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CyberAngel
Guest
Just to clarify that if one just declares “I believe”
but his life shows the opposite then there is no love
LOVE is a command. You could read Apostol John (Gospel+Letters)
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but his life shows the opposite then there is no love
LOVE is a command. You could read Apostol John (Gospel+Letters)
Q
QuickCat
Guest
Top of the morning to you Maria:
James is probably the earliest book written during the Acts period. James is writing to a people still under the Law - Israel - 12 tribes scattered abroad. James mentions the synagogue in James 2:2. He is not addressing the Body of Christ. Paul writes to the Body of Christ. He says clearly that works have no part in our salvation, Eph. 2:8-10. You may also note what Paul writes in Romans 4:4-5.
If works could save you, how many works are required? Would you ever know when you have worked enough? Of course not.
Hope this helps.
Grace and Peace,
QC
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Sirach2
Guest
Maria was not saying, as Protestants protest so readily, that works save us. Are you attempting to teach on a Catholic site what Catholics should believe? Rather than pull isolated scriptures that agree with your position, you need to see the entire body of scriptures and the reason for the foundation of “faith that underlies and inspires our works.”
Here are a few more scriptures for you, and these were not written to Israel, as you alleged with St. James’s writings.
Titus 3:8, “… that they who believe in God may be careful to excel in good works.”
Rev. 22:12, “Behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me to render to each one according to his works.”
2 Peter 1:10, “Therefore, brethren, strive even more by good works to make your calling and election sure.”
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QuickCat
Guest
Greetings Sirach:
Titus 3:8 - You did’nt quote the entire verse -
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Paul is writing to saved people and encouraging them to “maintain good works.” The “good works” come AFTER salvation.
Rev. 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ will either receive a reward [for good works done after he/she is saved] or will suffer loss [of rewards] for those works that are “wood, hay and stubble” [1 Cor. 3:11-15].
2 Peter 1:10 - Please note that Peter is writing to the same people as James - Israel. James, Peter and John, etc. are apostles to the circumcision [Israel].
Of course, you are right, we need to “see the entire body of Scriptures.” And,l I might add, we absolutely must “rightly divide the Scriptures” [2 Tim 2:15]. Israel is not the Body of Christ nor is the Body of Christ Israel.
Grace and Peace,
QC
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Sirach2
Guest
Isn’t that what I said?
Of course, faith comes first, and then the works. Faith/salvation is a free gift, unmerited, and not earned FIRSTLY by works. That is our teaching. You are misinterpreting it as many protestants do, thinking that we save ourselves by what we do. No, no. Works are the things Christ asked of us as a response to our faith: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, counsel the doubful, and a long list of others that I’m sure you are familiar with.
I’m not going to quibble with you on the Israel thing, for it seems to be over your level of understanding. In God’s time, when you’re ready …
J
JerBear_Meaux
Guest
I think you should wait before judging this woman because you dont know what was meant
by what she said or what she understands, doesnt the catholic church believe that to be saved one must have their will directed towards god? and dont they teach that if you cant for some reason recognize the catholic church as the one true church that salvation can still be attained through jesus?
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CyberAngel
Guest
Fantastic!
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Sirach2
Guest
:thankyou: It’s lovely to have feedback - thanks, CyberAngel.
I just had another thought we all might consider with relation to good works being a preliminary for the gift of faith with which God graces a person. We see in Acts 10 the story of Cornelius, who was not a Jew, but lived according to his conscience doing many good deeds. Scripture tells us in verse 2 that he was devout and God-fearing, giving much alms to the people and praying to God continually.
God, who sees the heart of each person, sent Peter to bring him into the household of the faith.
So it’s kinda like the chicken and egg story - which came first, faith? or works? Could be the other way around, huh?
I think what our faith teaches is not to rely on our good works as the primary way to earn salvation [Catholics never believed that] – but to cooperate with the inspirations of our heart in using our gift of faith to love one another as ourself - the second greatest commandment. Cornelius was already doing that, and we see how wonderfully God blessed him with true faith.
I just had another thought we all might consider with relation to good works being a preliminary for the gift of faith with which God graces a person. We see in Acts 10 the story of Cornelius, who was not a Jew, but lived according to his conscience doing many good deeds. Scripture tells us in verse 2 that he was devout and God-fearing, giving much alms to the people and praying to God continually.
