What is a perfect man?

[richardRC]

I’m sorry but what Richard, did you think you just contributed?

Just to signify that I could not put it better than what that man said!

There are alot of differing opinions on the topic at hand and honestly I find most of them completely contrary to Catholic teaching!

 

[rosarygirl7]

Only someone 100% without sin can be called perfect. So Mary was really the only perfect human, because God made her so, without original sin. Is that right? I am pretty sure.

 

[Holy_Crucifix]

…

Patiently waits for David and Ed

 

[richardRC]

Only someone 100% without sin can be called perfect. So Mary was really the only perfect human, because God made her so, without original sin. Is that right? I am pretty sure.

Mary was the holiest woman to ever walk the earth but it doesn’t mean she’s perfect if only in an earthly sense of perfection, God is the only one who is truly perfect.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I’m sorry, but there seems to be a contradiction between your two comments. You define Sainthood as dying in perfection

That’s not what I said. I said that someone who dies in a state of earthly perfection will surely attain heavenly sainthood. But I did not “define” it this way - most saints in heaven (including those not formally canonized) never attained perfection on earth. Dying while in a state of earthly perfection (as recognized by God) *assures *salvation (heavenly sainthood), but it is not *required *for ultimate salvation.

but you go on to say Jerome, a Saint, never achieved perfection. How then is he a saint?

Because God is merciful. And the Church does not require of someone more than God requires. And God does not require perfection, but a loving and contrite heart. If God was only Just, without the temperance of Mercy, then He would* require *perfection. Yet, God is *both *Just *and *Merciful, so we do not need to be “perfect,” but only “good enough” (which precludes mortal sin,BTW).

However, those who die in a state of earthly perfection will experience heaven in a different manner than those who die in a lesser state. The closer we come to this perfection on earth, the closer we come to this ultimate experience in heaven. This is what Jesus meant when he said, “my Father’s kingdom has many mansions”

 

[DavidFilmer]

There are alot of differing opinions on the topic at hand and honestly I find most of them completely contrary to Catholic teaching!

I suspect (given the context of your other posts) that you find my positions the most contrary, because I am (I believe) the only person in this thread who has clearly advocated that earthly perfection is possible (within orthodox Catholic understanding). And, thus, I find myself in the unexpected position of being the lone spokesperson in a CA thread for Catholic mystical theology. I had expected, by now, to have been joined by someone with more direct knowledge and experience.

I have not stated my own opinions, but I have attempted to summarize the teachings of two of the most profound Saints of the Church who most clearly and formally defined the Catholic understanding of perfection (and were named Doctors of the Church because of it) - namely Saints Theresa of Avila, and John of the Cross.

If you say that earthly perfection is impossible, then I will tell you that these two Doctors of the Church disagree with you.

Furthermore, a third (also Carmelite) Doctor of the Church more recently expanded our understanding of perfection by explaining that earthly perfection does not require “great heroic saints,” but can be achieved by even “ordinary” people. This Saint showed that even the smallest wildflower of the field was as “perfect” in the eyes of God as the most magnificent rose. The name of this Saint (and Doctor of the Church) was Therese of Lisseux (also called “The Little Flower,” after her teaching) – she has been called “the most popular Saint of the 20th Century.”

If you wish to say that earthly perfection is impossible except for someone who is Immaculately Conceived (ie, only Mary), then I refer you to, not one, not two, but three Doctors of the Church who will absolutely dispute your claim.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Only someone 100% without sin can be called perfect. So Mary was really the only perfect human, because God made her so, without original sin. Is that right?

Mary, by the Grace of her Immaculate Conception (and the perfect cooperation of her own Free Will) was perfect from the moment of her conception until her death. No other (non-Divine) human being can make this claim.

However, it is possible for an imperfect human to shed his/her impurities and attain perfection. The Bible alludes to this purification as a “trial by fire” in the same manner as metals are purified by fire (for example, see Ps. 12:6).

This purification ALWAYS takes place before someone can be admitted to heaven. USUALLY this process of purification happens in Purgatory (through the Mercy of God). Yet, the Church has always maintained that we can mitigate our participation in Purgatory by earthly acts - both spiritual and physical. This is a central tenet of the doctrine of Indulgences.

Although it has never been formally defined as a Doctrine of the Church, several Saints have been canonized and recognized as Doctors of the Church for teaching that it is possible to attain a large measure of the purification of Purgatory (ie, perfection) while still on earth (I say “large measure” because Purgatory will ALWAYS lead to heavenly perfection, which is total and absolute, and is greater than we can hope to achieve while on earth).

 

[DavidFilmer]

oops - mistaken post. Please disregard.

 

[Holy_Crucifix]

That’s not what I said. I said that someone who dies in a state of earthly perfection will surely attain heavenly sainthood. But I did not “define” it this way - most saints in heaven (including those not formally canonized) never attained perfection on earth. Dying while in a state of earthly perfection (as recognized by God) *assures *salvation (heavenly sainthood), but it is not *required *for ultimate salvation.

