What is an "independent" Catholic Church?

[Will_S]

its my understanding that prior to Ecclesia Dea bishops would sometimes recognize and give permission to certain priests to serve in the diocese without establishing a formal relationship with them nor recognizing their churches as formally part of the dioceses.

I don’t think that actually happened. Independent chapels were always independent.
However back in the 70s there were some bishops who incardinated SSPX priests into their dioceses for a while.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No it’s not. Independent Catholic chapels generally have a validly ordained priest and valid sacraments, and they generally believe Catholic doctrine.

Some of them don’t believe there is currently a validly elected Pope, but others don’t believe that and are just leftover remnants of the time in which the Traditional Mass was unjustly and cruelly suppressed.

So they do have problems, yes, and they should reconcile with their local bishops and be regularized, yes. But they are not protestants.

Thus Protestants, they’re protesting the Pope and Vatican II

 

[Deacon_Avi]

I went to the local Roman Catholic Archdiocese offices and specifically asked about the Old Catholic Cathedral and their validity. They told me in no uncertain terms that Old Catholic orders and sacraments are VALID. The Bishop at the cathedral has the power to confer faculties on the Old Catholic priests. They use the Tridentine Mass. They also have a Spanish Mass. They also have two serving Roman Catholic priests. Nowhere on their sign or in their publications do they use the term “independent”.

I also found out that the Old Catholic Church dates to the 7th Century and is NOT a recent innovation. Many splinter groups fell away from the Old Catholic Church in the 1970s and became independent. The Polish National Catholic Church is Old Catholic in origin and broke away from Rome because of legal ownership of church properties, however the PNCC also has valid orders and sacraments.

I find it hard to believe that the local Roman Catholic Archdiocese doesn’t know what it’s talking about concerning the Old Catholic Church. Also, Old Catholic priests serve in Roman Catholic parishes. I know this as a fact. I know one Monsignor who has an Old Catholic background and serves in a Roman Catholic church.

 

[Corki]

I went to the local Roman Catholic Archdiocese offices and specifically asked about the Old Catholic Cathedral and their validity. They told me in no uncertain terms that Old Catholic orders and sacraments are VALID. The Bishop at the cathedral has the power to confer faculties on the Old Catholic priests. They use the Tridentine Mass. They also have a Spanish Mass. They also have two serving Roman Catholic priests. Nowhere on their sign or in their publications do they use the term “independent”.

I also found out that the Old Catholic Church dates to the 7th Century and is NOT a recent innovation. Many splinter groups fell away from the Old Catholic Church in the 1970s and became independent. The Polish National Catholic Church is Old Catholic in origin and broke away from Rome because of legal ownership of church properties, however the PNCC also has valid orders and sacraments.

I find it hard to believe that the local Roman Catholic Archdiocese doesn’t know what it’s talking about concerning the Old Catholic Church. Also, Old Catholic priests serve in Roman Catholic parishes. I know this as a fact. I know one Monsignor who has an Old Catholic background and serves in a Roman Catholic church.

1. The Old Catholic church dates to the 1870s.
2. Many Old Catholic priests do have vaild orders and can validly celebrate the Sacraments. However, Confession requires BOTH valid orders and faculties from the Bishop. Old Catholic priests do not have faculties from the Bishop to hear Confessions so Catholic confessions they hear would be invalid except in the case of impending death.
3. A priest with an “Old Catholic background” could serve in a Catholic parish AFTER he has been received into full communion with the Church.

 

[Deacon_Avi]

The Roman Catholic Church maintains that the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law, specifically Canon 844 §2 (which allows Roman Catholics to receive the sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in cases of “necessity or [when] genuine spiritual advantage commends it”) permits Roman Catholics to receive the sacraments from Old Catholic clergy as well Eastern Orthodox clergy.

Also, since Old Catholic churches share a valid line of apostolic succession from both the Russian Orthodox Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church (Malankara) they are included in the Dominus Iesus document. The Old Catholic church also has another valid apostolic line of succession which includes the Roman Catholic Cardinal Scripione Rebiba and 13 other Roman Catholic bishops.

Old Catholic Church of North America:

What is “Old Catholic ”?
The Old Catholic Church traces it roots to the 7th century. It was during this time when the church was one and undivided. that the Anglo-Saxon monk St. Willibrord missionized the area of Europe now known as the Netherlands and France.

