What is a pagan??

[Eris_Discordia]

LOL. I actually don’t do ANY sort of magic, Chaos or otherwise. I just like the ideals the Discordians follow. I’ve learned a lot about it. I actually Stumbled onto it using the stumble feature on Firefox when I was trying to find myself, and their beliefs fit a lot of mine.
*Edit, should probably mention I’ve been studying it for at least 2 years or so.

I know that quote! I can’t think of it though… darn it.

@Kathleen: Thanks! You actually sound a lot like my mom. My mom and I are very close. I’m an only child, and I graduated a few years ago from a PA Catholic grade and High School. She’s finally moving on from the empty nest syndrome. Raising kids is hard. We’re still arguing about me having kids. I want to adopt a teenager when I get a job and get my life in order. My mom says I’m like my dad. He was the intellectual, God rest him, and she was the street smart one. They balanced each other well, which is probably why we get along so well. She can give me advice, and I can help her learn about things. Your son sounds really quirky and awesome. Seriously, he seems like his heart is always in the right place, no matter what his choices are.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Cyberwolf,

Child molester? Where did that come from?? Have you been watching the public school system?

My point was you keep saying to you Pagan = killing. I was asking how you’d feel if I did onto you as you are doing onto me and mine. Mind you I have no plans to do so, only wanted to point out how you are treating others.

My son had a picture of this young man with a gun on the back of his bedroom door like he was waiting for someone to walk in…and then there was another one that looked like a demon guy and he said that was the symbol of this band…and then he proceeded to tell me this symbol of the band was OK because they played good music…

Anything like this guy? Link

I have not read all of the posts, so if this is redundant, please ignore me and forgive me.

There are lots of ways to describe “pagans”, but I think the best way to approach it is to first consider what “paganism” is, since “pagans” would be those who adhere to it.

Again, there are lots of ways of describing paganism, but one sticks in my mind as perhaps the most appropriately descriptive.

Paganism is a religion in which one acknowledges a being or beings superior to oneself and which one attempts to control by various means to (almost always) worldly ends.

So, for example, if one sacrifices bulls to Apollo, the purpose is to bend Apollo to my will, so he will favor my ventures. If one sacrifices one’s children to Moloch, one is doing the same thing, in order, supposedly, to obtain material prosperity. If one sacrifices enemies to an Aztec god (can’t remember the name) the corn will grow and the sun will continue to shine. If one flawlessly recites the formulations in the Book of the Dead, the mummified human will pass through the tests posited by ancient Egyptian religion.

In virtually every version of paganism, the superior beings are limited or flawed (and thus often many and specialized) yet they have power to affect events; almost always of a terrestrial nature. In paganism, one posits something the god or goddess desires, whether it be the blood of bulls, children or enemies, or (as with the Greeks) the very smell of beef roasting and the taste of wine poured out on the ground for them.

Paganism is not so very far from witchcraft and is frequently encountered as an acknowledged accompaniment. In witchcraft, again, one posits some kind of superior being, perhaps Gaia, perhaps “the goddess”, perhaps a literal Satan (usually cleaned up). Through various formulations, spells, practices, gifts, etc, one attempts to bend the superior being to the will of the devotee. Magic is the “fruit” of it at the margin. In magic, one appropriates the powers of the superior beings (controls them) through spells or charms or whatever, and utilizes those powers in favor of the devotee.

It is fundamentally evil in that it is an attempt (however, perhaps, unwitting) to control God.

This is so wrong, in so many ways… I do not even know where to start correcting it.

LOL. I actually don’t do ANY sort of magic, Chaos or otherwise. I just like the ideals the Discordians follow. I’ve learned a lot about it. I actually Stumbled onto it using the stumble feature on Firefox when I was trying to find myself, and their beliefs fit a lot of mine.
*Edit, should probably mention I’ve been studying it for at least 2 years or so.

I know that quote! I can’t think of it though… darn it.

@Kathleen: Thanks! You actually sound a lot like my mom. My mom and I are very close. I’m an only child, and I graduated a few years ago from a PA Catholic grade and High School. She’s finally moving on from the empty nest syndrome. Raising kids is hard. We’re still arguing about me having kids. I want to adopt a teenager when I get a job and get my life in order. My mom says I’m like my dad. He was the intellectual, God rest him, and she was the street smart one. They balanced each other well, which is probably why we get along so well. She can give me advice, and I can help her learn about things. Your son sounds really quirky and awesome. Seriously, he seems like his heart is always in the right place, no matter what his choices are.

