What is antisemitism?

[OneSheep]

There’s no mystery to anti-Semitism. It started even before the birth of Christ, probably in the Seleucid Empire, and even by the time of the riots in Alexandria, the seeds of the “disloyal jews” was an active meme.

Are you saying that if antisemitism had not started back then, that it would not be around today, or in pre-WWII history?

Are you resisting the observation that prejudice and bigotry can start in any population at any time, given certain circumstances?

This is not blaming the victim! The victim has no control over what happens in the minds of others, actions that lead to resentment and hatred. The victims are well-meaning and well-intended in all things, as are the persecutors. We can transcend blame. This is what Jesus did.

Jesus said things that were provocative. Is He to blame for his crucifixion? The crowd reacted to His statements. Are they to blame for His crucifixion? Why blame (condemn) anyone? How about, let’s stop blaming and start understanding and forgiving?

Do you see what I’m saying? Blame, in the long run, doesn’t help.

 

[niceatheist]

Then why the Nuremberg trials (and the war crimes trials in Japan)? Some of the people that met their fate on the gallows never personally killed any Jews, and yet leading Nazis were judged and executed or imprisoned.

And I utterly reject the idea that the Nazis were well-intended. The very fact that they kept much of the Holocaust secret even from the German people, and tried in the dying days of the war to hide the extent of their crimes, demonstrates that the Nazi persecution and mass-murder of the Jews didn’t occur as some sort of alternative morality; but rather as an evil and depraved series of acts, building on long standing prejudices but pushing them beyond pogrom and into genocide.

The best description of the Nazi regime I can think of was that it was a criminal enterprise. The leading Nazis, even in the old SA days, were unrepentant anti-Semites. Hitler made no secret of his intentions; the only debate was the manner of execution; to exile the Jews, or failing the meaningful ability to do that, to murder every single one of them within the territory controlled by Europe. There’s no way to describe that as a justifiable act, or to assert some sort of misplaced good intent on the part of people like Hitler and Himmler. They were evil men, bent on an evil ideology that was born in part out of the sin of anti-Semitism that had fermented in Europe’s DNA for two thousand years.

These men planned and carried out the murder of six million Jews; men, women, children, babies. They knew what they were doing would be viewed by the rest of the world as an atrocity of unbelievable proportions. They didn’t care, because for much of the time they were in power, they thought they’d win, that they’d be the victors, and that no one would ever stand in judgment of their crimes. They were the ultimate nihilists; men who truly believed that by the wave of a pen, they could make mass murder into a justifiable act.

And the fact is that most European Jews didn’t lead communal cloistered existences, any more than any other “immigrant” (though it’s hardly a word to describe people that had lived in areas of Europe for centuries) would. In Germany and Austro-Hungary in the 19th and early 20th century, many were celebrated citizens; artists, teachers, musicians, philosophers. Jewish culture has never been a monolith filled with bearded Levites plotting. Were there cloistered groups? Absolutely. In some cases, by longstanding choice, but even in the earliest Jewish diasporas before the destruction of the Temple, there were many Jews who lived fairly open lives, worked with gentiles, and were part of their communities.

Everything you seem to know about Jews in Europe seems itself derived from the anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews being the “other”.

 

[OneSheep]

Good morning Mr. (Ms?) Nice,

Then why the Nuremberg trials (and the war crimes trials in Japan)? Some of the people that met their fate on the gallows never personally killed any Jews, and yet leading Nazis were judged and executed or imprisoned.

We all have the human desire to punish wrongdoing. It serves a purpose, to motivate people to do good and cooperate with society. Chimpanzees have the same innate desire. However, the death penalty serves no purpose in correcting the executed person’s behavior.

And I utterly reject the idea that the Nazis were well-intended. The very fact that they kept much of the Holocaust secret even from the German people, and tried in the dying days of the war to hide the extent of their crimes…

Okay, this is a philosophy forum. Let’s investigate: what was going on in the minds of the Nazis who hid their crimes from the populace? What were they thinking?

