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Originally Posted by Nicea325
**Name one of the 12 who was ALWAYS infallible? Did not Peter deny Jesus 3 times,yet he wrote two epistles? Are his epistles fallible since the church is made up fallible men? **
No. He was very fallible, as he demonstrated. However, his canonical writings are inerrant.
Thanks for proving my point. If he wrote an inerrant epistle it must have meant what? Peter was guided by the Holy Spirit,so apparently Jesus was correct the Holy Spirit would guide them (Church) into all truths. Jesus never said they would be infallible in ALL matters or aspects of their individual lives.
Could you please name any of “the twelve” who were ever infallible?
Easy,the ones who wrote epistles and all 12 since Jesus promised them the Holy Spirit. And when? When it implies to matters of faith and morals.
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In addition, Jesus left a church of sinners,not perfectionists and that in no shape or form negates Jesus promise that he gave the 12 the Holy Spirit and it is applicable when the Church defines and makes ALL doctrines official.
**The problem is that all born again believers have the Holy Spirit and yet, we can all still be wrong. **
Oh I see! So the doctrine of the Trinity and Incarnation are wrong,since ALL believers have the Holy Spirit and yet still be wrong? Pretty strong convictions there especially since we are dealing with people’s salvation.
The Apostles didn’t have any more of the Holy Spirit than we do today, nor does the promise of the Holy Spirit imply infallibility in the first place.
Oh really? Can you please provide the names of the laity,outside of the Apostles and bishops, who gave us the doctrines of the Trinity,Incarnation,canon of scripture,etc?
John 16:12-15
"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
It is the gift of God (Jesus) who is the possessor and the giver of all truth.
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Your argument is illogical.
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Interesting claim, since I haven’t even made my argument yet.**
Interesting rebuttal since you continue with the belief the church is full of fallible men,including the 12 minus their writings,sounds like an argument to me.*