God, who sees the heart of each person, sent Peter to bring him into the household of the faith.
So it’s kinda like the chicken and egg story - which came first, faith? or works? Could be the other way around, huh?
I think what our faith teaches is not to rely on our good works as the primary way to earn salvation [Catholics never believed that] – but to cooperate with the inspirations of our heart in using our gift of faith to love one another as ourself - the second greatest commandment. Cornelius was already doing that, and we see how wonderfully God blessed him with true faith.
Q
QuickCat
Guest
I’m not going to quibble with you on the Israel thing, for it seems to be over your level of understanding. In God’s time, when you’re ready …
Sirach2, my “level of understanding” the Bible may surpass your “level of understanding.”
The Bible shows God dealing with 3 groups of people – Gentiles – Israel – Church
The first 11 chapter of Genesis has God dealing with the Gentiles. Paul summarizes this period in the 1st chapter of Romans – God “gave them up,” “gave them up,” and “gave them over” to their own vile ways.
Israel is in view from Genesis 12 right through the book of Acts. After the church is “caught up” God will once more deal with Israel in James – Revelation.
The gospels record our Lord’s earthly ministry to Israel – Note Mt. 15:24. He sent the 12 to Israel – note Mt. 10:1-10.
As we come into the book of Acts we find our Lord teaching the 11 remaining apostles, from the O.T., about the kingdom for Israel. He taught them for 40 days and “opened their understanding” of these O.T. Scriptures. They ask Him, thusly: “Will you AT THIS TIME restore the kingdom to Israel?” After His ascension the 11 make it their first order of business to bring their number back up to 12. Why? Mt. 19:28 provides the answer. Peter offers the kingdom to Israel in Acts 3:19-21. We know from our study of the Acts that Israel continued to reject the Lord and so God scattered them.
Peter’s 5 speeches in early Acts are all directed to “ye men of Israel.” Peter presents the cross as bad news and accuses the Jews of murdering their Messiah. He presents the Lord in resurrection to be a “Prince and a Savior to Israel” – note Acts 5:30-31.
The Body of Christ was first revealed to Paul – Eph. 3:1-9; He calls it a mystery, not revealed in ages past. Note also Romans 16:25 and Colossians 1:25,26. Paul is the only N.T. writer to mention the “Body of Christ” as the church. The great doctrines for this Body are to be found primarily in Paul’s epistles.
QC
Sirach2, my “level of understanding” the Bible may surpass your “level of understanding.”
The Bible shows God dealing with 3 groups of people – Gentiles – Israel – Church
The first 11 chapter of Genesis has God dealing with the Gentiles. Paul summarizes this period in the 1st chapter of Romans – God “gave them up,” “gave them up,” and “gave them over” to their own vile ways.
Israel is in view from Genesis 12 right through the book of Acts. After the church is “caught up” God will once more deal with Israel in James – Revelation.
The gospels record our Lord’s earthly ministry to Israel – Note Mt. 15:24. He sent the 12 to Israel – note Mt. 10:1-10.
As we come into the book of Acts we find our Lord teaching the 11 remaining apostles, from the O.T., about the kingdom for Israel. He taught them for 40 days and “opened their understanding” of these O.T. Scriptures. They ask Him, thusly: “Will you AT THIS TIME restore the kingdom to Israel?” After His ascension the 11 make it their first order of business to bring their number back up to 12. Why? Mt. 19:28 provides the answer. Peter offers the kingdom to Israel in Acts 3:19-21. We know from our study of the Acts that Israel continued to reject the Lord and so God scattered them.
Peter’s 5 speeches in early Acts are all directed to “ye men of Israel.” Peter presents the cross as bad news and accuses the Jews of murdering their Messiah. He presents the Lord in resurrection to be a “Prince and a Savior to Israel” – note Acts 5:30-31.
The Body of Christ was first revealed to Paul – Eph. 3:1-9; He calls it a mystery, not revealed in ages past. Note also Romans 16:25 and Colossians 1:25,26. Paul is the only N.T. writer to mention the “Body of Christ” as the church. The great doctrines for this Body are to be found primarily in Paul’s epistles.
