What is a pagan??

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All im saying is that parts of Quran are refuted by saying its not in arabic on this forum because non-muslims point out these parts as contradictory or fallacial. And i never said there were shameful parts, if you read my post.
On two a small selection of such sections there are

A part i recall is the fallacy where one part clearly states there are six days of creation, but a later section says their are eight. That is a clear violation of logic.

Or this: First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].

Or is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Us [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
I’ve clearly gone to find the proper verses so you can check it in regards to the latter two but are these not clear violations of consistency in the Quran, I think so.
 
Jehoshua said:
All im saying is that parts of Quran are refuted by saying its not in arabic on this forum because non-muslims point out these parts as contradictory or fallacial. And i never said there were shameful parts, if you read my post.
On two a small selection of such sections there are

A part i recall is the fallacy where one part clearly states there are six days of creation, but a later section says their are eight. That is a clear violation of logic.

Or this: First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].

Or is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Us [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
I’ve clearly gone to find the proper verses so you can check it in regards to the latter two but are these not clear violations of consistency in the Quran, I think so.
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Holy Qur’an 2:29:
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Holy Qur’an 079.027-30

079.027
YUSUFALI: What! Are ye the more difficult to create or the heaven (above)? (Allah) hath constructed it:

079.028
YUSUFALI: On high hath He raised its canopy, and He hath given it order and perfection.

079.029
YUSUFALI: Its night doth He endow with darkness, and its splendour doth He bring out (with light).

079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

038.041
YUSUFALI: Commemorate Our Servant Job. Behold he cried to his Lord: “The Evil One has afflicted me with distress and suffering!”

004.079
YUSUFALI: Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as a messenger to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness.

004.078
YUSUFALI: “Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!” If some good befalls them, they say, “This is from Allah”; but if evil, they say, “This is from thee” (O Prophet). Say: “All things are from Allah.” But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

These are all the verses you have quoted… From what I can see, what you have stated has NO relationship to any of the verses mentioned… There is nothing that says created in 6 days… There is NO contradiction in the Qur’an… It has been perfected because it is the word of God…
 
My response
It seems fairly contradictory to me. To focus on one contradicition using the key phrases

38:41 “The Evil One has afflicted me with distress and suffering!”
4:79 but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul
4:78 “All things are from Allah.”

Would it not seem that the Quran is being contradictory here?
Some verses i think should elaborate the point

In regards to the days of creation 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 I believe mention six days and 41:9-12 show eight
As to the part regarding earth then heaven does it not if you read it in sequence appear to suggest that in 79:27-30 heaven was created before Earth but in the other section it appeaqrs to suggest the opposite. Perhaps you reading (way you interpret) is different to mine, but id put everything in sequential order of creation.
 
Now im going to elaborate on the first of my responses. So that were not discussing the three sections all together.
Firstly in 4:78 it says “All things are from Allah.” now that naturally includes evil which is part of the ALL THINGS, but then in 4:79 it says that whatever evil that happens to you comes from yourself while saying good comes from Allah, but 4:78 clearly says that all things come from Allah, including evil. But then comes along 38:41 which says that Satan inflicted Job with evil, but 4:78 says that whatever evil happens to yourself comes from your own soul and thats not regarding Allah claiming dominion over all things in 4:78.

Clearly there is now confusion over whether evil is part of Allah’s dominion over all things and comes from him, or whether whatever evil happens to you is from your own soul or whether Satan brings evil. Its clearly contradictory.
You brought this up i might add, i was merely stating that area’s such as these that appear contradictory, fallacial and therefore embarrasing to Islam are covered up in arabic. As a note at the bototm of why muslims say arabic is important in understanding the Quran.
 
A_Lion_Of_Islam said:
A pagan is anyone who worships anything else but the Creator… So you can call it worshippers of the creation… Mushrik in arabic…

so if someone involves worshipping anything else but the one TRUE creator, then the at person is said to be involved in Paganism…

The creation can be nature, human being, rocks, sun/ moon etc…

Allah knows best!
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I may add my views with a slight difference, because your formation of English sentences did not allow me to agree to you. Otherwise the above description was good.

By Islamic standards, a pagan is ploytheist (A Mushrik). He/she may be a fire worshipper or idol worshippr or Sun worshipper… He/she worships other bodies beside God (Allah). He/she may not deny Allah. But he/she associates others with God.

