What is charismatic Catholicism?

[Jon_Mallory]

Well, if you look at church history, you will find that many lay persons and monks attacked the hierarchy. St Maximos the confessor is such a one. He lived I a time when many eastern bishops were Aryans. Should he have kept his mouth shut? It would not be inappropriate to call such bishops heretics. Just because someone is a bishop does not make him immune to criticism. Even popes are not immune to criticism. Just research the pope during Martin Luther’s time who is famous for saying, “God gave us the papacy. Let us enjoy it”. The Charismatic Movement clearly has many strengths but traditionalists are right to be concerned about the integrity of the church’s liturgical heritage. It is a treasure to be and respected. If the church has to be divided against itself, then at least the factions within the church can counter the other’s excesses. Sigh, why does the western church have to have this problem? The eastern church has kept its practices constant for over a thousand years. The western church is constantly being thrown into upheaval by new movements.

 

[grannymh]

I do not consider the author of The Charismatic Renewal as a fool.

In the opening sentence, there is a link to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal website, the same link I provided in post 4 nsc-chariscenter.org/
The two opening paragraphs are balanced.

Where the article starts to run into trouble is the closing sentence of the second paragraph and the first sentence of the third paragraph.
“As with all things spiritual, discernment is necessary before embarking on a journey through a particular mode or style of spirituality.”

“It can be argued that charismatic spirituality is, at best, a “stage” or “phase” within the spiritual lives of individuals, and that it should be, eventually, outgrown.”
churchmilitant.tv/faq/charismatic.pdf

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is not a particular mode or style of spirituality and it is not a "stage or “phase.” Obviously, the common gift of praying to God in Tongues is a spiritual practice; but, that is only one part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Catholics would never say that the Rosary, a spiritual practice, is Catholicism, period. Likewise, an author should not treat the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as if it were only a spiritual style, period.

Note: I have printed out the Charismatic Renewal article because it is easier to highlight important points; thus, easier to study. Yes, I know the dumb blonde joke. If someone has a question about any of the paragraphs, I will respond accordingly.

Blessings,
granny

The human person can embrace God in many ways.

 

[ccmcmg]

Fr. Chad Ripperger who is a member of the FSSP has been critical Pentecostal origins of the charismatic movement within Catholicism.

There is no historical proof for Pentecostal caims that they really are capable of speaking in tongues. When St. Peter and the twelve apostles were speaking in tongues that used actual human languages such as Latin not nonsense.

Also if Church Militant is such a bad thing then what about american life league these are faithful Catholics who accept Vatican 2 and even though they may not be officially promoted by a bishop they still do good for the Church by bringing people in to the Church

Fr. Chad Ripperger doesn’t represent the FSSP in the regard, nor does he represent the Church. His opinions are just that: his opinions. They hold no water in the whiole of the Church and the Faith.

I do not have any information about ‘American Life League’; does it chose to attack legitimate portions of the Catholic Faith? If it does, then I would have a problem with it. How do you feel when others attack ‘Trads’?

That “schmoo” presented some same stuff seen on CAF some years ago.

If anyone is curious about certain stuff, I will be happy to respond with the truth.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm is a great source of information. Thank you.

GrannyMH is very wise, and has shared some excellent resources, that are supported by the Church.

I was talking about the church militant which is not recognized by the church. I follow Peter and if Peter approves of the Charismatic Movement, so do I. I admit, I like traditional liturgical services more than the style of the Charismatic Movement. I have no issue, however, with the results of the charismatic movement. Growing in faith is a good thing and snobby traditionalism does not promote humility or reverence. I just hope that the movement does not divide Catholics against each other, which I think it already has

Sadly, it isn’t the Charismatic movement that is dividing Catholics against each other. It is those who are against the movement, for whatever reason. While it’s good to be cautious, in many ways, the Church has done all the hard work for us on this matter. ‘Charismatic Catholics’ are welcomed and approved.