QC
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Sirach2
Guest
:tiphat: I haven’t changed my mind, Quick Cat. No quibbling.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: After Pentecost Peter gives the definative answer in Acts2.Hello peeps!!How does one become saved in the Catholic Church?
Acts2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. The PROMISE is unto you, AND to your CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]
Eph1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of PROMISE,
For an Adult, he hears the Word, believes, repents, is baptized FOR remmission of sins, RECEIVES the gift of the Holy Spirit. Being BORN AGAIN, a child of God, by water AND OF the Holy Spirit as Christ tells us in Jn3.
[Gal 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you **AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]
2Cor5:17 Therefore, if ANY ONE is IN CHRIST, he IS A NEW CREATION; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
Peter continues in [Acts2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, **SAVE YOURSELVES from the untoward generation. 41 THEN they that gladly RECEIVED his word were BAPTIZED: and the SAME DAY were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ doctrine and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD (Mass), and in PRAYERS.] Notice Peter says SAVE YOURSELVES. How? By being BAPTIZED thru which they WERE ADDED to that ONE VISIBLE Apostolic Fellowship, the Body of Christ, the Church.
1Pt3:20 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 THAT HE MIGHT **SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,]
[TITUS 3:5 **NOT by WORKS…we’ve done BUT by HIS MERCY he SAVED us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING of the HOLY SPIRIT 6 which he POURED OUT ON US richly THROUGH JESUS Christ our Savior 7 SO we might be JUSTIFIED BY his GRACE and become HEIRS…]
How does scripture tell us we are washed? Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord. How does scripture tell us we become a child of God?
The Sacrament of Baptism not only remits, washes and cleanses, of sins but regenerates our soul, by POURING OUT the Holy Spirit. That indwelling Holy Spirit, justifies us by his grace making us a child of God and heirs. In baptism the body is now dead to sin, whereas before the soul was dead, and slave to the flesh. Now the body (flesh) is subject to the regenerated soul, by the Holy Spirit indwelling. We no longer live in old Adam but are born again into the new Adam.
[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you. But **YOU WERE WASHED you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the NAME of the Lord JESUS Christ AND in the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.]
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Paul’s gospel was the SAME gospel as the other apostles. Paul even check his gospel with the apostolic fellowship to make sure.
[Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after **I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]
There is only ONE people of God not TWO dispensations.
[Rms11:15 For **if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and IF THE ROOT BE HOLY, SO ARE THE BRANCHES. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, AND THOU BEING A WILD OLIVE TREE, WERT GRAFTED IN among them, AND WITH THEM **; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, THOU BEAREST NOT THE ROOT, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For IF GOD SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCES, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, SHALL BE GRAFTED IN: for GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, AND WERT GRAFTED contrary to nature INTO A GOOD OLIVE TREE.: HOW MUCH MORE SHALL THESE, which be **THE NATURAL BRANCES, BE GRAFTED INTO THEIR OWN **OLIVE TREE? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.]
There is only ONE olive tree whose roots are holy and we have been grafted into that ONE OLIVE TREE. When God converts all Israel, they will be grafted back into that SAME, ONE, OLIVE TREE, with the ONE people of God. In the ONE BODY AND BRIDE OF CHRIST, THE CHURCH.
[Eph3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 THAT THE GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOWHEIRS, and OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:]
[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 **That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens FROM the commonwealth of ISRAEL, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD: 22 In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER for AN HABITATION OF GOD through the Spirit.] I see NO evidence there are two people of God. When God converts all Israel they will be baptized into the ONE BODY OF CHRIST the Church.
[1Cor12:13 For **by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED into ONE BODY, WHETHER we be JEWS or GENTILES , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] By the Spirit are ALL BAPTIZED into one BODY, the Church.
Gal3:26 For YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have put on Christ. 28 THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye ABRAHAM’S SEED, and HEIRS according TO THE PROMISE.
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Sirach2
Guest
Excuse me, jlhargus – I did not author the post you just responded to. It was QuickCat. I also objected to his posts, but decided it was best not to quibble with him. He seems very set in his beliefs.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Thank Sirach2, I appologize. My post #31 above should be quoting QuickCat and not Sirach.
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