The name “Old Catholic” began to come into use in 1741 when the Church in Utrecht turned from Roma and began to refer to call themselves as Roman Catholics of the “Old Episcopal Clergy” (Old Catholics). It wasn’t until late 19th century in Europe when over the
refusal to accept Papal Infallibility that the Churches in Europe formally adopted the name “Old Catholic”.

Old Catholic priests and seminarians can be found in Roman Catholic seminaries and organizations in Cuba, Phillipines, Mexico, Dominican Republic, Goa, India, Sri Lanka, Natal, Brazil among others.

 

[Stylites]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Catholic_Churches

 

[Corki]

The Roman Catholic Church maintains that the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law, specifically Canon 844 §2 (which allows Roman Catholics to receive the sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in cases of “necessity or [when] genuine spiritual advantage commends it”) permits Roman Catholics to receive the sacraments from Old Catholic clergy as well Eastern Orthodox clergy.

Let’s be careful about selective quoting - especially from canon law.

What Canon Can. 844 §2 actually says is:

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it,** and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided**, the Christian faithful** for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister **are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-
Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

The situation you have describes is full of the danger of indifferentism - demonstrated by your post. Also, there is no impossibility, in the situation you describe, of a Catholic approaching a Catholic minister.

Also, since Old Catholic churches share a valid line of apostolic succession from both the Russian Orthodox Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church (Malankara) they are included in the Dominus Iesus document. The Old Catholic church also has another valid apostolic line of succession which includes the Roman Catholic Cardinal Scripione Rebiba and 13 other Roman Catholic bishops.

Valid Sacraments is not the same thing as faculties. Also since the Old Catholics have begun to ordain women, it is certain that not all of their priests have valid orders.

Old Catholic priests and seminarians can be found in Roman Catholic seminaries and organizations in Cuba, Phillipines, Mexico, Dominican Republic, Goa, India, Sri Lanka, Natal, Brazil among others

This means nothing. Non-catholics often study and take classes at Catholic seminaries and vice versa.

 

[Deacon_Avi]

I will say this once again… The ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCHDIOCESE LOCALLY told me that the Bishop confers faculties upon Old Catholic priests serving in the Old Catholic cathedral. The ROMAN CATHOLIC office was the one that quoted Canon Law to me. The ROMAN CATHOLIC priest at my parish told me that ALL OLD CATHOLIC orders and sacraments are VALID. My priest checked with the Archdiocese.

Sixty percent of all Old Catholic churches left the See of Utrecht (including the Polish National Catholic Church) after the See decided to ordain women and participate in same-sex marriages.

As far as the Roman Catholic Canon Law 844 §2 is concerned, I was told by the Archdiocese that Old Catholic and Eastern Orthodox clergy can minister to Roman Catholics. I was specifically told by the Archdiocese office that Old Catholics are considered CATHOLIC.

 

[adrift]

What is “Old Catholic ”?
The Old Catholic Church traces it roots to the 7th century. It was during this time when the church was one and undivided. that the Anglo-Saxon monk St. Willibrord missionized the area of Europe now known as the Netherlands and France.

The name “Old Catholic” began to come into use in 1741 when the Church in Utrecht turned from Roma and began to refer to call themselves as Roman Catholics of the “Old Episcopal Clergy” (Old Catholics). It wasn’t until late 19th century in Europe when over the
refusal to accept Papal Infallibility that the Churches in Europe formally adopted the name “Old Catholic”.

Old Catholic priests and seminarians can be found in Roman Catholic seminaries and organizations in Cuba, Phillipines, Mexico, Dominican Republic, Goa, India, Sri Lanka, Natal, Brazil among others.

When quoting you should give a source.

 

[adrift]

I will say this once again… The ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCH LOCALLY told me that the Bishop confers faculties upon Old Catholic priests serving in the Old Catholic cathedral. The ROMAN CATHOLIC office was the one that quoted Canon Law to me. The ROMAN CATHOLIC priest at my parish told me that ALL OLD CATHOLIC orders and sacraments are VALID. My priest checked with the Archdiocese.

Sixty percent of all Old Catholic churches left the See of Utrecht (including the Polish National Catholic Church) after the See decided to ordain women and participate in same-sex marriages.

