What is antisemitism?

[Psalms62]

Yes, of course. There is a large portion of Israeli Jews opposed to the settlements.

but you didn’t mention this! The way I read your post was as if you were placing the blame on everyone. We all have our own personal opinions and not all groups agree with one another. My understanding to all of this and from a strict Orthodox point of view was that they are waiting for the Messiah to come and then those issues will be settled and not prior. Including the rebuilding of the third temple - much will have to change. How (again) even though, we are discussing antisemitism within (?) or outside of the U.S, correct? Well, as they say, who comes into this country and how they perceive “cultural” identity from where they use to live - it will take time to be integrated? Even in a Orthodox frame of mind. The U.S has many cultural background from all over the world some attitudes are good while others, and depending on the beliefs (ooops), can be extremely left sided (??) - I hope that’s the word I needed to use?

Anyway, upbringing or even religion or society beliefs (even) can range from mild to extreme within the United States. Making any Changes in one’s attitude doesn’t happen overnight. I remember so lonnnng ago - some beliefs were shared from the older generation but as I remember - from a family member, that was long ago and it isn’t that way anymore. People within a particular ethnic society can base how strict the religious codes, or even civil laws by state or country, can be by taking action either against a person/people or for enforcing them on behalf of one’s belief. Our laws toward those who harbor ill feelings coming over can be very strong.

Just a reminder, we are discussing antisemitism in the context of US society.

So I do think we can discuss other places of origin when writing about antisemitic since some of those emotions and feelings where transported into this country. i grew up in a very ethnic neighborhood and loved every minute of it. The love can be strong as can the differences but once you are apart of the lifestyle, you are apart of the family. People who come from the Middle East care tremendously and have a open opinion (when well taught and educated) you can listen to them for hours talking in the kitchen about the politics - so you can imagine the Christian side of life in those countries. Like Europe, politics is big news and keeping one up to date is a survival tool.

 

[Psalms62]

And unfortunately, the rules for nations that occupy lands are stricter and under more scrutiny than the rules for how governments can treat their own citizens.

in order to adapt to the new government and how they want society to live up to the standards. I had a friend, he was a physics major in college and from Turkey - well educate and fun to be around, enjoyed listening to his conversation with others at the coffee table. People who lived or came from the Middle East have a amazing rate of education in politics when they talk to other with a similar background or even from other countries. I sat for hours not realizing the time, it was the best education I had. You know, at the end of “his” graduation commencement - the teacher actually walked up to him as a student and thanked him for being in his class. This man accepted the compliment with much humility and honor.

 

[OneSheep]

The way I read your post was as if you were placing the blame on everyone.

My apologies for the way it was presented. No blame intended.

i grew up in a very ethnic neighborhood and loved every minute of it.

I can imagine that such would be the case, and the tendency would be to even more see an “us” and a “them” when the neighborhood is surrounded by a different culture. No doubt, though the ghettos in Germany were poor, the people there had a sense of security “being around their own”, and since there was some persecution from indigenous Germans, there was likely a bit of resentment in both directions.

What do you think of this: In American society it is most acceptable to see the Nazis themselves as evil, and to see those people bigoted against Jews as evil. Of course, it is unacceptable to hate anyone, so people hold these two in tension, “The Nazis are evil, but I don’t hate them”.

There is a blindness in this. Hatred is this: “intense dislike or ill will”. Is there a more intense way of describing extreme dislike than saying that a person is evil? Perhaps there is, but use of the word “evil” or “bad”, (anything negative) communicates hate, or if nothing else incites hatred.

In other words, it is socially acceptable in America to hate the haters, but to deny one’s hatred. Indeed, to suggest that we are to forgive people who hate, to forgive people who are anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anything like that is totally unacceptable in American society. On the other hand, condemning, judging such people is totally acceptable.

But look at what Jesus said: “Do not judge” and “If you hold anything against anyone, forgive them”.

One of the biggest hesitations to Jesus’ words are the equating of forgiveness and acquittal. It is not. Forgiveness is forgiveness from the heart.

What do you think?

