What is a considered a Traditional Catholic

[wasserfall]

Please give us an example of a small and inconsequential doctrine. Just for clarification. Thanks

I assert that there are no inconsequential doctrines, but some people seem to think that there are inconsequential doctrines. For example, there are a large number of mass-going Catholics who use artificial birth control. These persons presumably do not accept the doctrine of the Catholic Church that such is a grave sin. (Alternatively they do accept the doctrine, but explicitly prefer hell to pregnancy).

According to Pope Benedict XV, as quoted above: Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected. So that anyone who does not accept the Catholic faith as a whole, rejects it as a whole, and consequently persons who reject the doctrine of the Church on artificial birth control actually reject the entire Catholic faith and so are not Catholics at all.

 

[Indyann]

“It is, moreover, Our will that Catholics should abstain from certain appellations which have recently been brought into use to distinguish one group of Catholics from another. They are to be avoided not only as “profane novelties of words,” out of harmony with both truth and justice, but also because they give rise to great trouble and confusion among Catholics. Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected: “This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly; he cannot be saved” (Athanas. Creed). There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim “Christian is my name and Catholic my surname,” only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself.”

I assert that there are no inconsequential doctrines, but some people seem to think that there are inconsequential doctrines. For example, there are a large number of mass-going Catholics who use artificial birth control. These persons presumably do not accept the doctrine of the Catholic Church that such is a grave sin. (Alternatively they do accept the doctrine, but explicitly prefer hell to pregnancy).

According to Pope Benedict XV, as quoted above: Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected. So that anyone who does not accept the Catholic faith as a whole, rejects it as a whole, and consequently persons who reject the doctrine of the Church on artificial birth control actually reject the entire Catholic faith and so are not Catholics at all.

So if a Pope says something you agree with, you must accept it. But should we not also accept that which he says that we do not agree with?

I am a “Traditional” Catholic who prefers the OF, as are probably about 97% of practicing Catholics.

 

[ImmaculataFides]

I am a “Traditional” Catholic who prefers the OF, as are probably about 97% of practicing Catholics.

That’s an oxymoron. Just saying.

:tiphat:

I.F.

 

[wasserfall]

So if a Pope says something you agree with, you must accept it. But should we not also accept that which he says that we do not agree with?

Pope Benedict XV was not teaching a doctrine in the above, he was expressing a wish and making a request. I agree with him completely that is would be preferable to avoid labeling Catholics.

However, as a matter of language, people have no choice but to use a label when wishing to make a distinction between two different things. If we accept that there is some discernable difference between (for example) typical SSPX chapelgoers and typical diocesan parishgoers, then we have to use a label or a name in order to make the distinction.

I am a “Traditional” Catholic who prefers the OF, as are probably about 97% of practicing Catholics.

It is not true that 97% of practicing Catholics are “traditional” Catholics.

I would guess that 97% of practicing Catholics are woefully ignorant of the Catholic faith and practice the faith only minimally. The regulars here at CAF are in the 3% who aren’t that way.

Lastly, in my opinion, if you prefer the OF, then you can be a good and faithful practicing Catholic, but not a traditional Catholic.

 

[Indyann]

That’s an oxymoron. Just saying.

:tiphat:

I.F.

Guess you don’t agree with Pope Benedict XV either.
Since “Traditionalist” is a made-up word self imposed by some Catholics, any Catholic who wants to describe themselves in that manner are free to do so.

 

[wasserfall]

Since “Traditionalist” is a made-up word self imposed by some Catholics, any Catholic who wants to describe themselves in that manner are free to do so.

Fair enough, but then don’t complain when traditional Catholics call you a novus ordo Catholic.

As you said, they are “free to do so.”

 

[Indyann]

Pope Benedict XV was not teaching a doctrine in the above, he was expressing a wish and making a request. I agree with him completely that is would be preferable to avoid labeling Catholics.

So why do so many Traditionalists ignore that request?

However, as a matter of language, people have no choice but to use a label when wishing to make a distinction between two different things. If we accept that there is some discernable difference between (for example) typical SSPX chapelgoers and typical diocesan parishgoers, then we have to use a label or a name in order to make the distinction.

There is already a label SSPX chapelgoers and diocesan parishgoers. Why add another?

It is not true that 97% of practicing Catholics are “traditional” Catholics.

I would guess that 97% of practicing Catholics are woefully ignorant of the Catholic faith and practice the faith only minimally. The regulars here at CAF are in the 3% who aren’t that way.

I should have phrased that as “faithful” practicing Catholics.If one is a faithful practicing Catholic, one must be “Traditional”

Lastly, in my opinion, if you prefer the OF, then you can be a good and faithful practicing Catholic, but not a traditional Catholic.

Yes, that is your opinion and you know what they say about that.

Your Novena praying, Rosary saying Procession walking,etc, etc. “Traditional” Catholic friend.

 

[ImmaculataFides]

Guess you don’t agree with Pope Benedict XV either.
Since “Traditionalist” is a made-up word self imposed by some Catholics, any Catholic who wants to describe themselves in that manner are free to do so.

