What is a pagan??

[DorianGregorian]

A pagan in the broadest sense would be anybody who is not Jewish or Christian.

In the most specific sense it would be a pre-Christian western European who had a polytheistic belief system.

 

[planten]

Another typo I mixed up the various Sura’s again. However heres the point clearly spelled out.​

If you actually read back then perhaps you’d find the contradiction as i originally put it out.

Here it is again anyway.​

In 4:78 it says “ALL things are from Allah” which clearly means evil as well because evil is a part of ALL things. But merely one verse later in 4:79 we find “Whatever good, (O man!)happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from yourself.”

Now here we have the first contradiction, 4:79 says that all things good that happen to oneself come from Allah, but anything evil that happens to oneself is caused from yourself. Yet apparently all things are from Allah in 4:78.

Interestingly in my recent ponderings of Islam i found that merely three verses later it says such contradictions are a sign something is not from God. But back to the point

Later in 38:41 it says. Commemorate Our Servant Job, behold he cried out to his Lord: “Satan has afflicted me with distress and suffering!”

Lo and behold we now a third party in the competition to see who causes evil, Now here it is clearly stating that Satan is afflicting Job with evil and he’s asking Allah to help. So now we have a trifecta of personages responsible for evil. Allah which 4:78 clearly says is the cause of ALL things. Yourself in which 4:79 says Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself. . And then we have 38:41 in which clearly it says Satan is causing the calamity to befall Job.​

And so now we have the great contradiction of the originator of Evil. Satan, Oneself or Allah. Now 4:79 clearly differentiates Allah as the cause of Good while oneself as the cause of Evil which clearly contradicts the verse 4:78 which says Allah is the cause of ALL things. And then we have Satan causing Evil later.

This is clearly contradictory, not to mention other ones ive mentioned and more besides. Lion_of_Islam has ignored the question, for reasons i’ve believed ive already stated. Now lets see how you explain this clear and obvious violation of the immutability of the Quran.

I have understood your question. It is valid question. Please leave the problem of Job (verse 38:41) alone. For the time being, please consider the two verses of chapter 4 only which are disturbing you, i.e. 4:78 and 4:79.

In 4:78 “ALL things are from Allah”
In 4:79 “Whatever good, (O man!)happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from yourself.”

You can clearly see that this involves the matter of free will and destiny. I cannot answer or solve this riddle and it is not allowed to discuss this problem. Destiny ( Taqdeer) is a difficult subject. It goes into querrels and disputes. The Quran has given the best solution. And there is no contradiction.

I hope you also and your church also has no answer to the riddle of destiny. What do you say about it, please?? If you can solve the question of destiny then let me know the answer. Let me know about things that happen are from God or from the persons own will / deeds. let me know.

I will reply to you soon. Also I will easily answer the problem you feel about verse 38:41. Let us get along in a good way.

If you have not understood my this reply then let me know. I will explain it again. Welcome.

 

[KathleenGee]

No, incorrect, about Non Jews and Christians being pagan.

Islam is part of the Abrahamic religions and has aspects of it reflecting universal religion and showing benevolence to all people.

Buddhism, Hinduism have aspects of true religion. Confucious himself defined the commandments except that pertaining to God…as the full revelation of God would come from the Jewish people.

Pagan is perversion towards God, man, and nature.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Zoroastrianism is not considered pagan–usually recognized a a “religion of the book” by muslims

Sikh Dharma is monotheistic and not considered pagan–except historically by many muslim mullahs and leaders–which is why the Khalsa warrior tradition developed

 

[DorianGregorian]

No, incorrect, about Non Jews and Christians being pagan.

Islam is part of the Abrahamic religions and has aspects of it reflecting universal religion and showing benevolence to all people.

Buddhism, Hinduism have aspects of true religion. Confucious himself defined the commandments except that pertaining to God…as the full revelation of God would come from the Jewish people.

Pagan is perversion towards God, man, and nature.

Really?

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne ex-Cathedra “It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all… They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”

Thomas Aquinas: "If anyone were to worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”

St. Francis: “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us.”

Not my words friend, the words of the Saints and the One true Catholic Faith.

 

[Jehoshua]

Ah, but Planten you are simply avoiding the question, and the most particular contradiction between the first two sura’s and the one about Job.

By trying to redirect the question onto the Catholic churches view you are doing exactly what Lion_of_Islam did and you are again showing that most muslims simply avoid difficult questions and can;t engage in proper dialogue.

Notably you also said in a more polite way the Lion_of_Islam effectively the same contradctory statement many muslims make. The Quran says its uncontradictory, therefore it has no contradictions. Reality check, just because you say there are no contradictions doesn;t make it so, get back to the point and actually answer my question instead of avoiding it.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

No, incorrect, about Non Jews and Christians being pagan.