 

[niceatheist]

I think your fundamental problem is that you seem to hold that all prejudices are wrong. I take no such view. I can sit comfortably with the notion that “Nazis are evil” and “I want to see Nazism stamped out.” The latter is not equivalent to the former. It was not unjust for the Allied Powers to wipe Nazi Germany out. Perhaps some of the methods could be viewed as unjust (i.e. the firebombing of Dresden), though Total War tends to lead to such acts of mass devastation (General Sherman’s March to the Sea during the US Civil War was the first signal of what an industrialized total war could lead to, and he didn’t even have high-altitude bombers in the mid-1800s). But overall, the defeat of Nazi Germany, the liberation of Europe and the liberating of the surviving Jews, Roma and political prisoners that the Nazis had locked up in prison camps with the intent to either kill quickly or kill slowly, was objectively a good thing, as was hanging or imprisoning as many Nazis as could be found who had some share of the responsibility for the unjust war on Germany’s neighbors and the crimes against humanity that the regime committed against peoples under its control.

That situations can be complex, and lines of responsibility and blame can be hard to draw, doesn’t somehow render the Nazis less evil. It does mean, for instance in the Nazis’ expansionist policies, that the Allies likely played a part in the rise of Hitler. Certainly the Treaty of Versailles itself was unjust at least in part; in that it basically placed all the blame for WWI on the shoulders of the Central Powers, and in particular on Germany (seeing as the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires were already in some state of collapse even at the start of the war). But Germany was in fact rather well treated by the Allies in the interwar period; the Weimar Republic received a great deal of credit from Allied sources, and in particular from the Americans, to the point that some Brits actually complained that the defeated belligerent was getting easier repayment terms from American banks than Allied nations.

 

[OneSheep]

I think your fundamental problem

You are believing that I have a fundamental problem.

you seem to hold that all prejudices are wrong.

Actually, this is not the case. I prejudge all people as beautiful creatures, all loved by God. I do hope and pray that modern Nazis would see all people the same way, as well as those who hate those who hate. Through understanding and forgiveness, it happens. The more one learns and understands about a person, the more one can see the other’s beauty.

I can sit comfortably with the notion that “Nazis are evil”

When you keep in mind that Nazis felt the same way about Jews and others, are you still comfortable? If so, is it because you are certain of your own righteousness, as they are/were?

I once had a long talk with a local Rabbi about Palestine, and we both agreed that there are no “evil people”. Jesus too, knew what it was to be “counted among the wicked”. (a Gospel reading from passion Sunday)

and “I want to see Nazism stamped out.”

I sit comfortably with that, but I would not do it violently, or use violent language. We would all like to also “stamp out” ISIS/Daesh, but you see the more stomping we do, the more fuel for the desire for justice - against stampers. So while military action is sometimes necessary, it is forgiveness and reconciliation that are key for long term solutions.

the liberation of Europe and the liberating of the surviving Jews, Roma and political prisoners that the Nazis had locked up in prison camps with the intent to either kill quickly or kill slowly, was objectively a good thing

Yes, it was a great deed to free the persecuted!

as was hanging or imprisoning as many Nazis as could be found who had some share of the responsibility for the unjust war on Germany’s neighbors and the crimes against humanity

I take it that you are a proponent of the death penalty. Yes, when we really resent someone, we wish for their destruction. This is the human psychology I am talking about. We desire to punish the evildoers, and all empathy has been blocked. We are not inclined to forgive, at least not initially.

But yes, forgiveness does not preclude a society’s need to carry out justice. Desire to punish/carry out justice serves a purpose, that is why it is a beautiful part of human and chimpanzee nature. Punishment motivates cooperation. The death penalty does not meet the Catholic definition for the purpose of punishment.

 

[OneSheep]

That situations can be complex, and lines of responsibility and blame can be hard to draw…

If I may cut in at this point, because there are some distinctions to be made that are very important. Blame does no good in the long run, and as Christians we are called to understand and forgive, not to hang onto negative feelings/blame. This is not to say, however, that people are not liable for their sins, not to be held accountable for the harm they have done to others. I know that not all atheists believe in hanging onto blame…

When we hold a person or persons actions against their dignity or value, that is blame. To contrast, when we are saying a certain crime is attributed to the actions of this person, and this penalty is to be meted, then this can be done without any blame whatsoever. Justices have to constantly watch this in themselves, right, that they are looking objectively when giving a sentence, not being swayed by their resentment? Punishment, according to the CCC, has the purpose of changing the convict’s ways for the better, it is supposed to be helpful.