Ok, well you continue calling yourself a ‘traditional Catholic’ if it indeed gives you some sort of gratification. Even though, of course, it makes no sense and simply promotes confusion.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Traditionalists know what they mean by ‘traditionalism’, ‘Tradition’, ‘traditionalists’ and ‘tradition’. So do liberal Catholics. They just don’t like the implications.

Since advertising has brought the gilded lie into our homes even Joe Blow now tries to make a case that a camel is really a kind of horse.

 

[Cat]

Wow.

I wonder what the OP thinks of all this.

Too bad we can’t use a different word than “traditional” Catholic, since that term seems to confuse people, as it obviously confused the OP. (She thought it referred to conservatism.)

Why not just “Latin Mass Catholic?” That’s what I call my friends who attend the Latin Mass–they themselves will say that other Catholics are “traditionalists” too, but some Catholics prefer the Latin Mass and some prefer the OF Mass.

IMO, the love of and hopefully faithfulness in attending the Latin Mass is what makes these Catholics “different” (in a good way) than the Catholics who do not prefer the Latin Mass or attend it.

Attendance at Latin Mass instead of OF Mass usually means a lot of other traits–e.g., my friends generally are more likely to wear dresses (the women and girls, that is!), and when they wear more casual clothes, they are always modest. The women cover their heads at Mass. They are committed to family life and often, but not always, have more than two children. They try to stick with a schedule of prayers each day. In our city, many of these Catholics send their children to the independent (not associated with a parish) school, in which the children are taught Latin and attend the Latin Mass during the week.

Interestingly, the friends that I have in my OF parish have a lot of these same traits, although many of the women do wear slacks to Mass and don’t cover their heads. But some do. And I know a lot of families at my OF parish that have eight or more children and are still working on their families! (And of course, the moms are thin and beautiful–how can this be?!! I’m so jealous!)

And I know lots and lots of OF Mass devotees who are faithful about their daily prayers, who go to Adoration almost every day, or at least weekly, who are regulars at the Sacrament of Reconciliation, etc.

And what I think is really fascinating is that the children of many of the Latin Mass Catholics that I know are actually quite normal! They watch regular television shows, many of which I would not allow a child to watch. They listen to secular rock music . They wear jeans (the girls, too). They read teen vampire novels.

But yet, they are very devoted to Jesus, Mary, and the Church.

So my conclusion is, it’s best not to have stereotypes of Catholics. People are surprising! Just because someone attends the Latin Mass regularly does not mean that they have a certain personality “type” or traits. Same for people who attend the OF Mass regularly. Best not to pre-judge anyone.

 

[TrueLight]

Why not call them Latin Mass Catholics? Because it is much more than attendance at a Latin Mass. I really do think that the article linked to before is the most accurate in my experience. Not to say all traditionalists share those same traits, but they share a lot of them.

fisheaters.com/ontraditionalcatholics.html

I don’t know if I saw this in the article or somewhere else, but not everyone who attends the Latin mass is a traditionalist.

I personally feel that traditionalists are a subset of traditional Catholics.

 

[bevsue]

Good Grief you guys (and gals!) I posted way back on page two, and muddled my way through pages of this stuff, and now as someone who was a cradle Catholic - a term someone will no doubt not like - and now has returned to the church as a revert - another term someone will object to, no doubt, I am more confused about things than ever. Poor Jillian - I hope she can follow all this! WHO coined the terms being used here? Is traditionalist - traditional etc. terminology used by the Church officially to describe these groups of people or have some people named themselves that without giving the rest of us poor folk the appropriate dictionary? Secondly, some of us who might want to follow this don’t know all the acronyms some of you folks throw around like softballs. Are we trying to communicate and understand here or just score points? Maybe you should start another thread for arguing fine points of disagreement. This thread started out as a question by a young lady trying to grow in her faith and connect with others in her church who love the Lord and Catholicism.

For the record I returned to the Church a solid believer in Church history and teachings. I think I get SOME of the discussion here, but I feel like some of this gets WAAAAY too intense - and isn’t loving Jesus and His Church, following the Church teachings and striving to obey Him and the Church and live a holy life the bottom line for ALL of us anyway?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I can’t be wrong, it is an opinion and what I see at my parish.

An opinion can surely be wrong.

But if it is your opinion that opinions can not be wrong then how would we deal with it being my opinion that your opinion is wrong. Now there is a logical conundrum for ya!

This is one for the geek within many of us. In the Star Trek episode “I, Mudd” where Capt. Kirk tells the android that everything Harry Mudd tells him is a lie and then Mudd says, “I am lying.” Leading the android to say " You say you are lying, but if everything you say is a lie, then you are telling the truth, but you cannot tell the truth because everything you say is a lie, but you lie… You tell the truth but you cannot for you lie… illogical! Illogical! Please explain! You are human. Only humans can explain their behavior! Please explain! "

Lovely! I just love releasing my inner geek!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Wow.

I wonder what the OP thinks of all this.

Too bad we can’t use a different word than “traditional” Catholic, since that term seems to confuse people, as it obviously confused the OP. (She thought it referred to conservatism.)

