What is a perfect man?

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I have heard that the Catholic Church confirms the existence of perfect mortals. What exactly does this mean?

I relise this does not mean the Church is saying that some people have never sinned? But what then does it mean? Does it mean to have every mortal and venial sin forgiven? Given what the scripture talks about (venal) sin this seems rather impossible, even the great peoples, for example Theresa, have had doubts, a serious venial sin.

Now understand I don’t need to be lectured on the Catholic understanding of venial sins, I am not a Protestant to claim, all sins are equal, but growing up Protestant has influenced me to see how much we sin, how far we have fallen.

All answers are appreciated, some more than others.
 
Holy_Crucifix said:
I have heard that the Catholic Church confirms the existence of perfect mortals. What exactly does this mean?
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This is more a matter of mystical theology than doctrine.

There are two degrees of perfection. We attain complete and absolute perfection only when we stand with the Saints in heaven. On earth, this level of perfection is impossible to achieve.

On earth, the level of perfection we can possibly achieve is limited. But it is possible for us to actually attain this level of perfection (to be as perfect as we can possibly be). Many Saints have done so (St. Ignatius of Loyola, for example). Mary is our role model in this regard.
 
The Bible tells us: No man is perfect, no not one.

Jesus Christ came to demonstrate by word, action and the power of the Holy Spirit, what we must know and do.

In Peter 3:2, we find out how important controlling our tongue really is, and by extension, even our writing:

3: 2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

As to the saints, as proof that they are of sufficient faith when those who pray and ask their intercession, a miracle is granted. Two miracles must be attributed to this person for him or her to be called a saint. All saints but Mary began as sinners.

God bless,
Ed
 
Thank you for your replies.

To David, please elaborate.

To edwest, I personaly have no difficulty believing Mary is greatest of Saints, but to say Mary had no venial sins? This, theologicaly is to place her at the mount of Purgatory, without even the need on earth to work to achieve heaven, to place her at the purity of Eve. This, for me is hard to accept. Again, please elaborate.
 
Holy_Crucifix said:
David, please elaborate.
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I’m surely not the best person to elaborate – I know of these things second-hand from my wife, who is a tertiary Carmelite. Surely many participants on this forum are more qualified to discuss Catholic mysticism, and perhaps they can elaborate or correct this brief bit of information.

The way of perfection was, perhaps, most clearly described in a book written by St. Theresa of Avila which was appropriately titled, “The Way of Perfection” (El Camino de Perfección). St. Theresa was a 16th Century Spanish nun who, along with her pupil, St. John of the Cross, established a reformed order of Carmelite nuns and monks. These Saints have both been declared Doctors of the Church.

St. Theresa described the process of perfection, which can only occur by uniting ourselves completely with Christ in the faculties of both body and soul. This union is described as spiritual marriage, and our devotion to Christ is like the devotion to a spouse.

This devotion enables the “ascent of the soul” and has four “states” (for lack of a better word):
  • Devotion of the Heart (devout prayer and penance, centered primarily around the Passion of Christ).
  • Devotion of Peace: Our will is united with the Will of God through special supernatural Grace.
  • Devotion of Union: Our reason is united with God. This is a state of spiritual ecstasy.
  • Devotion of Rapture: We loose awareness of our bodily existence, uniting also our memory and imagination with that of God (St. Paul alludes to this experience in 2Cor 12:2-3)
    St. John of the Cross further explained the trials and tribulations we experience along the way to perfection in his mystical poem, “The Dark Night of the Soul” (La Noche Oscura de la Alm). The period of darkness that you mentioned in the lives of some Saints is their participation in this phase of “darkness” which always is part of the pursuit of spiritual perfection. This phase is temporary (although sometimes long-lived – St. Paul of the Cross endured it for 45 years). In this “darkness” one looses the feeling of satisfaction that often accompanies prayer and spiritual works of mercy, and sometimes these acts become pure drudgery. One can feel abandoned by God and have his/her faith shaken. Yet, we persevere – not because we seek the personal satisfaction we once experienced, but because of our love and devotion to Christ. In this way, God thus purges us of any selfish motives for our actions - we learn to be satisfied doing these things only because we love Jesus (and, thus, the “Dark Night” is seen a blessing from God).
Attaining this level of perfection is rarely a “do it yourself” prospect. Most people (including most Saints) require competent spiritual direction, and often the support of a spiritual community. People (especially ordinary lay people) who read “Way of Perfection,” “Dark Night,” and “Interior Castle” and then try to attain perfection without guidance and support are unlikely to succeed, and they may do themselves more harm than good.
 
I read the title of this thread, and the first thing that came to mind was ‘Of course! My husband!’🙂

But that’s not really what you meant, now is it?😃
 
A perfect man pays his indulgences to the church to avoid any temporary time in hell with the devil poking at your feet with his little pitchfork.
 