BTW: Did you see post 504?

 

[OneSheep]

Coming out of prayer this morning, I am inspired by this quote by Fr. Anthony de Mello to write something that you are not going to hear from clergy, because it is too controversial, and for the most part they will probably be as taken aback as you are. Let it stir you.

HOW TO UNDERSTAND THE NAZIS

First, what has the Western world done for the past 8 decades? That is, what have righteous people done? We have condemned the Nazis, called them evil. What good has it done? Well, it has done a great deal of good. Hopefully, it has all of us paying attention when hate arises within us. However, what has been the expense? We have upheld condemnation, yes, hatred, of a group of people, the Nazis. In so doing, we uphold condemnation as something to maintain.

Is this what Jesus wants us to do? What did Jesus do?

REFLECTION ON PASSION SUNDAY: WHAT JESUS DID

Take some time to reflect on what you remember of the faces of people in concentration camps. Think of a face, reflect on it, empathize with the face of the Jewish, Roma, all the persecuted. Do you see Jesus there, in those faces? If you do not, keep looking! Don’t keep reading until you do. Find an online image if it helps. Stand among the Jewish, Roma, those persecuted.

Now, see the face of Jesus on the cross. What did He do? He suffered, and the suffering of Jews and others in the camps was also His suffering. Now, bring yourself back to passion Sunday. What did you say? “Crucify him!” You are given the opportunity to be in the shoes of those who condemned Jesus! And what did Jesus do? He stood among those who condemned Him. He understood. His example is invitation, an invitation to stand among the persecutors, to stand among the Nazis. And what did Jesus do, standing among those who demanded His torture and death? He understood why they were doing what they were doing, not judging them. Look back at the quote I linked from Anthony de Mello. Jesus understood, and forgave.

Understanding and forgiving is not pardoning! Understanding is turning on the light of awareness; forgiving is forgiveness from the heart. We are to hold everyone accountable for the hurt they have caused and carry out punishment - for the purpose of “redressing the disorder” in the sinner. We are not to refrain from understanding and forgiving just because we think it is somehow immoral to do so!

Continued…

 

[OneSheep]

UNDERSTANDING - IN PRACTICE

Stand among the crowd who crucified Jesus. See their faces. Do they know what they are doing? Absolutely not. They did not know what they were doing at many levels. First of all, they did not see His infinite value. Now, stand among the guards, the wardens, the people crucifying those in concentration camps. Did they see the infinite value of the people suffering there? Absolutely not! No, like the crowd crucifying Jesus, they were blinded by resentment, by fear, by hatred. Want to turn on the light of awareness? Investigate all the levels of what the crowd and the guards did not know in themselves, in yourself. Use your own resentment to guide you to the depths of your subconscious. A very wise priest asked me to reflect on “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand”.

It is time to replace judging and condemnation with understanding and forgiveness. It is time to forgive the Nazis, it is time to forgive those who hate! You want to hang onto condemning those who hate? Is hanging on to condemnation of anyone what Jesus calls us to? It is natural to hate/condemn those who do great evil, but Jesus calls us to the supernatural.

It is time to start a new motion, a motion of forgiveness; it is time to be the reconciliation we want to happen.

 

[niceatheist]

I would recommend you read the introductory chapters to Churchill’s History of the Second World War. He goes into great detail as to the rise of Nazism. He fully accepted that the way the Allies treated Germany at the end of the War, including but not limited to the harshest terms in Versailles, contributed to Hitler’s rise to power. He makes a careful point that the formation of the Weimar Republic, rather than seeking to keep the Hohenzollerns in power in a constitutional monarchy, was a major failing in that it failed to recognize that the Weimar regime would not inspire the confidence and the patriotism of a defeated people. He also makes it clear that National Socialism was Communism’s dirty step-child, that one could not understand Nazism without understanding how Communism’s internationalism (so prevalent in the 1920s and 1930s) was seen by the German right as a direct threat to German independence.