As far as the Roman Catholic Canon Law 844 §2 is concerned, I was told by the Archdiocese that Old Catholic and Eastern Orthodox clergy can minister to Roman Catholics. I was specifically told by the Archdiocese office that Old Catholics are considered CATHOLIC.

What Bishop? They are not considered in union with the Pope. I believe you misunderstood the Diocese which Diocese are you referring to?

 

[King_M]

Independent Catholic Church means independent of Peter and his successors

. It means trouble, and I reckon it means you need to go to confession in your own parish just to be sure as the sacraments are unlikely to be valid at such a 'place.

---

No it does’t !!!..You are mistaken…The independent whos ay’s the Latin Mass, believes in the Pope. The Sacraments are valid and contrary to ignorant beliefs all the Sacraments are the same as before the Second Vat, which is invalid. Smart priests though.!!!..even if he and the ? arch-bishop are not united in , which is known as incardination. How can it not be ? Just because a Pastoral council went Prtotestant and True believers , who KNOW their faith, stick with a valid priest not a “presider.” He is not a SEDE. They don’t profess that Benedict is valid !..The independent does. If not he joins the Sede’s The independent loses his FRINGE benefits and spreads the truth at the expense of his livlihood only. They would like you to believe a sexual abuser say’s a valid mass (lower case on purpose ) the only difference is the True peiest doesn’t say the N.O. , thank God and he won’t unite with the bishop in order to assure he holds title to his chapel so as not to have it "sacked’…Look at all the beautiful churches which have been sold to pay off the debt due to suits for immoral behavior of priests…who you think are priests !,…They use their sexuality as a cover. There is only ONE TRUE MASS !!! Don’t believe recent converts, obviously ignorant of the history of the faith…
Millions of $'s dollars amd beautiful chuches are now being destroyed or sold to be condominiums. The Traditional priest say’s the ancient rite just as has been done for hundreds of years…that is until the invalid N. O. was foisted on unlearned ans gullable people. Read your church history for the truth… It all started withe a Guitar, clowns, hand shaking and God knows what else…You’re being hoodwinked !..I guess I’ll get anither 5 demerits…Well , I did ask to be taken off the list, and wasn’t. I’ll just keep spreading the truth and hope people come to their senses and don’t follow the way to perdition…

 

[Corki]

I will say this once again… The ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCHDIOCESE LOCALLY told me that the Bishop confers faculties upon Old Catholic priests serving in the Old Catholic cathedral. The ROMAN CATHOLIC office was the one that quoted Canon Law to me. The ROMAN CATHOLIC priest at my parish told me that ALL OLD CATHOLIC orders and sacraments are VALID. My priest checked with the Archdiocese.

As far as the Roman Catholic Canon Law 844 §2 is concerned, I was told by the Archdiocese that Old Catholic and Eastern Orthodox clergy can minister to Roman Catholics. I was specifically told by the Archdiocese office that Old Catholics are considered CATHOLIC.

I am sorry. I just do not believe this. Please show me where a Bishop has the authority to grant faculties to priests who are not members of the Church. The Old Catholic Church is a church in schism.

Sixty percent of all Old Catholic churches left the See of Utrecht (including the Polish National Catholic Church) after the See decided to ordain women and participate in same-sex marriages.

However, the Old Catholic Church’s ordination of women and blessing of same-sex marriages has become a hindrance to relations between Rome and Utrecht. These issues also caused the Polish National Catholic Church to leave the Union of Utrecht.

This is Wikipedia, not always accurate but it’s hard to find definitive sources on the Old Catholics.

So are you Old Catholic or Polish National Catholic?

Because of this approach, Old Catholics hold an open view to most issues, including the role of women in the Church, the role of married people within ordained ministry, the morality of same sex relationships, the use of one’s conscience when deciding to use artificial contraception, and liturgical reforms such as open communion (because no human can presume to exclude any Christian from communion).

This is also from Wikipedia. A priest holding these beliefs would not be consistent with Catholicism. I can’t imagine a Bishop giving faculties to a priest who professes these beliefs, even if he could, which I don’t think he can.