Hey Eris have you read the Principia yet?

 

[Ridgerunner]

This is so wrong, in so many ways… I do not even know where to start correcting it.
/QUOTE]

At the beginning, perhaps.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

@Cyberwolf.

I have read a good portion of it online, but I need to read the rest of it. I don’t like reading books online. Once I have money, I plan on getting the book. Being a college student is not good in the money department.

 

[cyberwolf001]

At the beginning, perhaps.

Good ide!

Paganism is a religion in which one acknowledges a being or beings superior to oneself and which one attempts to control by various means

This to start with! While I admit we got our share of nuts (fluff bunnies) as much as the RCC has what I’ve heard called N.O. Catholics a term a friend once used to refer to Catholics that are also tarot readers and other such odd things for a Catholic including that crazy tounges stuff.

This is not true of Paganism anymore than the N.O. Catholic or a pro-abortion Catholic’s views are true of Catholicism.

to (almost always) worldly ends.

Define worldly ends and why this would be a bad thing please.

 

[Ahimsa]

Is “bunk” evil?

 

[Eris_Discordia]

Well your Catholic, correct? What makes the beliefs of pagans naive? I do use Tarot, but I don’t see it as an end all be all. It’s more of a figuring out where things stand, and how to progress. Kind of like asking God for signs in a Christian sense.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Define worldly ends and why this would be a bad thing please.

Explain why it would be a good thing, and you will probably have answered the question yourself.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This to start with! While I admit we got our share of nuts (fluff bunnies) as much as the RCC has what I’ve heard called N.O. Catholics a term a friend once used to refer to Catholics that are also tarot readers and other such odd things for a Catholic including that crazy tounges stuff.

I don’t know what your friend means by “N.O. Catholics”. I’m tempted to suspect he meant Catholics who like the Novus Ordo. If so, he doesn’t know much about that, since it’s totally incompatible with stuff like reading tarot cards. But since that’s so bizarre, I almost have to think he meant some other thing.

 

[cyberwolf001]

I don’t know what your friend means by “N.O. Catholics”. I’m tempted to suspect he meant Catholics who like the Novus Ordo. If so, he doesn’t know much about that, since it’s totally incompatible with stuff like reading tarot cards. But since that’s so bizarre, I almost have to think he meant some other thing.

I think that was it actually meant to be Novus Ordo. Goodness knows I am always bein’ hit up by the non-traditionalist for tarot readings and spells…

Explain why it would be a good thing, and you will probably have answered the question yourself.

Well at least answer the part where you define what a worldly end is. I hear the terms used so often, but never really got the meaning. It almost seems like it means if you are poor, live in bad housing and want a better job, home and stuff there is something wrong with you.

But I do not want to think that is true as it makes Catholicism seem to be about keeping people in there place.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

I am astounded by my misuse of “Your” Being an English major and making such a simple grammar mistake is embarrassing…

I digress. I guess for me, I’ve been to several Wiccan ceremonies, and what amazed me was that everyone was into it. They didn’t just go through the motions, which I have seen in so many Catholic services. There was such a sense of belonging, and even as an outsider, I was made to feel welcome. For someone like me, who has always been the weird kid, it was a big deal. I used to cantor at church, and I had dyed the tips of my hair blue, and someone complained to my choir director about me, because of my hair. Not because I sung badly, or didn’t know what I was doing, but because of the way I looked. I feel like the roots of a faith are nothing, but it’s the directions that it goes. It is why I embraced Wicca, and eventually stumbled on Discordianism. They just seemed more inclusive to me. Also the reason I became pagan was the fact that they didn’t say that you HAD to be pagan to get into “Heaven”. To me at least, they were just as unsure about this life as I was, and weren’t trying to force their beliefs on me. From my experience, organized religion never really sat well with me. Just from a personal viewpoint, my belief is that no human can ever no the mind of God(or Gaia, or Eris, or whoever one chooses to follow), and that I can not in good conscious follow someone who claimed any sort of absolute truth. For me, it’s whatever one wants to believe, as long as they are a good person, and I got more of a sense of that in Paganism than I did in Catholicism. I respect the members of the Catholic faith, but for me, it just wasn’t something I could belong to.