Islam and I feel the teachings of Moses, Jesus and all prophets of old, all of them had forbidden the worship of other bodies or symbols. That was Islam.

Any one who worships nature or idols (as described above) even though he/she believes in the One God, is a pagan.
 
Jehoshua said:
Now im going to elaborate on the first of my responses. So that were not discussing the three sections all together.
Firstly in 4:78 it says “All things are from Allah.” now that naturally includes evil which is part of the ALL THINGS, but then in 4:79 it says that whatever evil that happens to you comes from yourself while saying good comes from Allah, but 4:78 clearly says that all things come from Allah, including evil. But then comes along 38:41 which says that Satan inflicted Job with evil, but 4:78 says that whatever evil happens to yourself comes from your own soul and thats not regarding Allah claiming dominion over all things in 4:78.

And mention also Our servant Job, when he called out to his Lord, [saying], ‘Lo! Satan has afflicted me with hardship, harm, and suffering’, pain: he attributes all this to Satan, even though all things are from God, to show reverence [in his call] to Him, exalted be He. (38:41)

Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, though you should be in raised-up, lofty, towers’, forts, so do not shrink from fighting for fear of death. And if a good thing, such as fertility and abundance, befalls them, the Jews, they say, ‘This is from God’; but if an evil thing, such as drought or misfortune, befalls them, as it did with them when the Prophet (s) arrived in Medina, they say, ‘This is from you’, O Muhammad (s), that is, from the bad luck [you bring]. Say, to them: ‘Everything, good and evil, is from God.’ What is wrong with this people that they do not understand, that is, they do not come close to comprehending, any words, delivered to them (the mā, ‘what’ [of mā li-hā’ūlā’, ‘what is wrong with these’] is an interrogative intended to provoke amazement at their extreme ignorance; to state that one cannot even come close to doing something is [rhetorically] more intense than saying that he cannot do it). (4:78)

Clearly there is now confusion over whether evil is part of Allah’s dominion over all things and comes from him, or whether whatever evil happens to you is from your own soul or whether Satan brings evil. Its clearly contradictory.

No confusion here… as Job was only expressing his servitude to Allah that even though good and evil is from Allah, he is showing his reverene towards him​

You brought this up i might add, i was merely stating that area’s such as these that appear contradictory, fallacial and therefore embarrasing to Islam are covered up in arabic. As a note at the bototm of why muslims say arabic is important in understanding the Quran.

Your claims have been refuted… Qur’an does not have ANY contradictory verses…
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Peace!
 
Just to make it clear the third 4:78 is a typo and is meant to be 4:79
Now for the reply

Your reply dos nothing to prove the uncontradictability of the Quran. 4:78 clearly has Job say Commemorate Our Servant Job. Behold he cried to his Lord: “The Evil One has afflicted me with distress and suffering!” . You say this is merely him honouring God. This does not compute with me considering its clearly an exclamation for help from Job against satan, and considering the context has nothing of the sort to proove your claim.

Besides this your statement the “ma”, changes nothing of the meaning of “All things come from God” and is totally irrelevant. And besides this you ignored 4:79 which just one Sura after 4:78 contradicts it by saying ALL evil that befalls oneself comes from ones own soul. Now then if this is true Job caused the evil upon himself not God.

ou have done nothing to refute my claims. Simply stating that im wrong doesn;t make it so. You need to clearly and concisely proove the incontradictability of the Quran in a logical argument, this you havent done, you have merely rambled on abo some sura,s and added some commentary. Which has doe nothing to advance your point.
 
jakasaki said:
Again this is a classic case of islam NOT being the worlds religion and the koran NOT being the worlds holy book unless you speak/write & read Arabic otherwise you cannot understand it fully.
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You know that isn’t fair, Jakasaki.

Christians point out to Muslims that it’s unfair for their holy book to only be fully understood in Arabic, then turn around and tell Protestants that there are actually three kinds of worship that don’t translate well into English, and refer to the Greek when explaining how there can be different words for love, ie eros and agape.
 
Jehoshua said:
Just to make it clear the third 4:78 is a typo and is meant to be 4:79
Now for the reply

Your reply dos nothing to prove the uncontradictability of the Quran. 4:78 clearly has Job say Commemorate Our Servant Job. Behold he cried to his Lord: “The Evil One has afflicted me with distress and suffering!” . You say this is merely him honouring God. This does not compute with me considering its clearly an exclamation for help from Job against satan, and considering the context has nothing of the sort to proove your claim.