…to murder every single one of them within the territory controlled by Europe. There’s no way to describe that as a justifiable act, or to assert some sort of misplaced good intent on the part of people like Hitler and Himmler. They were evil men…

To clarify, when you say “evil men”, do you mean “people of infinite value, like all people, but doers of horrendous evil?” Or do you mean that they have an inherent disvalue?

Justice is in the eye of the beholder for the most part. I’m not promoting relativism, just observing. Where I live, it is unjust for a gang member to leave a gang, and “justice” lies in killing the person who leaves. Our Church has a better sense of justice; we have some faith that the Spirit guides us. (individuals within the Church, however, are capable of extreme misguidance!)

They didn’t care, because for much of the time they were in power, they thought they’d win, that they’d be the victors, and that no one would ever stand in judgment of their crimes.

Okay, so would you say they were thinking, “We don’t care about the Jews, they are worthless scum (disposable, etc., a negative affect) and no one will ever prosecute us because we are going to win this war and remain in power”. Does that describe what you think they were reasoning?

And the fact is that most European Jews didn’t lead communal cloistered existences

They were shunned by many, so found some comfort in living together in neighborhoods, just as minorities still do today. Are you familiar with the origin of the word “ghetto”?

 

[OneSheep]

there were many Jews who lived fairly open lives, worked with gentiles, and were part of their communities.

Yes, just as there are plenty of minorities/immigrants living and working alongside white people here in America. The electorate currently appears to be voting for people who are not inclined to accept these people, unfortunately.

Look, antisemitism is extremely important, but are you coming from the Trump position, calling the Democrats “antisemitic” because they condemned all racism instead of prejudice against only Jewish people?

Everything you seem to know about Jews in Europe seems itself derived from the anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews being the “other”.

While you were gone, you missed out on my conversation with Rabbi. Yes, “other” is the observed ingroup/outgroup psychological phenomenon.

On that note, on “On Point” (NPR) yesterday, there was great discussion about the latest attack on Rep. Omar; part of the conversation included Rep. Andrew Levin, who defended her. He used the word “othering” to describe what was being tweeted by Trump and headlined in the New York Post.

I am Catholic. Are we one, or am I “other” to you? As it is, when I receive Eucharist during mass, I include the entire human race in my “communion”. God incarnate exists in every one of us.

 

[tafan2]

I think this looks suspiciously like blaming the victim.

This thread has a lot of that. My first post for days on it, I see it hasn’t changed in tone much. A lot of extremely questionable statement wrapped in the flowery garb of forgiveness and understanding.
A holier-than-thou attitude hiding blatent bigotry is the impression it leaves in my mouth.

 

[OneSheep]

A lot of extremely questionable statement

Yes, I have found many of the same, and I questioned them. Is there something lately you would like to question? Or would you rather simply express something negative without any examples?

I invite you to rejoin the conversation. Before you do so, you might check the links I put in my last post.

 

[tafan2]

Pretty sure nothing I say will make a difference. Not really interested in your links. I will sum up my thought:
The Jews are in no way to blame for the persecution that occurred against them, especially the Holocaust.
Saying the Nazis should have forgiven the Jews is appalling.
The Nazis who participated in these crimes were evil.

 

[OneSheep]

Not really interested in your links.

Not even the posts by Rabbi, agreeing with me? By golly, how antisemitic. Sheesh. I am not expressing truth in that accusation, of course.

The Jews are in no way to blame for the persecution that occurred against them, especially the Holocaust.

Yes, absolutely.

Saying the Nazis should have forgiven the Jews is appalling.

Have you closed your mind to the Gospel? Would you rather have had them hang onto their resentment and hatred? The Nazis had grievances. The antidote to grievances, and the attached judgment, is forgiveness.

The Nazis who participated in these crimes were evil.

What do you think of this quote?:

“Anytime you have a negative feeling toward anyone, you’re living in an illusion. There’s something seriously wrong with you. You’re not seeing reality. Something inside of you has to change. But what do we generally do when we have a negative feeling? “He is to blame, she is to blame. She’s got to change.” No! The world’s all right. The one who has to change is you.”
― Anthony de Mello, Awareness

 

[Wampa]

@Sarcelle, DeoVindice1863 has been suspended, so he won’t be replying to your questions. He eventually revealed his true colors in this thread, but those posts were removed.

