by them, especially by some of these questions from theology, liturgy, canon law, philosophy, etc. They’re all fascinating. But let us remember the simplicity of Aquinas. He referred to all of it as , “straw”.

There is a beautiful story about Aquinas and Bonaventure. Both of them were professors at the University of Paris, at the same time. They were good friends, even though they disagreed on many things. Poor Bonaventure is less known by the average lay person. I feel sorry for him, because he has a lot to say.

Anyway, I digress. When Bonaventure was elected to be our Superior General, the friars ordered him to write the official biography of St. Francis. If you don’t know about Franciscans, here is you chance. The Superior General must always sumit to the authority of those he governs. That being said, Bonaventure, as good obedient man, sat down to the task. He found himself at Paris. The way that he went about this was that he would spend days in prayer to St. Francis. He would ask our Holy Father to tell him his life’s story. Then he would write. Then he would pray again and so forth.

One day, Aquinas came to discuss something with him. When he was led into the small chamber where Bonaventure lived, he found Bonaventure so deep in prayer that he could not get his attention. Aquinas knew that Bonaventure was working on this biography. The brother who led Aquinas to Bonaventure’s quarters asked Aquinas if he wanted him to bring Bonaventure back. Aquinas gave the most reasonable response. “Let the saint be with his saint. This can wait.”

The point was that even Aquinas knew of the importance of prayer over theology. Even though Aquinas and Bonaventure were mendicants, they had learned from the monks of Camaldoli that more souls are saved through prayer than through rhetoric. We too must remember that and cultivate a deep spiritual life of prayer, especially the Liturgy of the Hours, which is the crown that surrounds the Eucharistic Liturgy.

While we study the meaning of infallibility and how it works, let us remember to stop to pray. Infallibility is Jesus’ gift to the his Church. Prayer is the Church’s response to the gift giver. What good is it to know about the gift, if one finds little time to say , Thank You.

People like Francis, Mother Teresa, Therese of Liseux, Brother Andre, Solanus Casey, Padre Pio, and John Vianney could never master theology or debate against many posters on these threads. But they conquered heaven through prayer and charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Praying and allowing God to enter our minds is so important. I didn’t recognize all the names you have listed in your last paragraph so I have some learning to do. Of course, I will always have learning to do, but prayer is more important to me because it doesn’t require a PhD in theology but simply a willingness and desire to be with God.

You have helped me a great deal!!

Thank you!!

 

[edwest2]

Dear Ed,

I am sorry that you have seen fellow Catholics be led astray. That is always a terrible thing to witness and I think it will become even more prevalent until people realize that not everything found on a computer is correct. I have seen poorly written blogs used as references on CAF and I have seen several websites that leave me with the impression that Catholics who do not believe and accept the basic teachings of the Church can put pressure on the Church by their sheer numbers and force the Church to allow such things as contraception and abortion.

I am happy to say that after leaving the Church I returned rather recently and have found much joy and peace here. I consider my fellow Catholics my family.

When I was not a member of the Church I still searched for Truth and believe that I discovered it in many cases; for example I came to the conclusion that abortion is wrong based on my studies of science. In fact, since I returned to the Church I haven’t found one teaching that conflicts with what I had discovered while not a member. I am spending much of my time in prayer but I also am reading the CCC and books written by St. Augustine, St. Teresa of Avila, and Pope John Paul II (who has always been an inspiration to me). I plan to read the Bible (Douay-Rheims version because it is annotated) with my emphasis on the New Testament.

I’ve found that I unconsciously have become much less materialistic and much more interested in my faith.

My parish church is jammed during Mass. That is partly because we only have one Mass on Sunday because our only priest is also the only priest at another parish twenty miles away. But that’s not the whole reason. I have found a re-awakening of faith in many Catholics (or maybe it’s always been there but I didn’t see it before).

I believe that things will get better. I believe that if we trust in God and do our best there will always be a happy ending.

I will pray for those who are misled. It is sad to see that happen.

God bless you with peace and joy,
Christina

Dear Christina,

Thank you for your response. May I say that sometimes things do happen to lead Catholics astray and sometimes, other Catholics ask, why? And do not get an answer.

I believe that things are getting better right now. The internet, like all human works, is used both for good and bad. I also spent a thankfully short time away from the Church. I had read other books about other faiths and other beliefs. It is unfortunate that science also has changed into something it is not, but that is another topic. And it is also sad to see some posts here trying to turn the Bible into part symbol and part ‘what actually happened.’

I recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church to know what we must believe.