Islam is part of the Abrahamic religions and has aspects of it reflecting universal religion and showing benevolence to all people.

Buddhism, Hinduism have aspects of true religion. Confucious himself defined the commandments except that pertaining to God…as the full revelation of God would come from the Jewish people.

Pagan is perversion towards God, man, and nature.

Where do you get that information from? How is it a perversion of nature? As a pagan myself, what makes my beliefs any less valid than the ones you’ve mentioned? Not trying to attack you, those are legitimate questions.

 

[KathleenGee]

I get that from the Universal Catechism…a perversion is just that…making something out to be what it is not.

People have to make sure to make the distinction of what it means to be a human being vs that which is pagan that distorts the intent of the Creator and that of His creation.

 

[KathleenGee]

I did hospice for a pagan. She was an artist. Her hospital bed was in her dining room. She had a large statue next to her…a human body with a lion head…think she sculpted it. She had a picture of a bagwhan with his hands outstretched and his hair completely frizzed out. She had a Shinto ‘idol’, her term, and then she had a tiny statue of Our Lady of Guadulupe.

She was one of these dying who would try to jump and run away out of their beds. Some who are completely immobile and grossly overweight begin to thrash back and forth. One I met was frothing at the mouth.

Anyway, I saw her at night. Her boyfriend was always by her. I saw her have nightmares. She would wake up telling me how the devil was taking her and putting her in a jail…she was so afraid, a bad man coming to the world to kill alot of people…One night she suddenly said to her boyfriend that Jesus was in the room and to get Him out of there.

I went to the bathroom that night and in there saw a sculpture she made of an infant’s head with darkness around its eyes, and incense burners stuck like needles into the top of its skull. I was so creeped out. I came back and the boyfriend was finally resting. She told me more of her fears. I asked her if she knew of the roses in December.

She said no. I told her the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe, how the bishop asked for roses as a sign from heaven that some day there would be peace and unity among the Spaniards and the native Mexican people. Juan Diego, a peasant was walking home one evening, and there at the Aztec shrine of the goddess of peace, he saw this woman. She spoke to him but she frightened him. He took another path the next evening. This time she came there. She said she had roses for the bishop and to pick them for him. He did and then brought them to the bishop and when he opened his cape, not only did the roses come out but the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe who used the language of pictographs, and it had so much meaning to the people who then saw it.

the lady told me she lived a bad life. I then shared with her the great work of Mary…first she is our mother, and then she has the ability and power to reform and mold us as a mother and place us before the King, Jesus, and take away our fear He would reject us because of our past. Mary gives us confidence to face God.

I asked her if she would like to have Mary as her mother and she said yes. So I prayed a simple Hail Mary with her. Then I told her people say alot of lies about Jesus. That He is all love and mercy no matter what. I asked if she would be open to Him and she said Yes. So we prayed an Our Father. Then I told her I would pray the prayer of the dying, ‘Divine Mercy’. and did so. She was covered with so much peace her countenance changed and I saw it transform with the sun rising at dawn outside. I told her that if Mary were here, she would say something to her and it would be: ‘That Jesus is waiting for her’. The woman’s final words to me was that she was in so much peace now, her only fear would be that this peace would leave her.

So I went home and then throughout my waking hours, I prayed the Divine Mercy for her and her peace. I came to the house that night. The boyfriend’s mother answered the door. She told me the woman had died in her son’s arms. I stepped in. The mother told me she picked up the Shinto goddess and then put her down. She then reached over to Mary of Guadalupe. She then told her mother, ‘Marty told me there was someone special waiting for me…’ ‘who is it,’ said the mother…‘Is it Jesus?’ and then the woman said, ‘Yes’.

Yes is the means the enfleshed God, Jesus, came into the world.

 

[kenofken]

…“Pagan is perversion towards God, man, and nature.”

If we’re going to go down that road, we ought to remember the old adage about stones and glass houses. Which religion is is that for five decades not only tolerated but actively enabled a culture of child rape at the highest levels of leadership on at least four continents? Here’s a hint - it’s not paganism. Which faith has shed enough blood over the past 15 centuries to fill the Amazon river basin? (see answer to part A).

And let’s not forget that other pillar of Abrahamic religion, Islam. There’s the fine little tradition of “sigheh,” by which a man can arrange a temporary “marriage” with a girl as young as nine. And the “honor killings” of one’s own daugher or sister for the slightest suspicion of immodesty, even if she was the victim of an assualt. And oh yeah, the suicide bombing thing. But at least Christians and Muslims aren’t “perverts” like we pagans.