 

[OneSheep]

I have to add another great de Mello quote here:

“How does one cope with evil? Not by fighting it but by understanding it. In understanding, it disappears. How does one cope with darkness? Not with one’s fist. You don’t chase darkness out of the room with a broom, you turn on a light. The more you fight darkness, the more real it becomes to you, and the more you exhaust yourself. But when you turn on the light of awareness, it melts.”
― Anthony de Mello, Awareness: Conversations with the Masters

 

[tafan2]

Have you closed your mind to the Gospel? Would you rather have had them hang onto their resentment and hatred? The Nazis had grievances. The antidote to grievances, and the attached judgment, is forgiveness.

The Nazis had no legitimate grievances against the Jews. The German people, it may be argued, had a legitimate grievance due to the Versaille Treaty, but none of that could be targeted to Jews.
I have certainly not closed my mind to the Gospel. The Nazis did. What they did was evil. Evil is the absence of good. By that definition, the Nazis who participated were evil. Plain and simple. That is what we can know by the Gospel. I certainly would want them to repent of their sins. That was not going to happen if they were just told “yes you have grievances against the Jews, but you need to forgive the Jews”.

How does one cope with evil? Not by fighting it but by understanding it.

Sounds fine and dandy, but not always. We are not pacifists. In the words of Catholic historian Warren Carroll, WWII was the Great Just Cause. The only way to cope with the evil of the Nazis was to fight it. We should thank God that there were so many men willing to do so. They needed to be destroyed, literally. Saying anything less is, in my mind, antisemitic. So what do I think of the quote you gave, with regards to the Nazis: well, I can say is it acknowledges them being evil (more than you are willing to do), but it is naïve at best, and beyond dangerous at worse. The attitude of the quote , if it would have been wide spread in the late 30s and early 40s, would have ended civilization as we know it.

 

[OneSheep]

The Nazis had no legitimate grievances against the Jews

So the Nazis were thinking, “We think the Jews are evil and disposable because of this and this, etc., but our grievances are wrong and illegitimate.” Is this your assessment?

tafan2, you are coming from a position of healthy conscience, reacting to the beliefs and actions of the Nazis. I appreciate that, believe me. The point is not whether you or I think (know) that their grievances were legitimate, because they were not listening to you and I. They were listening to people who were in their same “ingroup”.

To bring it to today, we Americans need to keep in mind that within all the unjust prejudices against Latinos, for example, are people holding what they truly believe are legitimate grievances. It doesn’t matter what I tell them about their grievances being wrong, they were somehow wronged (or think they were wrongedby a Latino or Latinos, and they hold something against Latinos. Do you think there were no Germans around with grievances they could not forgive against Jews? On the other hand, do you think there were no Jews with grievances against Germans, who often made it hard for them to do business in Germany? Can you see that this is a matter of human psychology?

Does anyone think that their own grievances are illegitimate? If they do, they’re not likely pursuing what they see as justice with any zeal. Tafan2, how would you think it would go over if you went to a group of Trump supporters who had grievances against Latinos, and just told them that their grievances were wrong? It won’t work, it’s a judgment against them and they won’t like it. Instead, we meet falsehood with truth.

By that definition, the Nazis who participated were evil… They needed to be destroyed, literally.

To clarify, when you say they are “evil”, do you mean “people of infinite value, like all people, but doers of horrendous evil?” Or do you mean that they have an inherent disvalue?

 

[OneSheep]

Please, tafan2, look at this statement:

By that definition, the ___________ are evil, they need to be destroyed, literally.

How do you distinguish that statement from a statement of pure hatred? Please, think about this. Pray about it.

Sometimes war is necessary. Thank God, modern soldiers in the US are trained not to be in the mentality of anger and hatred against the enemy. They are encouraged to see opposing soldiers as blokes making a living like you and I. The reason? Hot heads make mistakes.

Certainly it is easier for soldiers to think of their opposites as disposable, evil, worthless, etc, because it is difficult to destroy what is seen as human. So, the middle ground is to see the enemy on the battlefield as so many robots, dispensible robots, not something to be angry/hateful toward.

Did you not read de Mello’s quote?