There is a better term. Its called Catholic. Why must we use labels?

Conservative and liberal are political terms, not religious. One can be liberal in some points and still be a faithful Catholic. Actually one could argue that one must be liberal in certain political views (and conservative in others) to be a faithful Catholic.

Why not just "Latin Mass Catholic?

Why not? Because this designation is meaningless. The Mass in both the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form is celebrated in Latin. Saying Latin Mass does not differentiate between either the Ordinary or the Extraordinary Form. Now the Extraordinary Form is only celebrated in Latin but that does not change that the Ordinary Form is also celebrated in Latin as well as the various languages of the people.

 

[TrueLight]

One thing I wanted to add about traditionalists. Traditionalists tend to have very strong Marian devotions and also tend to accept most private revelations (that are accepted by the Church).

So you’ll hear someone said, “Our Lady of Fatima said this”, or “That is why our Lady said at Lourdes…”. You will often hear about the consecration of Russia.

CAF is the only place I have heard comments like we are free to believe these things, but they are not mandatory. But then again I do not interact that much with practicing Catholics who are not traditionalists.

So that’s my experience.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

CAF is the only place I have heard comments like we are free to believe these things, but they are not mandatory. But then again I do not interact that much with practicing Catholics who are not traditionalists.

So that’s my experience.

So I guess you have never read the Catechism.

 

[TrueLight]

So I guess you have never read the Catechism.

Let me clarify.

As much as online interaction can be seen as interaction with people, this is the only place I have heard (technically read) Catholics say this, given my limited interaction.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

There is a better term. Its called Catholic. Why must we use labels?.

True. Maybe it would be better to say a Catholic who attends Mass and then maybe say which one you attend.

Why not? Because this designation is meaningless. The Mass in both the Ordinary Form and the ExtraoRdinary Form is celebrated in Latin. Saying Latin Mass does not differentiate between either the Ordinary or the Extraordinary Form. Now the Extraordinary Form is only celebrated in Latin but that does not change that the Ordinary Form is also celebrated in Latin as well as the various languages of the people.

One thing I wanted to add about traditionalists. Traditionalists tend to have very strong Marian devotions and also tend to accept most private revelations (that are accepted by the Church).

So you’ll hear someone said, “Our Lady of Fatima said this”, or “That is why our Lady said at Lourdes…”. You will often hear about the consecration of Russia.
.

I do think that both have strong Marian devotions but I agree it seems as though, Catholics who consider themselves traditinals are more devoted to Fatima. It seems when I mention Fatima on the trad thread it goes over okay but if I mention it somewhere else people tend to get upset, not always but sometimes.

 

[Cat]

One thing I wanted to add about traditionalists. Traditionalists tend to have very strong Marian devotions and also tend to accept most private revelations (that are accepted by the Church).

So you’ll hear someone said, “Our Lady of Fatima said this”, or “That is why our Lady said at Lourdes…”. You will often hear about the consecration of Russia.

CAF is the only place I have heard comments like we are free to believe these things, but they are not mandatory. But then again I do not interact that much with practicing Catholics who are not traditionalists.

So that’s my experience.

I wish you lived near me, because you would enjoy interacting with the practicing Catholics who are NOT traditionalists in my parish. You would see that many of them are quite faithful in their devotion to Mary, and have such an enthusiastic love for her that it is contagious! The Legion of Mary is strong in our parish. We just finished celebrating the Month of May, Mary’s month, and did several ceremonies to honor the Blessed Mother, including a May Crowning.

My daughter is a Catholic who does not consider herself a tradtionalist. She is also a convert, and her devotion to Mary is fervent.

As for Fatima, our parish has often presented various Fatima exhibits, and quite a crowd of Catholics from the parish show up. My husband and I have a stained glass of Fatima (the three children and the Blessed Mother) in our home. In our Apologetics Class, we learned all about Fatima.

None of these devotions are “required” for Catholics. They are merely part of the treasury that is available to all of us. That’s not what the “non-traditionalists” say. It’s what is taught by the Church.

 

[Cat]

Why not call them Latin Mass Catholics? Because it is much more than attendance at a Latin Mass. I really do think that the article linked to before is the most accurate in my experience. Not to say all traditionalists share those same traits, but they share a lot of them.

fisheaters.com/ontraditionalcatholics.html

I don’t know if I saw this in the article or somewhere else, but not everyone who attends the Latin mass is a traditionalist.

I personally feel that traditionalists are a subset of traditional Catholics.

After reading through this article (I’ve seen it before), I think that it describes many fundmentalist Protestants.

There are quite a few things in the assessment that are just plain wrong. I know many many Catholics who attend the OF Mass who do all of the things that the author says that traditionalists do; e.g., study, read, pray, confess, etc. And I also know many many fundamentalist Protestants who do many of the things (non-religious) on that list.

And frankly, I can’t believe that someone would ascribe an unhealthy indulgence in smoking to religious motivations. Does everyone realize that pipe smokers can contract various forms of mouth cancer and occasionally have to have portions of the mouth, jaw, and sometimes their tongue removed surgically?

I think that ByzCath is largely in the right. Tear down these walls.