Wow… that was a rather long explanation…

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think that was it actually meant to be Novus Ordo. Goodness knows I am always bein’ hit up by the non-traditionalist for tarot readings and spells…

I think your friend needs to study this out again. There is no particular connection between liking the Novus Ordo (in English or Latin or any other language) and being a “non-traditionalist”.

If you are always being asked by people who identify themselves as Catholics for tarot readings and spells, then I would say you’re dealing with people who have essentially left their faith if they’re serious about it and not just doing it for a lark.

So, what does one accomplish with the spells? I think I understand that Tarot cards are supposedly used to foretell the future.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well at least answer the part where you define what a worldly end is. I hear the terms used so often, but never really got the meaning. It almost seems like it means if you are poor, live in bad housing and want a better job, home and stuff there is something wrong with you.

But I do not want to think that is true as it makes Catholicism seem to be about keeping people in there place.

Possibly your friend is not the only one who does not understand Catholicism.

You don’t know what “worldly” means?

What are the spells for? What do they actually do?

 

[Eris_Discordia]

I think your friend needs to study this out again. There is no particular connection between liking the Novus Ordo (in English or Latin or any other language) and being a “non-traditionalist”.

If you are always being asked by people who identify themselves as Catholics for tarot readings and spells, then I would say you’re dealing with people who have essentially left their faith if they’re serious about it and not just doing it for a lark.

So, what does one accomplish with the spells? I think I understand that Tarot cards are supposedly used to foretell the future.

Tarot cards aren’t used for future-telling.
At least when I use them. I use them to pretty much help me assess my situation, not to tell the future.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Tarot cards aren’t used for future-telling.
At least when I use them. I use them to pretty much help me assess my situation, not to tell the future.

“Assess your situation”? So how does reading Tarot cards help you with that? Will ordinary playing cards do, or is there something communicated to you from the cards than your own brain can’t come up with?

And what do the spells do?

 

[kenofken]

“Assess your situation”? So how does reading Tarot cards help you with that? Will ordinary playing cards do, or is there something communicated to you from the cards than your own brain can’t come up with?

And what do the spells do?

You half answered your own question without realizing it. Like all oracles of its kind, Tarot doesn’t give you a magical portal to the future or channel inerrant truth from some outside source. It helps you get a perspective on things not readily seen by your conscious mind. It is often described as a a sort of interface with your higher self, or at least unconscious self, which communicates in imagery rather than words.

It’s not something I do frequently or run my life by, but it’s another tool. When I’m at some major crossroads in my life, it gives me another check on the situation, one I may be too emotional or too close to or over-intellectualizing to otherwise see. It gives me some insights on the general forces at play. It’s a bit like weather radar or a barometer of sorts. It doesn’t gaurantee a storm for instance, or tell you where a tornado will form, but it can tell you “these conditions are present.” It gives you probabilities. I find when I do it in this light, with serious purpose, I get VERY clear and accurate reads. Conversely, when people do it for light amusement or ask poorly-framed questions, they get junk answers. Sort of like random internet cruising vs good research. And to your other point, yes, you can use ordinary playing cards, or any of a hundred other common things laying about the house, if you work with them and develop an understanding of what various symbols or changes mean to you. On another level, Tarot is wonderfully rich in artwork and symbolism with many many layers of meaning drawn from both Christianity and older Kaballah sources.

Spells are a much bigger topic still, but the boiled-down theory is this: a razor-sharp focus of your intent and will on a particular goal, accompanied by a raising, directing and release of energy toward the same end. It is not energy “given” to us by Satan or any other entity, but the same energy that infuses all of creation. We don’t even consider it to be a supernatural act, or one limited to pagans. Nor is it a means for conjuring things into our lives we can’t attain by other means. Ideally, it is done in concert with action in the “mundane world.” Does it work? It works as well as any other actions you consciously set in motion. It works if your will and perserverance are brought to bear on something attainable, and no stronger force thwarts your progress toward it.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Possibly your friend is not the only one who does not understand Catholicism.

You don’t know what “worldly” means?

I’ve heard it alot to in reference to things like: Amusment parks, dancing, eating anything but bland food, reading fictional works the list goes on but never really got the meaning. Just seems like one of those catch all terms for anything not out and out religious.

You half answered your own question without realizing it. Like all oracles of its kind, Tarot doesn’t give you a magical portal to the future or channel inerrant truth from some outside source. It helps you get a perspective on things not readily seen by your conscious mind. It is often described as a a sort of interface with your higher self, or at least unconscious self, which communicates in imagery rather than words.