“Anytime you have a negative feeling toward anyone, you’re living in an illusion… -Anthony de Mello

You see, all perception of any other person as evil is an illusion. I wouldn’t go so far to say that “something is wrong with you”, I’d say that something is right with you, that your conscience is healthy and active! Jesus invites us to love and forgive beyond the confines of the conscience itself.

So what do I think of the quote you gave, with regards to the Nazis: well, I can say is it acknowledges them being evil (more than you are willing to do), but it is naïve at best, and beyond dangerous at worse.

People can go into battle with forgiving hearts. De Mello does not acknowledge anyone as “being evil”. He stated with clarity that it is an illusion when it involves a negative feeling.

Saying the Nazis should have forgiven the Jews is appalling.

I’ve thought about this statement some more. Well, I’d say that the majority of the Nazis would probably agree with you completely.

Can you imagine how the people felt when Jesus called for His people to love their enemies?

Love the Romans? Appalling.

But I am certain that Jesus calls all those with prejudices (grievances) to understand and forgive those they hold something against.

 

[tafan2]

So the Nazis were thinking, “We think the Jews are evil and disposable because of this and this, etc., but our grievances are wrong and illegitimate.” Is this your assessment?

No, it’s not my assessment, my assessment is they should have been loudly denounced by society at large, their political movement should have been marginalized early on. They should have never been given any political power in the least.

To clarify, when you say they are “evil”,

To clarify, I mean they were committing such horrible acts they abviously had no goodness left in them, they had become utterly depraved, they had become evil.

How do you distinguish that statement from a statement of pure hatred? Please, think about this. Pray about it.

Oh, isn’t that sweet, pray about it. The Nazis, as a political power, or group had to literally be destroyed, if that included killing those who were willing to fight for Nazism’s defense, it was necessary. It was a just war, and the historically unique demand for unconditional surrender was just.

Society cannot allow these ideologies to persist. The world could not standby and let such an evil ideology control all of Europe.

They had to be destroyed. As a political movement and ideology, they had zero value.

 

[OneSheep]

No, it’s not my assessment, my assessment is they should have been loudly denounced by society at large, their political movement should have been marginalized early on. They should have never been given any political power in the least.

Yes, I agree! They should have never been given political power. The same can be said for many oppressive regimes in the world, but not to downplay your comment. You are correct!

Again, you are demonstrating that your conscience is healthy and working well.

Now that it is established that your reaction to them is normal and very human (and commendable!), if you hold something against the Nazis, do you want to understand and forgive them, or do you want to hang onto your grudge, if it is the case that you hold something against them (i.e. holding their actions against their dignity as people)?

To clarify, I mean they were committing such horrible acts they abviously had no goodness left in them, they had become utterly depraved, they had become evil.

Yes, this is exactly what the conscience does. We see evil happen and the conscience wants to inflict some kind of punishment. The first punishment is the automatic condemnation we feel toward those who do evil, this is the “feeling negative” that de Mello was talking about.

Understanding and forgiveness is not a demand, it is an invitation. You’re not “in the wrong”, tafan2, your on the right track. If you hold something against the Nazis, forgive when you are ready, but not any sooner. Sometimes it takes years for people to be ready. Again, you may hold nothing against them, it may just sound like you do. If nothing else, though, to say someone is evil incites condemnation (judgement), it sows judgment. Is that what you wish to sow?

Oh, isn’t that sweet, pray about it.

We should all pray.

Society cannot allow these ideologies to persist. The world could not standby and let such an evil ideology control all of Europe.

Agreed!

They had to be destroyed. As a political movement and ideology, they had zero value.

Yes, again, this is what happens in the mind. We condemn the movement and ideology, and we see the good in the destruction of those who hold the ideology.

The painful truth is, tafan2, that this is exactly what the Nazis were thinking.

They did not think “our grievances are illegitimate”, they thought that their grievances were real and they had bits of information here and there supporting their claims. They thought “the Jews have to be destroyed. As an ethnic group and religion they have zero value.”

We can look to Church doctrine to guide us to truth. Church doctrine gives us the truth that all people have a dignity, regardless of their behavior, religion, ethnicity, etc. However, if we hold anything against anyone, we cannot see this dignity.