Besides this your statement the “ma”, changes nothing of the meaning of “All things come from God” and is totally irrelevant. And besides this you ignored 4:79 which just one Sura after 4:78 contradicts it by saying ALL evil that befalls oneself comes from ones own soul. Now then if this is true Job caused the evil upon himself not God.

ou have done nothing to refute my claims. Simply stating that im wrong doesn;t make it so. You need to clearly and concisely proove the incontradictability of the Quran in a logical argument, this you havent done, you have merely rambled on abo some sura,s and added some commentary. Which has doe nothing to advance your point.
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I dont have to prove anything to you… I am clear about the fact I am following the perfect religion chosen by God for all manking and jinns… I think its you who needs to open your eyes and perceive the right and the wrong… We are not a regime run by an authority that claims to represent God… and unlike other religions, Islam emphasizes personal communication with God for all matters…
 
NoWings said:
You know that isn’t fair, Jakasaki.

Christians point out to Muslims that it’s unfair for their holy book to only be fully understood in Arabic, then turn around and tell Protestants that there are actually three kinds of worship that don’t translate well into English, and refer to the Greek when explaining how there can be different words for love, ie eros and agape.
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Muslims understand the Qur’an more than Christians understand the bible… thats why religious muslims do deeds like praying, fasting, offering alms to the poor and the needy, performing the hajj pilgrimate to mecca AND avoid drinking, fornicating, eating pork, staying away from interest, following the examples of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and so on…

And Allah says in the Qur’an the following: (Holy Qur’an 2:285-86)

YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.”

YUSUFALI: On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) “Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith.”

So even if one is not a classical arabic guru, you can follow the commands of Allah yet be superior in the eyes of Allah… and unlike other religions, just because you are a scholar (sheikh), you are not guaranteed to go to heaven… except with the Mercy of Allah…

The only way to get into heaven, is by the MERCY of Allah, No Deeds or actions can get you into heaven, only his mercy can.

Peace
 
my point was to let non muslims know that in Islam, we communicate with God directly… without having to use a 3rd party… for example, how idolaters think that they can get close to God using idols and how christianity says they can only get to God through Jesus etc
 
Then why call Jesus (PBUH) as the saviour? Why do you have to confess to a priest for forgiveness? (Catholics only)
 
NoWings said:
You know that isn’t fair, Jakasaki.

Christians point out to Muslims that it’s unfair for their holy book to only be fully understood in Arabic, then turn around and tell Protestants that there are actually three kinds of worship that don’t translate well into English, and refer to the Greek when explaining how there can be different words for love, ie eros and agape.
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Wait a minute, NoWings, this objection isn’t fair.

The contention that there are different words in Greek for “love” that make distinctions that are not possible with one word in English is different than the Islamic claim that any translation of the Qur’an ceases to be the “true” Qur’an by virtue of its being a translation. As the meaning of agape or eros can certainly be translated into English, why are we supposed to take Muslims’ word for it that the Qur’an is soooo special that you must read it and pray from it in Arabic? Certainly, Christians of any background can pray in any language and still be expressing theological and liturgical orthodoxy, and the message of the Bible is the same in any language. So why is Arabic treated differently in Islam? Other religions with liturgical languages, like Christianity, do not work this way, even in regions where the liturgical language is essentially an ancient version of the modern (so it is most comparable to the situation with Islam and Arabic), like in the Syriac or Greek communities. They keep their liturgical languages as a preservation of their history, not because God will not accept public prayers unless they are in Syriac.

EDIT for Muslims: I have studied Arabic. It is not magical or mysterious or any of that. It is a regular language like any other, no matter what era or form we’re talking about.
 
A_Lion_Of_Islam said:
I dont have to prove anything to you… I am clear about the fact I am following the perfect religion chosen by God for all manking and jinns… I think its you who needs to open your eyes and perceive the right and the wrong… We are not a regime run by an authority that claims to represent God… and unlike other religions, Islam emphasizes personal communication with God for all matters…
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This statement pretty much sums up that you can;t engage in intelligent logical dialogue. I come up with objections and obvious proofs showing definitively that the Quran has contradictions and so because you can;t accept that, you simply state im incorrect and then insult me and my religion, and ignore the issue. This is a very typical action from many muslims i have talked with.

It shows the shallowness of Islam, in that muslims can;t engage in honest dialogue because otherwise they’d be forced to admit that Islam is fundamentally flawed.
 
