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Big_Feet
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So if we have “Traditional” Catholics that would then mean that everyone else would need to be “UnTraditional” Catholics.QUOTE]
“UnTraditional Catholic” - Now even **I **am offended!!
snark
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TimothyH
Guest
And it takes some very normal behaviors and applies them exclusively to a subset of Catholics who call themselves traditionalists. Mary’s earlier quote is a perfect example.
No matter how much anyone would like to think so, following all the teachings of the church, praying the rosary or being a member of a rosary prayer group, home schooling, Bible study, not missing holy days and NFP are not behaviors exclusive only to those who prefer the Tridentine Mass.
-Tim-
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Big_Feet
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Can I 2nd that??
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Here’s a “traditional” view (offered ad infinitum):
From *Beatissimi Apostoloum, *the first encyclical of HH Pope Benedict XV issued in 1914.
“It is, moreover, Our will that Catholics should abstain from certain appellations which have recently been brought into use to distinguish one group of Catholics from another. They are to be avoided not only as “profane novelties of words,” out of harmony with both truth and justice, but also because they give rise to great trouble and confusion among Catholics. Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected: “This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly; he cannot be saved” (Athanas. Creed). There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim “Christian is my name and Catholic my surname,” only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself.” Emphasis mine.
From *Beatissimi Apostoloum, *the first encyclical of HH Pope Benedict XV issued in 1914.
“It is, moreover, Our will that Catholics should abstain from certain appellations which have recently been brought into use to distinguish one group of Catholics from another. They are to be avoided not only as “profane novelties of words,” out of harmony with both truth and justice, but also because they give rise to great trouble and confusion among Catholics. Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected: “This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly; he cannot be saved” (Athanas. Creed). There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim “Christian is my name and Catholic my surname,” only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself.” Emphasis mine.
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Vouthon
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I promised not to return to this thread but I’m going to have to break it to give you a HUGE
for that. I am in complete agreeance with Pope Benedict XV who I consider to have been one of the greatest and sadly most forgotten about Popes of the 20th century. I love his encyclical on Dante, the great Catholic poet and mystic.Sorry for joining in the thread again
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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But Tim, Mary is wrong.
She includes things that are not required of us to be Catholic. Home schooling, Baltimore Catechism, rosary group and prayer/bible study.
All the others do not make a “traditional” Catholic, they make a faithful Catholic.
The extras that she lists are just that, extra.
As for her last one, a traditional marriage, I am unsure what that is.
I find the inclusion of those things as defining a “traditional” Catholic highly problematic as they are private devotions (in the case of the rosary/prayer/bible study groups) or the instance of the Baltimore Catechism as if the Catechism of the Catholic Church is somehow “untraditional”.
This is why my belief that some of those who insist on using the self-identification of “traditional” are doing so out of some contempt for other Catholics and as a means of causing division within the Church.
The only identifiers that I think are appropriate for Catholics are those that denote membership within one of the 23 sur juris of the Catholic Church. Such as my use of Byzantine Ruthenian and your use of Roman.
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Moore11
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I would self identify as a Traditinalist. However not your traditional one.
I would prefer to attend the TLM but the only one near me is an SSPX Chapel which I will not attend until they are regularized due to obedience to my Bishop who has instructed the entire diocese not to go. The same Bishop has seen fit to offer the TLM once a month 5 hours away in the middle of nowhere rather than in the population circle of the diocese. While this is frustrating to me, The Bishop should be respected.
We go to a Mass that is full of protestant christian rock music, hand holding, EMHC committing all sorts of problems. and on and on. We receive on the tongue but that was started because babies were in our hands. We homeschool, but not in the Traditional way. I am a stay at home homeschooling dad. I would prefer the Latin Mass but I do not speak Latin. My wife does not cover her head, my kids can be a little restless at Mass. I am a convert and the only Catholic in my family.
So, you ask: How is it that I consider myself a Traditionalist?
I see things as I would like them to be and then as how they are. and sadly the two are not the same.
I wish it were easier to be a traditionalist but most are usually labels as grumpy old scowling people not young families like mine.
The biggest signature of a Traditionalist should be the tradition of obedience. Obedience to your Bishop, your rite, and your Pope. Sadly some forget this. But make no mistake, there are plenty of people like me just waiting for the Church to feed us. But we will wait for the proper way.
Pray for the unification of the SSPX and Rome. And pray for obedience!
I would prefer to attend the TLM but the only one near me is an SSPX Chapel which I will not attend until they are regularized due to obedience to my Bishop who has instructed the entire diocese not to go. The same Bishop has seen fit to offer the TLM once a month 5 hours away in the middle of nowhere rather than in the population circle of the diocese. While this is frustrating to me, The Bishop should be respected.