 

[Psalms62]

I had to look up the parties under the Knesset and the function and powers:

Powers and Functions of the Knesset​

The Knesset is the house of representatives (the parliament) of the State of Israel, in which the full range of current opinions are represented. Nevertheless, parties that reject the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish People, its democratic nature, or that incite racism may not participate in the elections.

Within the framework of the Israeli democratic system, in which there is a separation of powers amongst the legislature, the executive branch, and the judiciary, the Knesset is the legislative branch , with the exclusive authority to enact laws. The Knesset may pass laws on any subject and in any matter, as long as a proposed law does not contradict an existing basic law, and the legislative process is carried out as required by the law.Legislation constitutes an important part of the Knesset’s work.

As heir to the authority of the Constituent Assembly, the Knesset has a constituent-constitutional role , even though this role was denied by some in the past. According to the Proclamation of Independence, the constitution of the State of Israel should have been prepared by October 1, 1948, but even today Israel does not yet have a complete written constitution. Once all the basic laws are passed, they will together constitute the state’s constitution.

The Knesset supervises the work of the Government through its committees and the work of the plenum.

The Knesset has several quasi-judicial functions, which include the power to lift the immunity of its members, and the power to have thePresident of the State and State Comptroller removed.

The Knesset also has an elective function through which several public officials are elected.

---

This being said on a two party state and regarding the settlers:

Netanyahu’s promise to annex the West Bank settlements, explained​

BY BEN SALES APRIL 8, 2019 6:19 PM

The international community would likely protest annexation, and strongly, and Palestinians almost surely would. Commanders for Israel’s Security, a group of retired Israeli military officers that supports establishing a Palestinian state, predicts that annexation will lead to the collapse of the Palestinian Authority, which governs the Palestinian areas of the West Bank. The group says annexing all of the settlements will cost Israel $2.35 billion.

 

[Psalms62]

Reference:

# Basic Laws

# A beginner’s guide to the 2019 Israeli elections

# Israel’s Settlement Regularization Law: The Attorney General’s Extraordinary Brief and What it Means for Israel’s Legal Stance on Illegal Settlements

***Noting: Mandelblit declined to defend the Regularization Law in Court; He informed the government well before the law was passed that the law is unconstitutional and that it violates Israel’s obligations under international law. Mandelblit’s decision created a peculiar situation: the Attorney General’s office, which normally defends the government’s position in the courts, filed a brief opposing the law and urging the court to strike it down. The government had to retain private counsel for these proceedings, who submitted their own brief. The Knesset’s legal advisor filed yet another brief, arguing (very briefly) that the law should be upheld primarily on the ground that it raises non-justiciable political questions. 28 legal scholars filed an amicus brief in which they conclude that “The Regularization Law is unprecedented in Israeli law… It constitutes a grave violation of a long line of fundamental principles of Israeli constitutional law and international law that cannot be justified” (my translation).

 

[tafan2]

, and we see the good in the destruction of those who hold the ideology.

Your patronizing me would be bearable if you would actually take the time to read what I write. You continually attribute statements to me that I never say. Quite annoying. I was very explicit in what I said. Quit assuming you know what is in my mind.

 

[OneSheep]

They had to be destroyed. As a political movement and ideology, they had zero value.

Yes, again, this is what happens in the mind. We condemn the movement and ideology, and we see the good in the destruction of those who hold the ideology.

Your patronizing me would be bearable if you would actually take the time to read what I write. You continually attribute statements to me that I never say. Quite annoying. I was very explicit in what I said. Quit assuming you know what is in my mind.

Okay, let me back up. What did I misread? Please note that I am talking about normal human responses, not singling you out. Please be patient with me, I’m making a sincere effort.

See you in the morning…

 

[tafan2]

What did I misread?

Selective, out-of-context quoting. Go back one or to paragraphs from your quote. I never said I saw good in the destruction of people, unless they were fighting in the defense of the Nazis, and in that case it would be necessary. That’s why the war was The Great Just Causr.
Do you enjoy being so disingenuous? You really should try to have an honest discussion every now and then.