But while acknowledging all these failures among the allies and among the German aristocracy and ruling classes, he does not mince words. Adolf Hitler was the “mad genius” in Churchill’s view, an inevitability built out of German culture, that while previous strongmen like Bismarck were able to restrain and control the militant Prussian ethic of a united Germany, that there was a sickness at the heart of German civilization; with its military overtones, its intense stratification, a longstanding inferiority complex born out of centuries of division and rivalry among German princes (not to mention constant foreign meddling by powers like France), and yes, deep-seated anti-Semitism, where Jews in Europe spent half their time being protected by princes (if only for selfish reasons), and half their time being condemned when it suited rulers to use them as a scapegoat for economic and social upheaval.

I think most of us have forgiven the German people. Almost anyone of any culpability in the Holocaust is dead now, with a few stray ninety-odd year old prison guards all that is left of the Nazi murder machine. But I like to refer to Churchill’s great axiom that prefaced his history of WWII:

“In War: Resolution,
In Defeat: Defiance,
In Victory: Magnanimity
In Peace: Good Will.”

To me that as the most eloquent summing up of what Christian war should be. It encompasses what I think you’re referring to, but it makes it clear that when we are battling the forces of darkness; whether they be the industrialized war machine of a country like Nazi Germany, or even Neo-nazi goons in Charlottesville, our first job is to defeat them, and then we can talk about forgiveness, good will and magnanimity. But crimes must be punished. Civilization itself depends upon that, so while in general I oppose the death penalty, I have no problem with the war crimes trials and punishments at Nuremberg and in Japan at the conclusion of the war.

 

[OneSheep]

I would recommend you read the introductory chapters to Churchill’s History of the Second World War. He goes into great detail as to the rise of Nazism. He fully accepted that the way the Allies treated Germany

Thank you, I’ll put it on my list. You do have some great insights on the historical aspects.

I think most of us have forgiven the German people. Almost anyone of any culpability in the Holocaust is dead now, with a few stray ninety-odd year old prison guards all that is left of the Nazi murder machine.

Perhaps most people have forgiven the German people, but condemning Nazis (and neo-Nazis), people with bigotry against Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asians, Latinos, etc. is standard fare in many settings. Some of those condemnations are upheld in the media, and to some degree in American culture. The most bigoted hate language I ever heard on radio was that against Arabs, and probably most of the listeners thought it was perfectly okay.

In Victory: Magnanimity

Jesus called for victims to be charitable and forgive. If war and victory are the precursors for magnanimity, then where does that put religious zealots? Striving for war and victory? Jesus turns this all upside down. Magnanimity comes from forgiving hearts, victorious or not.

In Peace: Good Will.”

This is unfortunately short-sighted. Good will follows reconciliation. Peace, as an absence or temporary end of war, is only superficial.

 

[OneSheep]

To me that as the most eloquent summing up of what Christian war should be. It encompasses what I think you’re referring to, but it makes it clear that when we are battling the forces of darkness; whether they be the industrialized war machine of a country like Nazi Germany, or even Neo-nazi goons in Charlottesville, our first job is to defeat them

Let’s agree that we have to get things under control.

But see this:

The more you fight darkness, the more real it becomes to you, and the more you exhaust yourself. - Anthony de Mello

We can control those who wish to do harm, yes, but anti-semitism is not going to be defeated by fighting it, by condemning it. Like I said, it helps, in the short term, to condemn, but in the long term it will come again and again unless we replace condemnation with forgiveness. We reap what we sow.

So, if there is “Christian war”, to be truly conscious it is to be only defensive, and only carried out with forgiving hearts. “I hate to do this, but I must defend myself and my loved ones.” We must do all we can to get persecutors under control, but for Good Will and Magnanimity to happen, there has to be a will for mercy, including for those who persecute.

The “forces of darkness” are what we project from within. It does no good to fight what we project, we can understand them and reconcile with them.

our first job is to defeat them

This would be a case of immediate self-defense. Otherwise, any plan to deal with persecutors, in a Christian way, would first involve understanding and forgiving. Then, with forgiving hearts, the answers that do not involve war will come forth. Otherwise, the compulsion to punish drives the desire for war even though diplomacy may yield very good results.

Our nations’ leadership is hot to make war with Iran, for example, but diplomacy would go a long way. Are the leadership of America and Israel seeking reconciliation, or are they seeking the “resolution” through violence? And then, would a victory over Iran create magnanimity? Just how magnanimous are the people of Iraq? Sorry, what Churchill spoke with eloquence was only so much wishful thinking. “Let’s destroy them, and all our problems will be solved.” If we reap destruction, we will sow the same.