Holy_Crucifix said:
? Given what the scripture talks about (venal) sin this seems rather impossible, even the great peoples, for example Theresa, have had doubts, a serious venial sin.

QUOTE]

Fr. Brian Kolodiejchuk who wrote the book, “come be my light”
was a 20 year friend of Mother Theresa. I listened to him on the radio, and he said what the secular media interpreted as a crisis of faith was rather a “very long dark night of the soul”. That is something that happens to most Christians in their journey and is a sign of spiritual maturity. The dark night of the soul is something that God allows to happen to spiritually mature Christians as a purification. She didn’t experience the “feeling” of the presence of God for 50 years, yet she remained faithful and accepted that spiritual darkness as sharing in the passion of Christ. She prayed to share in the sufferings of Jesus for the salvation of souls. This concept makes no sense to the secular media, but perfect sense to Catholics. Jesus says “If you wish to be my desciples you must take up your cross and follow me”. Mother Theresa did exactly that.
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A man whose will and deeds are congruent to the Creator’s by His grace and our perseverance.
 
Again, thank you for your replies.

Ed, I didn’t quite find what I was looking for in your link. I might have scimmed over it to quickly, but, if you could please show me were in the link it explains how Mary never sinned, that would be appreciated.

Cranster: Don’t worry, I understand how the media completely over-exagerated the find, I just assumed this was a period of doubt. However your post was very interesting to me in combined with David (thank you for spending the time to write that all up.)

Both of you talk about this, “Black night of the Soul.” I thank both of you for mentioning it. I’m going to see if I can find it. It sounds like a marvelous read.
David, I am greatly enjoying your posts, Catholic mystisism fascinates me, but, alas, it is very difficult to learn about, but by those who practice it.😛 However, please answer this, is earthly perfection, the way Catholics see it, the attainment of Sainthood? Are these two things interchangeable? It seems to me that this is your implication, but this would be in contrary to what Edwest said, that the only perfect human was Mary. Thank you.
 
I don’t think an elaborate explanation is necessary. The Church teaches that Mary was without sin and was chosen by God, and with her assent, became the vessel through which the Savior was born into this world. Her Immaculate Conception is a truth held in the deposit of faith. With God, all things are possible.

Peace,
Ed
 
Holy_Crucifix said:
However, please answer this, is earthly perfection, the way Catholics see it, the attainment of Sainthood? Are these two things interchangeable?
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A person who dies in a state of earthly perfection will surely go to heaven, thus attaining sainthood. But this person might not ever be formally canonized by the Catholic Church.

Nor have all canonized Saints have attained earthly perfection. St. Jerome surely did not.
Holy_Crucifix said:
It seems to me that this is your implication, but this would be in contrary to what Edwest said, that the only perfect human was Mary.
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Mary is not the only human who has lived in a state of earthly perfection, but she is the only human to have done so for her entire life (and, thus, had never been touched by sin).
 
Just two verses…

James 3:2 (DR)
“For in many things we all offend.
If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man.
He is able also with a bridle to lead about the whole body.”

Ephesians 4:13 (DR)
“Until we all meet into the unity of faith,
and of the knowledge of
the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ.”
 
edwest2 said:
I don’t think an elaborate explanation is necessary. The Church teaches that Mary was without sin and was chosen by God, and with her assent, became the vessel through which the Savior was born into this world. Her Immaculate Conception is a truth held in the deposit of faith. With God, all things are possible.

Peace,
Ed
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Mary was born baptised, removed of original sin?
 
edwest2 said:
The Bible tells us: No man is perfect, no not one.

Jesus Christ came to demonstrate by word, action and the power of the Holy Spirit, what we must know and do.

In Peter 3:2, we find out how important controlling our tongue really is, and by extension, even our writing:

3: 2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

As to the saints, as proof that they are of sufficient faith when those who pray and ask their intercession, a miracle is granted. Two miracles must be attributed to this person for him or her to be called a saint. All saints but Mary began as sinners.

God bless,
Ed
Click to expand...
.
 
DavidFilmer said:
A person who dies in a state of earthly perfection will surely go to heaven, thus attaining sainthood. But this person might not ever be formally canonized by the Catholic Church.

Nor have all canonized Saints have attained earthly perfection. St. Jerome surely did not.

Mary is not the only human who has lived in a state of earthly perfection, but she is the only human to have done so for her entire life (and, thus, had never been touched by sin).
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, but there seems to be a contradiction between your two comments. You define Sainthood as dying in perfection,(something I can agree with) but you go on to say Jerome, a Saint, never achieved perfection. How then is he a saint?
 
Saints are people in Heaven. That does not necessarily mean they were perfect. It means they were very holy. Not to go off topic, but I also want to mention Mary’s Assumption- she never was in Purgatory; her body was taken straight into Heaven.
 
Surely no one is perfect in eye’s of God, how can we/man determine who is rightly perfect, no one is perfect but God.

The greatest level of perfection that man can attain on earth is to those few who come into friendship with God

Few are saved?
 
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