Peace,
Ed

 

[LittleSoldier]

Dear Christina,

Thank you for your response. May I say that sometimes things do happen to lead Catholics astray and sometimes, other Catholics ask, why? And do not get an answer.

I believe that things are getting better right now. The internet, like all human works, is used both for good and bad. I also spent a thankfully short time away from the Church. I had read other books about other faiths and other beliefs. It is unfortunate that science also has changed into something it is not, but that is another topic. And it is also sad to see some posts here trying to turn the Bible into part symbol and part ‘what actually happened.’

I recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church to know what we must believe.

Peace,
Ed

Agreed!!

 

[JReducation]

Coming from a contemplative community, I would add to what Ed said, always read the CCC prayerfully. Pray before you read it and pray when you put it down. In between, be silent and let God speak. Always remember that behind every word in that book, there is a sublime reality that is waiting to reveal itself to those who listen silently. We have a custom in our community. The brothers are never allowed to begin studying without spending 30 minutes in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Without the silence, the openness to the voice of God, it’s just more information for the brain to remember. But with the silence it becomes a dialogue between the soul and the Divine.

I know that many posters here are family men and women, but one can always find at least five minutes of quiet and a quiet spot, even if it’s the bathroom, to listen.

My other advice to our novices, which I think may be helpful to the laity as well is this. “Always remember, you are a student, not a master. St. Francis always said that we must be the lowest. Therefore, never teach with authority, but alwasy teach with an apology on your lips. Ask your listener to forgive you for your own infidelity to your words. If you cannot do this, you have no place among the sons and daughters of St. Francis.” My point is this. Even though the laity is not bound by the rule and Franciscan tradition. We are all called to holiness. Therefore, when we teach, we must teach holiness, not cold facts. Every word that we find in scripture or the CCC must be spoken with great love for the speaker, God himself.

Let us never forget St. Paul’s message in 2Cor 13. "If I have not love . . . " I am always concerned about the way that some of us, including me, post on these threads. We forget to love the speaker and the listener. Christ is the speaker and the listeners are our brothers and sisters. As Mother Teresa said, “We are just a little pencil in God’s hand.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[thistle]

So are you saying that an adult who was baptized as a Catholic (before she was able to say “no”) and has that Catholic faith shoved down her throat against her will and is shown nothing but cruelty by the nuns in the school she is forced to attend and later on finds out that a priest to whom she confessed her sins was molesting two boys in her class and has a father (Catholic) who goes to Mass every Sunday and then spends the rest of the day screaming at his children, telling them how stupid they are, and a mother (Catholic) who does nothing to stop her husband but smacks her child across the face so many times that the child develops a jaw disorder and is in chronic pain for the rest of her life and she also whips that child with a plastic belt when the child is in First Grade - BUT, remember that child is baptized as a Catholic - if that person leaves the Church in order to find Truth and believes she has found it in the two Commandments of Christ and does her utmost best to be a good Christian, it does no good at all because she is a heretic and will be damned to hell??

I don’t believe you. I have looked it up in the CCC and what I have learned is that in order to choose hell (it is a choice - God does not damn us, we damn ourselves) one must be living without God in a state of mortal sin. In order for a sin to be mortal “three conditions must together be met: Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” (CCC 1857) (emphasis mine)

This means that in order for me to be damned to hell for being a heretic I would have to, first, be guilty of a grave sin (which I admit I was); second, I would have to know that I was committing a grave sin (I didn’t know); and third, I would have to give my full and deliberate consent to committing this grave sin (which I didn’t do as I didn’t know it was a sin at all).

I only meet the first criterion. I do not meet the second and third. Ergo, I did not commit a mortal sin and would never have been damned to hell by a loving God or even choose to go to hell as my desire was to be with God.

Making a blanket statement that heretics go to hell, is in itself rather heretical. Ask Father Feeny about it - he did something quite similar.

Doesn’t anyone actually pay attention to what I said instead of just reading the words.
My comments were relating to the Cafeteria Catholics which were mentioned. By definition a Cafeteria Catholic rejects a Church teaching, In other words they know what the teaching is but refuse to accept it.
They have therefore met all three criteria for a mortal sin.

A Cafeteria Catholic is a heretic and, if dying unrepentant, will go to Hell.

 

[JReducation]

What would happen if we inserted the word “objectively” into the above discussion? I think it may help. Objectively speaking a heretic would go to hell, because he or she is someone who has knowingly and freely chosen to ebrace error and embracing error is a serious sin.