Jehoshua said:
This statement pretty much sums up that you can;t engage in intelligent logical dialogue. I come up with objections and obvious proofs showing definitively that the Quran has contradictions and so because you can;t accept that, you simply state im incorrect and then insult me and my religion, and ignore the issue. This is a very typical action from many muslims i have talked with.

It shows the shallowness of Islam, in that muslims can;t engage in honest dialogue because otherwise they’d be forced to admit that Islam is fundamentally flawed.
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And your post #31,
Your reply dos nothing to prove the uncontradictability of the Quran. 4:78 clearly has Job say Commemorate Our Servant Job. Behold he cried to his Lord: “The Evil One has afflicted me with distress and suffering!” . You say this is merely him honouring God. This does not compute with me considering its clearly an exclamation for help from Job against satan, and considering the context has nothing of the sort to proove your claim.
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Besides this your statement the “ma”, changes nothing of the meaning of “All things come from God” and is totally irrelevant. And besides this you ignored 4:79 which just one Sura after 4:78 contradicts it by saying ALL evil that befalls oneself comes from ones own soul. Now then if this is true Job caused the evil upon himself not God.
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I do not see anything about Job in 4:78, 79. Will you please spell out in few words, te contradiction you find in the Quran. If it is not related to free will and/or destiny, with the Grace of God, the matter will be explained to you. So let us know what is contradictory in the Quran, according to your understanding. Thanks.
 
Another typo I mixed up the various Sura’s again. However heres the point clearly spelled out.
If you actually read back then perhaps you’d find the contradiction as i originally put it out.

Here it is again anyway.
In 4:78 it says “ALL things are from Allah” which clearly means evil as well because evil is a part of ALL things. But merely one verse later in 4:79 we find “Whatever good, (O man!)happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from yourself.”

Now here we have the first contradiction, 4:79 says that all things good that happen to oneself come from Allah, but anything evil that happens to oneself is caused from yourself. Yet apparently all things are from Allah in 4:78.

Interestingly in my recent ponderings of Islam i found that merely three verses later it says such contradictions are a sign something is not from God. But back to the point

Later in 38:41 it says. Commemorate Our Servant Job, behold he cried out to his Lord: “Satan has afflicted me with distress and suffering!”

Lo and behold we now a third party in the competition to see who causes evil, Now here it is clearly stating that Satan is afflicting Job with evil and he’s asking Allah to help. So now we have a trifecta of personages responsible for evil. Allah which 4:78 clearly says is the cause of ALL things. Yourself in which 4:79 says Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself. . And then we have 38:41 in which clearly it says Satan is causing the calamity to befall Job.
And so now we have the great contradiction of the originator of Evil. Satan, Oneself or Allah. Now 4:79 clearly differentiates Allah as the cause of Good while oneself as the cause of Evil which clearly contradicts the verse 4:78 which says Allah is the cause of ALL things. And then we have Satan causing Evil later.

This is clearly contradictory, not to mention other ones ive mentioned and more besides. Lion_of_Islam has ignored the question, for reasons i’ve believed ive already stated. Now lets see how you explain this clear and obvious violation of the immutability of the Quran.
 
Paganism is perversion of the human heart , formed to be directed towards God, is directed elsewhere. A human being can perceive Someone or Something beyond the creation of nature and the world around him.

Perversion also extends to not seeing God’s creation for what it is creation…and not a deity in itself.
 
Lion of Islam,

I remember when you first came on with your remarks, and then said they were jokes.

I do not go on Protestant, HIndu, or Muslim forums. I remain here because Catholicism is my identity.

For you to come here and insult our faith does not show true religion. It also shows you do not believe in the basic dignity of man who was made in the image of God.

Islam speaks of both Allah and Spirit…right there you have two persons…

Christ always was with God and Spirit but came to show us the face of God and call Him Father, and restore our dignity and humanity – in relation to our neighbor…Christ became Man to restore us to Father and to neighbor…by serving Christ at our neighbor’s feet.

The Church and Christianity for that matter has suffered very much through the 20th century with the pressure of modern society. Your region of the world is only now experiencing what has also oppressed us. A hundred years ago, how did your region live?

The world now is very small and now Middle Easterners must learn to see people as equal human beings.

Do not limit God…He is much greater and has given us a Savior Who was hidden from the beginning ages to His final Revelation of Who God is 2000 years ago. Jesus came for you.
 
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