The above is one few on magic which, no offense kenofken, I see as boarderline atheist and almost like people don’t want to scare the mundanes. [Mundanes = non-magic users and those that believe only the material world exist a sort of catch all term, highly controversial in some Pagan circles]

The best definition I can think to give you is any sacrament, sacramental, ritual or prayer that does that come from the Christian God. Which in a mystical way affects our reality.

There is more to my views but that is a quick and simple way to discribe it for you. Tarot can tell the future, at Yule during ritual I took omen for the coming year and learned I’d have my nose to the grindstone working for little gain.

Sure enough I am now working thifty-three and a half hours a week. This gives me thirteen and a half hours overtime. Right before getting the overtime got swamped with sudden bills and a few regular bills became more costly. I believe the gods saw this coming and blessed me with the resources to navigate this storm.

I can give you a more detailed explination if you would like on my views on magic.

 

[NoWings]

How about the Unmoved Mover? It is for real as well.

Are you talking about the Unmoved Prime Mover? As in, from Greek philosophy that Thomas Aquinas is fond of?

It states that since the universe is in motion something had to set it in motion. Something that cannot be moved itself (God).

 

[Eris_Discordia]

You half answered your own question without realizing it. Like all oracles of its kind, Tarot doesn’t give you a magical portal to the future or channel inerrant truth from some outside source. It helps you get a perspective on things not readily seen by your conscious mind. It is often described as a a sort of interface with your higher self, or at least unconscious self, which communicates in imagery rather than words.

It’s not something I do frequently or run my life by, but it’s another tool. When I’m at some major crossroads in my life, it gives me another check on the situation, one I may be too emotional or too close to or over-intellectualizing to otherwise see. It gives me some insights on the general forces at play. It’s a bit like weather radar or a barometer of sorts. It doesn’t gaurantee a storm for instance, or tell you where a tornado will form, but it can tell you “these conditions are present.” It gives you probabilities. I find when I do it in this light, with serious purpose, I get VERY clear and accurate reads. Conversely, when people do it for light amusement or ask poorly-framed questions, they get junk answers. Sort of like random internet cruising vs good research. And to your other point, yes, you can use ordinary playing cards, or any of a hundred other common things laying about the house, if you work with them and develop an understanding of what various symbols or changes mean to you. On another level, Tarot is wonderfully rich in artwork and symbolism with many many layers of meaning drawn from both Christianity and older Kaballah sources.

Spells are a much bigger topic still, but the boiled-down theory is this: a razor-sharp focus of your intent and will on a particular goal, accompanied by a raising, directing and release of energy toward the same end. It is not energy “given” to us by Satan or any other entity, but the same energy that infuses all of creation. We don’t even consider it to be a supernatural act, or one limited to pagans. Nor is it a means for conjuring things into our lives we can’t attain by other means. Ideally, it is done in concert with action in the “mundane world.” Does it work? It works as well as any other actions you consciously set in motion. It works if your will and perserverance are brought to bear on something attainable, and no stronger force thwarts your progress toward it.

Wow, you gave a better answer than I did. This is kind of how I see Tarot. Although, to me, it is sort of divine in nature, like the Gods giving me a heads up on things I might have missed in my situation, because of being so close to it. I don’t think they can necessarily tell the future, however, in some instances they can in a way. I read Tarot for either myself or my boyfriend, shortly after we started dating. It said that communication would be the key to our relationship, and without it, then things would fall apart. 5 months in, we really stopped communicating well, and we nearly broke up. Ever since, we’ve been communicating with each other, and things are rock solid in this relationship. We’ll be going on a year in April, and we have an amazingly wonderful relationship. Little things like that, that can mean a lot when you look at them in a different way.

As for spells, I have done one once, and it was only to heal my boyfriend from being really sick. Other than that I don’t practice. I only did it because I felt like I understood the spell and the cost, as well as how to do it properly. If I have no idea what I am doing, I don’t do it. With magic, I feel like I don’t know enough about doing other sorts of things.

 

[Ahimsa]

“Assess your situation”? So how does reading Tarot cards help you with that? Will ordinary playing cards do, or is there something communicated to you from the cards than your own brain can’t come up with?

Ordinary playing cards will do, as well. Or, you could also meditate on your question and situation, and open up a Bible “at random” and reading the first verse that your eyes fall upon. The same basic process occurs in both cases.