Because God is merciful. And the Church does not require of someone more than God requires. And God does not require perfection, but a loving and contrite heart. If God was only Just, without the temperance of Mercy, then He would* require *perfection. Yet, God is *both *Just *and *Merciful, so we do not need to be “perfect,” but only “good enough” (which precludes mortal sin,BTW).

However, those who die in a state of earthly perfection will experience heaven in a different manner than those who die in a lesser state. The closer we come to this perfection on earth, the closer we come to this ultimate experience in heaven. This is what Jesus meant when he said, “my Father’s kingdom has many mansions”

Perhaps I am wrong in this, but, I was under the assumption that even the smallest sin, needed to be negated either in human life or in Purgatory in oreder to reach heaven. So, is perfection different than dying with all sins attoned? On this topic, I had another confusion, does mortal sin mean Hell, or can it be purified on the mount of Purgatory, as Purgatorio (not doctrine I know) suggests?

A few other questions I had that would clarify youp post:

How then does the Church authorize Sainthood, if earthly perfection (something more recognizable) is not required?

Could you please back up that last point? I’ve never heard that doctrine before, at least to that extent.

Thank you again for your time.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I was under the assumption that even the smallest sin, needed to be negated either in human life or in Purgatory in order to reach heaven.

This is correct.

So, is perfection different than dying with all sins attoned?

Oh, yes, vastly different.

Attaining earthly perfection goes FAR beyond being in a state of complete sinlessness (which is pretty easy to achieve). Everyone attains this sinless state upon Baptism, or after faithfully completing a plenary indulgence. If a person died immediately after doing one of these events, s/he would go straight to heaven (skipping Purgatory).

Attaining a state of earthly perfection is a long (lifetime) process of physical mortification and spiritual purification, in which our will is freely and completely united with the Will of God.

does mortal sin mean Hell, or can it be purified on the mount of Purgatory

A person who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to hell. Purgatory would not apply.

How then does the Church authorize Sainthood, if earthly perfection (something more recognizable) is not required?

I’m not sure what you mean by “authorize.” The Church, in some cases, “recognizes” that someone has been admitted to the company of the Heavenly Saints and bestows the title “Saint” (but the vast majority of heavenly Saints are not recognized in this way). This is only an *acknowledgement *of what God has already done.

Canonization is a long and complicated process which has several phases and takes many years (sometimes hundreds of years). You can read about it at the Vatican’s website: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/index.htm

Could you please back up that last point?.

Hmm. I thought I could (I’m sure I’ve seen this many places), but I can’t find it in the Catechism.

I’ve heard it explained in an analogy of water glasses. Some glasses are larger than others, so they can hold more water. We are the glass, and God is the water. God will completely fill us - as full as we could possibly be - so nobody could complain that they have been “shortchanged” even if they hold less water, because they could not hold any more. The difference in size is related to how we live our lives - some live in such a way as to make themselves more receptive to God.

However, as I cannot find this in the Catechism, I can’t vouch for it here.

 

[cranster]

Cranster: (thank you for spending the time to write that all up.)

.

It really took no effort, I just connected my fingers to my usual diarrhea of the brain.:

 

[Holy_Crucifix]

This is correct.

Oh, yes, vastly different.

Attaining earthly perfection goes FAR beyond being in a state of complete sinlessness (which is pretty easy to achieve). Everyone attains this sinless state upon Baptism, or after faithfully completing a plenary indulgence. If a person died immediately after doing one of these events, s/he would go straight to heaven (skipping Purgatory).

Attaining a state of earthly perfection is a long (lifetime) process of physical mortification and spiritual purification, in which our will is freely and completely united with the Will of God.

A person who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to hell. Purgatory would not apply.

Hmm. I thought I could (I’m sure I’ve seen this many places), but I can’t find it in the Catechism.

I’ve heard it explained in an analogy of water glasses. Some glasses are larger than others, so they can hold more water. We are the glass, and God is the water. God will completely fill us - as full as we could possibly be - so nobody could complain that they have been “shortchanged” even if they hold less water, because they could not hold any more. The difference in size is related to how we live our lives - some live in such a way as to make themselves more receptive to God.

However, as I cannot find this in the Catechism, I can’t vouch for it here.

Thank you. I still however need a few things clarified.

Firstly, I think you simplify sinlessness. It is so easy to sin, it only takes a single thought to deserve Hell. God’s grace is manifold, but, I think it is nessasary to stress human sinfullness.

I am shocked by the idea that mortal sin cannot be purified through Purgatory. For example, Catholics believe, and rightfully so, that to be a part of the Church is nessasary for salvation. However, the Church excommunicates members of the Church, as they have the right to. This does not and should not bar them from salvation. At the moment, the classical approach of Dante is more appealing to me.

As to the waterglass issue, thank you for the anolgy, keep looking to see if you can find a source.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Firstly, I think you simplify sinlessness. It is so easy to sin, it only takes a single thought to deserve Hell. God’s grace is manifold, but, I think it is nessasary to stress human sinfullness.