 

[King_M]

I went to a new Roman Catholic Church near my home,(one) because in about 30 years I had never stepped in it and I was curious,two, because I found their confession times convenient.
In some ways, it was different than the one I attend regularly.When I came out I looked again at the sign and saw it said “independent” Catholic Church.
What does that mean?I hope my confession is valid.

Be careful of uneducated biased list members. They know not of what they speak…Think
of it this way. V2 came along as a “PASTORAL COUNCIL”…It was never meant to do away withe the sacred Mass of all times…If you believe they were letting in the fresh air , I’ve got a bridge for sale…They invited members of Prorwstant and Jewish faiths also to attend. WHY is the question. The Mass of Perpeturity was NEVER supposed to be changed. They pulled a slick Wlly and won the approval of the Prots…Imagine that. Now the N.O. service is just like the Prots…The Ecumenism was used deiously and now after all these years we have a prsider who , if young had actually never been ordained…He is not of the true Fait. It’s no skin off my nose who these people chiuck and jive with at the mass (lower case)…I put up with it out of ignorance and have a very good background of the circumstances…There never was a an edict for women not to wear a head dress…It was siad at one of the news gatherings and they went with it…That is a fact…At the N.O. I wemt to before I left in disgust, the presider sat in a lofty chair while the table was
ow turned ariund instead of facing east…Inexperienced lay people…who told me they never had their hands consecrated , so as to distribute the host…I was taught NEVER touch the host and never chew it…We had communicabts chewing gu and talking to each other on their way uo to get the host…Morning services were bad also…We had a huge ugly modernistic worship place abd “MUSAC” piped in instead of sacred nusic. Normally the people sitting beghind us would come back grom getting the host…no prayers offeres and discuss for 10 minutes where to go to dinner…This was a Sat, night. We had women altar girls…One tine I was at a bible class ans a women , very boldly asked the prsider…
"Hey, if it’s alright for you to call me Barbara , why can’t I call you Bob?..Nice…Two weeks later Bob was found in bed with another nale communicant and he wasn’t the last…Converts…My hat is off to you seeking spiritual nouishment BUT with due respect…You don’t know the ONE TRUE Cathic gaith !..God help you and others…The Independent is BRAVE and dedicated and does recognize the POPE…Even though he is a heritic…Rad some more honest Catholic books…My Independent pries is valis but just not stuopid enough to hand ove our beautiful chaple wit stained glass windows as a peace offering for the arc-bishop…I have no compunction of being dumped from the list…BUT please STUDY …Read Piua th Xth and his predecessors not the confab of Popes since Pius th Xii…Strong in my covictions and I am comfortable in my choice…Good Luck

 

[King_M]

Many of the claim that they are in communion with the Pope, the one in our town even claims that Blessed Pope John II blessed his shrine. They are independent they are not in communion with the diocese, and for this reason they have no jurisdiction, and their confessions and witnessing of marriages are invalid. Except for special organizations like the Opus Dei, there is no communion with Rome w/o the diocese.

As for our on the archdiocese asked for 7 years him to show his credential (almost certainly he was validly ordained in India). He did not complained, he is officially suspended. He claims some connection with the CMRI.

If a church which claims to be catholic is not listed on the homepage of the diocese it is most likely not Catholic: i.e.in communion with the Church.

BULL !!! You don’t know what you’re talking about…Study the early religion before you make any more ignorant statements…You couldn’t be farther from the truth. It’s just the opposite. If we practiced the Traditional Mass for all those years…it’s right now. Our priest has more guts than any follower of the limp wristed , no conviction presiders of the N
The ones that went along with the NEW way were afraid to make a stand amd lose their security when it was easier to go along with all of the spineless, faithless My gosh…where will I live and retire to ?..What does it matter. God will take care of you…The CMRI is the orfer that does not recognize the Pope…Their Mass is valid though…Their lineage come from a valid line …If the church is not listed it is more than likely True Catholic and not watered down Protestant “feel gooders” that don’t know their faith and that includedsthe Moderator…Be careful who you follow. A monger doesn’t ,ake him correct…Why forbid a discussion about the the N.O. and the Tridentine Mass…???