However, there is another level here. That is the level of the subject. No one, not even the Church, knows the state of the soul of the subjecr at the moment of death. Therefore, we Catholics never say that this person or that person is in hell, not even Hitler, despite all the evil that he did. We say that people who do such evil will go to hell. But we do not say that Mr. X or Mrs Y are going to hell. We have no idea what the state of their soul is, how their conscience is working, or how God will intervene in their lives at the moment of death.

In the end, the most important thing is for every subject to observe the ojective truth, because there should enver be a disparity between the subject and the object. It’s like grammar in a sentence. If you take out the subject, you don’t have a sentence. In morality, if you take out the subject, the objective truth is as useful as a third shoe.

Fraernally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[LittleSoldier]

Doesn’t anyone actually pay attention to what I said instead of just reading the words.

Well, uh, the only way I know what you are saying is by reading the words. How else would I know?

My comments were relating to the Cafeteria Catholics which were mentioned. By definition a Cafeteria Catholic rejects a Church teaching, In other words they know what the teaching is but refuse to accept it.
They have therefore met all three criteria for a mortal sin.

A Cafeteria Catholic is a heretic and, if dying unrepentant, will go to Hell.

Not always. A cafeteria Catholic is a heretic - agreed. But being a heretic does not necessarily mean that one will go to hell. Being a heretic does not necessarily mean that one is in a state of mortal sin. Only a person who accepts what the Church teaches as true and still rejects Church teaching even though he/she believes it is a mortal sin to do so, will meet the three criteria for mortal sin. Simply knowing what the Church teaches is not enough. The person must know that what the Church teaches is true and still leave the Church in spite of that knowledge.

Again, those three criteria are that the matter must be grave, the person must know that it is a mortal sin, and the person must give full assent to committing the mortal sin. Not every heretic meets all criteria. I used myself as an example because I was a Catholic who picked and chose what I accepted - I was a cafeteria Catholic because, although I was Catholic, I went against Church teaching. I didn’t know the teachings were the truth. If I had why would I have left the Church? I didn’t even know I was a heretic!!

I think if you had defined “cafeteria Catholic” more carefully there wouldn’t have been a problem. As it was I spent a few hours crying and in a lot of emotional pain until I found out that I hadn’t committed a mortal sin. Going from what you stated I would have gone to hell when I was not a member of the Church. I take that very seriously. Well, anyone would. At least I hope they would. Fortunately for me I have a good Catholic friend who listens (and didn’t mind being called at a late hour) and a well-worn copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I’m not trying to start an argument or anything like that. I was absolutely terrified when I read what you had written and that is why I reacted as I did. As it is, I am glad (in a way) that you wrote what you did because it led me to a greater understanding of the Catholic Church and of a God who loves me.

 

[thistle]

Well, uh, the only way I know what you are saying is by reading the words. How else would I know?

Not always. A cafeteria Catholic is a heretic - agreed. But being a heretic does not necessarily mean that one will go to hell. Being a heretic does not necessarily mean that one is in a state of mortal sin. Only a person who accepts what the Church teaches as true and still rejects Church teaching even though he/she believes it is a mortal sin to do so, will meet the three criteria for mortal sin. Simply knowing what the Church teaches is not enough. The person must know that what the Church teaches is true and still leave the Church in spite of that knowledge.

Again, those three criteria are that the matter must be grave, the person must know that it is a mortal sin, and the person must give full assent to committing the mortal sin. Not every heretic meets all criteria. I used myself as an example because I was a Catholic who picked and chose what I accepted - I was a cafeteria Catholic because, although I was Catholic, I went against Church teaching. I didn’t know the teachings were the truth. If I had why would I have left the Church? I didn’t even know I was a heretic!!

I think if you had defined “cafeteria Catholic” more carefully there wouldn’t have been a problem. As it was I spent a few hours crying and in a lot of emotional pain until I found out that I hadn’t committed a mortal sin. Going from what you stated I would have gone to hell when I was not a member of the Church. I take that very seriously. Well, anyone would. At least I hope they would. Fortunately for me I have a good Catholic friend who listens (and didn’t mind being called at a late hour) and a well-worn copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I’m not trying to start an argument or anything like that. I was absolutely terrified when I read what you had written and that is why I reacted as I did. As it is, I am glad (in a way) that you wrote what you did because it led me to a greater understanding of the Catholic Church and of a God who loves me.

Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth as the Deposit of Faith was entrusted to it by Christ. All Church teachings in matters of faith and morals are true and must be accepted by all Catholics. A Catholic who knows the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter but doesn’t understand the teaching is not let off the hook because of their lack of understanding. If they know the Church teaches a specific thing is a sin of grave matter and they reject it (whether they fully understand it or not) that Catholic commits heresy and consequently is in a state of mortal sin.