I think you underestimate the Mercy of God, or overestimate how easy it is to fall into mortal sin (which is the only kind of sin that can cause you to go to hell - a trillion venial sins won’t do so).

I don’t think you’ve thought that one through. An excommunicate is guilty of at least one mortal sin: serious open and willful disobedience of the Church. If a person wishes to gain absolution from mortal sin, s/he must make a good Confession, which would include repenting of the disobedience to the Church. But if the person does that, the excommunication can be lifted! Problem solved.

People who are in open and willful rebellion against the Jesus’ Church are in mortal sin whether the Church actually excommunicates them or not (and, these days, She rarely does). But, either way, this sin must be repented for the person to avoid hellfire.

 

[Holy_Crucifix]

Holy Crucifix;4350693:

Firstly, I think you simplify sinlessness. It is so easy to sin, it only takes a single thought to deserve

Hell. God’s grace is manifold, but, I think it is nessasary to stress human sinfullness.

I don’t think you’ve thought that one through. An excommunicate is guilty of at least one mortal sin: serious open and willful disobedience of the Church. If a person wishes to gain absolution from mortal sin, s/he must make a good Confession, which would include repenting of the disobedience to the Church. But if the person does that, the excommunication can be lifted! Problem solved.

You would assume such? Not all excommunicates have been justly expelled. The world has many secrets, Christ’s very own Church’s sin is not one of them.

Secondly, I still don’t believe you’ve answered my question, “Why can mortal sin not be purified in Purgatory?”

 

[DavidFilmer]

You would assume such? Not all excommunicates have been justly expelled. The world has many secrets, Christ’s very own Church’s sin is not one of them.

Sorry, I have no idea what that means. If an excommunicate makes a good Confession, the excommunication can (and will be) lifted. Sometimes the excommunication is “reserved” to a particular authority (a bishop or Pope, meaning only that authority can lift it) but this is an easy matter which is well established in Canon Law.

The purpose of excommunication is a last-resort effort to bring a rebel back into the sheepfold. It would be counter-productive for the Church to refuse to admit the repentant rebel.

But even if the person made a good Confession but suddenly died (before the excommunication could be lifted), the person would still be cleared of any mortal sins and thus not be consigned to hell. Excommunication is a physical state, not a spiritual state.

Secondly, I still don’t believe you’ve answered my question, “Why can mortal sin not be purified in Purgatory?”

Because if mortal sin could be purified in Purgatory, there would be no hell (because mortal sin the only thing that can possibly consign us to hell). And Jesus (and the Church) clearly teach that there IS a hell.

If we could purify BOTH venial AND mortal sins in Purgatory then hell would not exist (or, more strictly speaking, it would be impossible for anyone to go there - which is kinda silly).

 

[Holy_Crucifix]

All the idea was, not all excommunicates were justifully expelled. Thus, they were free of sin, as so far as this example goes.

The idea behind this was asking how this understanding of mortal sin reconciles with other Christians, outside the Church. Many of them are openly unwilling to be part of this community. This, as far as I can tell, is just as bad as being an excommunicate, for they were in fact never in the Church’s fold. So if an excommunicate is going to Hell fire, it would be a reasonable conclusion that Protestants do also, this I would, as far as the general blanket term goes, disagree with.

 

[DavidFilmer]

This, as far as I can tell, is just as bad as being an excommunicate, for they were in fact never in the Church’s fold.

This is getting pretty far off-topic for this thread. I suggest you look into the Catholic teaching of “invincible ignorance,” which covers the situation of those who have never accepted the full authority and teaching of the Catholic Church (I believe there’s an active thread on invincible ignorance at the moment). Or feel free to open up a new thread to explore your questions in this regard.

 

[Holy_Crucifix]

This is true, thank you for your time. It is true, the topic, because of my ignorance would go off topic, but, for the moment my questions have been answered. Thank you.

 

[widelight]

Great post of all. David is posting interestngly a position I was looking for explanations…the soul can be corrected in ones life from all egoism. But what I am uncomfortable is ONLY three from all catholic population from history had achieved that state…? Anyway only a few. I see the purification more to a point of view of jewish misticim (Kabbalah etc) but is interesting to know that it exist also in the catholic church. I think that is what Jesus did, he was borned human and god purified his soul thru studies and working spiritually with others and the second coming is only the purification and correction of all humanity starting from the ones who beleive in him and have faith… Also, I see also that this view can contradict some of the beleives from the church (as a religion with a creed) regarding resurrection and encarnation, relating more to reencarnation. I will check those books that david mentioned here…anyway thank you.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But what I am uncomfortable is ONLY three from all catholic population from history had achieved that state…?

I gave three specific examples, but many more people have achieved full earthly perfection. In fact, St. Thérèse of Lisieux taught that perfection is NOT limited to great heroic nuns or monks, but can be achieved by everyday people living everyday lives. This teaching is called the “Little Way” (and Thérèse was named a Doctor of the Church because of it).