 

[MarkThompson]

BULL !!! You don’t know what you’re talking about…Study the early religion before you make any more ignorant statements…You couldn’t be farther from the truth. It’s just the opposite. If we practiced the Traditional Mass for all those years…it’s right now. Our priest has more guts than any follower of the limp wristed , no conviction presiders of the N
The ones that went along with the NEW way were afraid to make a stand amd lose their security when it was easier to go along with all of the spineless, faithless My gosh…where will I live and retire to ?..What does it matter. God will take care of you…The CMRI is the orfer that does not recognize the Pope…Their Mass is valid though…Their lineage come from a valid line …If the church is not listed it is more than likely True Catholic and not watered down Protestant “feel gooders” that don’t know their faith and that includedsthe Moderator…Be careful who you follow. A monger doesn’t ,ake him correct…Why forbid a discussion about the the N.O. and the Tridentine Mass…???

Could you please bring up a few more “angry trad” tropes? I have distributed bingo cards with all of them listed, but I still need you to hit N-27 or O-19 for my bingo. Thanks in advance!

 

[thistle]

BULL !!! You don’t know what you’re talking about…Study the early religion before you make any more ignorant statements…You couldn’t be farther from the truth. It’s just the opposite. If we practiced the Traditional Mass for all those years…it’s right now. Our priest has more guts than any follower of the limp wristed , no conviction presiders of the N
The ones that went along with the NEW way were afraid to make a stand amd lose their security when it was easier to go along with all of the spineless, faithless My gosh…where will I live and retire to ?..What does it matter. God will take care of you…The CMRI is the orfer that does not recognize the Pope…Their Mass is valid though…Their lineage come from a valid line …If the church is not listed it is more than likely True Catholic and not watered down Protestant “feel gooders” that don’t know their faith and that includedsthe Moderator…Be careful who you follow. A monger doesn’t ,ake him correct…Why forbid a discussion about the the N.O. and the Tridentine Mass…???

I guess we now know why you are suspended!

 

[Stylites]

I guess we now know why you are suspended!

Well, it takes a lot of humility for someone to claim he is right and the Roman Catholic Church and her 1.2 billion members are all wrong and heretical.

.

 

[Will_S]

Well, it takes a lot of humility for someone to claim he is right and the Roman Catholic Church and her 1.2 billion members are all wrong and heretical.

There is a lot that happens at average Catholic parishes throughout the world that is not really ideal or recommended by the Church. Instead of transforming the world, Catholics have let themselves be transformed by the world. It is not surprising that some people refuse to accept that and simply walk out and go elsewhere, whether it be FSSP parish, SSPX chapel, or to an independent priest saying Mass in someone’s basement.

And though people who leave the Church over the nonsense that all to often occurs are certainly culpable, so are those who started and who continue the nonsense.

 

[theistgal]

I went to the local Roman Catholic Archdiocese offices and specifically asked about the Old Catholic Cathedral and their validity. They told me in no uncertain terms that Old Catholic orders and sacraments are VALID. The Bishop at the cathedral has the power to confer faculties on the Old Catholic priests. They use the Tridentine Mass. They also have a Spanish Mass. They also have two serving Roman Catholic priests. Nowhere on their sign or in their publications do they use the term “independent”.

Deacon Avi, I believe you (and/or your local R.C. Archdiocese offices) are seriously confused. The “Old Catholic Church” is a Protestant denomination that left the Catholic Church in the 1870’s in protest of Vatican I’s declaration of papal infallibility. It is simply not true that ANY current Roman Catholic bishop has ANY authority over them - they are a completely separate church and would be VERY unlikely to allow that!

They do use a liturgy that is similar to the Tridentine Mass. However, they do not share the same doctrinal beliefs as the Roman Catholic Church - for example, they reject transubstantiation; ordain women (since 1994) and allow contraception - (hardly “traditional Catholic” beliefs!) so there is no way their sacraments could be considered valid.

I suspect you and/or your R.C. official are using the term “old Catholic” with a small “o” as another way of describing “traditionalist Catholics” who use the old (aka Tridentine) Mass. In which case, the rest of your statement may be true.

 

[pinkpercolator]

If I am right. Those churches do not accept the pope. I think last pope they accepted was Pope Pius something something. They do not accept anything Vatican 2. I attended one of them churches once. Did not do Communion or Confession there. Because I thought it might be a sin or not be valid. But went to see how they celebrate mass. As a friend invited me. I myself don’t understand them.