 

[KathleenGee]

What part of our society, let us bring it home, has the highest sexual abuse, 100% higher than the 5% clergy in our country? It is your public schools…check out USA Today, October 2007, and you will find the front page with all its regions and graphs regarding our country’s sex abuse…the Catholic clergy had the lowest numbers…it is your media that spins the spin and covers up its own crimes.

You might try the actual documents of the Inquisition, 2003, free for your investigation…where the clerics exonerated and cleared most defendents…in a country that was plundered and raped by the Moors for 700 years…we know that many times the abused becomes like the abuser…

In the history of mankind, the greatest destruction to human life was that brought about by secular, imperialist powers, far more than religion.

You forgot about the millions and millions of people slaughtered by communitarian, socialist communism…54 million by Mao Tse Tung alone. But then if it is a secular, then it is OK, right?

Or pushing homosexuality on kindergarten children? It is happening now in our country by your people.

Or how about the KGB and their smear campaign over the past century or so…???

Your stats are perverted. Grow up.

 

[AnAtheist]

There is also neo-paganism, which is basically an attempt by various groups to eliminate any Christian influence from their belief system and go back to the beliefs of those pre-Christian religions. Not that the people are going around worshiping Zeus or anything.

Yes, they are.

 

[NoWings]

In the history of mankind, the greatest destruction to human life was that brought about by secular, imperialist powers, far more than religion.

You forgot about the millions and millions of people slaughtered by communitarian, socialist communism…54 million by Mao Tse Tung alone. But then if it is a secular, then it is OK, right?

What does secularism have to do with this thread? Paganism does not equal secularism.

 

[KathleenGee]

I used secularism because that was the term many assumed to use who did not believe in God…they made a willful desire to deny God and used the same diatribe this person used…I heard the same references over and over…

And they always brought up racism, the Inquisition --exposed by two Americans in the 1800’s from the Stone/Campbell movement who wrote on the Inquisition, and pedophilia while ignoring the massive sex abuse going on in American public schools. And all the abuse and corruption that is going on in our own government with its massive misappropriation of taxpayer dollars…this is perversion.

Also deviancy is always around 3% in any human institution, no matter how hard it tries to prevent such behaviors…but we also had people coming into the priesthood with poor discernment as well. I read now the numbers are at 5%.

These people were formed to hold such convictions. And they know little of anything good of the Catholic Church or Christianity because they listen to the same spin.

 

[NoWings]

I used secularism because that was the term many assumed to use who did not believe in God…they made a willful desire to deny God and used the same diatribe this person used…I heard the same references over and over…

Their information may indeed be skewed or incorrect, but equating (neo) paganism and secularism just doesn’t work. It would be easier to equate Christianity with Islam.

 

[KathleenGee]

May be not…how would you describe them…agnostics? I don’t think these particular people were agnostic as anti-religious…some were raised in extreme fundamentalist sects and were very damaged…others were rationalists…but where they went off was denying free speech or rather, freedom of religious expression guaranteed in our Constitution to fundamentalist, as well as holding on to the regular perceptions or biases of anti-Christian or anti-Catholic people…they were not open to more balanced understanding, more reactionary…closed minded to (name removed by moderator)ut we were trying to impart to them…and they were also not understanding that Terry Schiavo’s bill of rights were terribly violated being in a Hemlock associated hospice.

I know agnostics that don’t have that hostility and narrow mindedness…so anything with an unbalanced bias, especially those today indoctrinated by the far left their entire educational lives…I would say being under that umbrella is not how should I say, well founded…

I did come across harsh, K… Sorry!

 

[cyberwolf001]

I am just jumping in after reading the OP so please understand that.

Normally when Pagan is used now it means a follower of the Pre-Christian Gods of Europe. In it’s larger since it can also include Shinto, Hinduism and other indeginous religions.

Dispite what some Catholic apologist say yes we do worship gods like Zeus, Odin ect. Actually worship. For my part I give offerings of incense and oil ALMOST daily when able.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

I get that from the Universal Catechism…a perversion is just that…making something out to be what it is not.

People have to make sure to make the distinction of what it means to be a human being vs that which is pagan that distorts the intent of the Creator and that of His creation.

As a pagan of a different denomination than most, I don’t necessarily worship nature. I worship Chaos. Nature does fall into that, because it is Chaotic neutral, but nature isn’t all I worship. I can technically worship anything I chose, because of the tenants of my chosen path.

*Edit: Also forgot to mention, I am not anti-Catholic or anti-Christian. My mother is a Catholic, and that’s how I was raised. I left the church for my own reasons, but I do respect the beliefs of others.

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah, what is that? You worship “chaos”? Have you been watching Jeff Goldblum’s character in “Jurassic Park” a little too closely?

 

[KathleenGee]

That is a pretty scary picture…

Another thing came to me as pagan…those people creating strange forms of life…looks like somebody beat me to it…