We go to a Mass that is full of protestant christian rock music, hand holding, EMHC committing all sorts of problems. and on and on. We receive on the tongue but that was started because babies were in our hands. We homeschool, but not in the Traditional way. I am a stay at home homeschooling dad. I would prefer the Latin Mass but I do not speak Latin. My wife does not cover her head, my kids can be a little restless at Mass. I am a convert and the only Catholic in my family.
So, you ask: How is it that I consider myself a Traditionalist?
I see things as I would like them to be and then as how they are. and sadly the two are not the same.
I wish it were easier to be a traditionalist but most are usually labels as grumpy old scowling people not young families like mine.
The biggest signature of a Traditionalist should be the tradition of obedience. Obedience to your Bishop, your rite, and your Pope. Sadly some forget this. But make no mistake, there are plenty of people like me just waiting for the Church to feed us. But we will wait for the proper way.
Pray for the unification of the SSPX and Rome. And pray for obedience!
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Diana_Catherine
Guest
Thank you.
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maryjk
Guest
I can’t be wrong, it is an opinion and what I see at my parish.
But what you say it true. All Roman Catholics are Roman Catholic. All should be following the teachings of the Church.
What they do while they follow the teachings doesn’t make them traditional or not. And we shouldn’t add divisions where there are none.
The problem comes when there is a division. Many times on the Traditional Forum I have seen people claim that the EF is a different rite from the OF rite. That there is a rite “Traditional Catholic.” And if there isn’t, there should be.
In fact, there was a thread on just that. I find that divisive.
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Diana_Catherine
Guest
True. My wording should have been traditions instead of teachings, for that is what I meant.
This is how it should be, yes.
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severus68
Guest
Thank you. I think what you say here is very true.
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severus68
Guest
I really do not think traditions made or make a saint. Rather, it would be a great love of God and a great willingness to do His Will.
BTW, striking the breast at mass and crossing yourself when passing a church are not what just traditionalists do. I have done that since I was old enough to understand and I attend the OF and am not a traditionalist.
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severus68
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Well said.
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loko
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Yes, he has an entire congregation that attends his ‘Catholic Church of the Holy Family’ which he funds and built and he has his own Priests.
You must fill out an application form before you can attend.
huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/mel-gibsons-church-inside_n_187904.html
zimbio.com/pictures/VZ68HbpdFj6/Mel+Gibson+Church+Holy+Family+Malibu
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wasserfall
Guest
That is very true. And frankly, all traditional Catholics know this, but the numbers of such people are relatively small compared to the numbers of nominal Catholics who don’t believe or follow all of the teachings of the Church and so, they are too often unjustly overlooked when the polemics begin.
I like to listen to sermons by SSPX priests on occasion and, while most of the time, they are just concerned with educating their listeners on matters of Catholic faith and morals, occasionally they will refer to that part of the Church outside of the SSPX world and, when they do so, they almost invariably note that there are indeed holy priests, holy religious and holy laymen in the “conciliar” Church.
There is, however a real doctrinal difference between traditional Catholics and what we might call “faithful Catholics (nontraditional)”. Nontraditional faithful Catholics might well be willing to accept all that the Church teaches, but their understanding of what the Church teaches is often different than the traditional Catholic understanding. Or at least, the traditional Catholic perceives that the nontraditional faithful Catholic has a different understanding of doctrine.
For example, I have heard very faithful and devout Catholics with more children than is typical for our society announce that they are “done”. That is, they intend to have no more children. And no doubt, they are planning to practice NFP in order to accomplish this goal. In the traditional Catholic understanding, such is morally objectionable and constitutes at the least a venial sin.
If you wish to get an idea of traditional Catholic approach to doctrine, here’s a few sermons, all by priests in good standing with the Catholic Church (probably FSSP):
On NFP:
audiosancto.org/sermon/20120212-The-Sanctity-of-Marriage-The-Duty-of-Motherhood-Versus-the-Abuses-of-NFP.html
On Dating:
audiosancto.org/sermon/20100425-What-Is-Permissable-For-Engaged-Couples.html
On Salvation:
audiosancto.org/sermon/20091115-Salvation-is-Only-in-the-Catholic-Church.html
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wasserfall
Guest
I would agree that someone who prefers the OF is not a traditional Catholic.
That is because part of being a traditional Catholic is the firm conviction that the EF is preferable to the OF, and that the preference is not a matter of aesthetics.
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clem456
Guest
Why do Catholics contradict Popes? Can anybody give an answer for that? Is there a virtue involved here that I am not aware of?
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wasserfall
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That is a very nice quote. In fact I like it a lot.
If we follow the request of the Pope in that quote, then any person who rejects any doctrine of the Catholic Church, no matter how small and inconsequential that doctrine seems, is simply not a Catholic at all.
I’m ok with that, but it would empty out our parishes in fairly short order…
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maryjk
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Interesting.
And good to know.
(And now, everyone, do you wonder why we have threads about who is considered a traditional Catholic almost every week??
)
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Indyann
Guest
Please give us an example of a small and inconsequential doctrine. Just for clarification. Thanks
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