I’ve always been the person who was sensitive to the reverency of the Mass, to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. However, my soul rejoices at the praise and joy of the Mass I attend monthly that is more Charismatic. Yes, my soul rejoices at my more traditional parish, too, but in a different way. But OH the freedom of my arms being raised by the Holy Spirit, in praise and thanksgiving, without drawing attention to myself in a more ‘staid’ crowd, is amazing. The Mass isn’t that much different, other than you can feel the Holy Spirit working in those who have come, whether they are new and not sure what to expect (non-believers, perhaps), or long time Catholics.

We are called to engage those disagree with the church. On whose authority do you call these people fools? Such language heightens animosity and only serves make resentment fester all the more. I am opposed to snobby traditionalism but I have great respect for tradition as it is our heritage. I protest the digging up of bagshot row just as much as I oppose hyper-traditionalists.

My own apologies Jon, if it seems that some of us are a bit defensive about the attacks on the Church, through the Charismatic veil. The response you’ve seen here against the Charismatic movement is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

Remember many Saints in church history were critical of the Church in times of great upheaval in the Church. such as St. Cathrine of Siena who told the Pope at the time to return to Rome.

Also remember that Mother Angelica was very critical towards bishops who steped out of line with Church teaching.

So Mr.Voris is in very good company and He may sometimes be harsh but He does it to helps us understand the problems the Church today.

I pray for him and Church Militant to one day recieve offical approval by their archbishop

 

[ccmcmg]

I don’t recall if I saw it in this thread and it was removed/I cannot find it, or another, but I need to respond to a comment regarding this: “Why is the focus on the Holy Spirit and not on the Trinity?”

God is our focus in all things. Sometimes, that focus is on Jesus Christ our Savior (as in the Eucharist). Sometimes it’s on the Father in thankfulness for our blessings and His Son. Then we have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is an equal member of the Trinity, and is God. We have devotions to Jesus Christ though His Sacred Heart; we have Eucharistic Adoration. We have various devotions to the Son; why couldn’t we, why WOULDN’T we, have devotions to the Holy Spirit? It’s not required, but we’re shorting ourselves when we neglect God in part of the Trinity.

I do not judge or criticize others for their devotions. I do not understand why others feel the need to criticize our devotion to the Holy Spirit. The criticism from others of my devotion to the Holy Spirit, which only strengthens my entire relationship with God, the Father and Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, is not from a strong and loving heart.

I cannot let others criticize a portion of my Faith, our Faith, our God in this manner. I will defend God each and every time, whether as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I will try not to criticize them, but to understand it comes from fear or misunderstanding. But I will always, always defend God and His Church.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Remember many Saints in church history were critical of the Church such as St. Cathrine of Siena who told the Pope at the time to return to Rome.

Also remember that Mother Angelica was very critical towards bishops who steped out of line with Church teaching.

So Mr.Voris is in very good company

That’s simlar to what I wrote regarding St. Maximos the Confessor. Also, can you blame traditionalists for feeling threatened? Try to understand it from their perspective. Looking at the history of the church as a whole, the way worship was done changed over night. You can’t expect to uproot a familiar way of worshiping and expect no push back. When you try to dig up bagshot row, the hobbits fight back. It is not the traditionalists’ fault that there is division within the church. The two ways of worship are foreign to one another and are hence, mutually irreconcialable. The traditionalists need to experience being slain in the spirit or the charismatics need to change. We can’t just all get along. That is why there is a war within the church. It is not entirely one side’s fault or the other’s.

 

[ccmcmg]

Remember many Saints in church history were critical of the Church in times of great upheaval in the Church. such as St. Cathrine of Siena who told the Pope at the time to return to Rome.

Also remember that Mother Angelica was very critical towards bishops who steped out of line with Church teaching.

So Mr.Voris is in very good company and He may sometimes be harsh but He does it to helps us understand the problems the Church today.

I pray for him and Church Militant to one day recieve offical approval by their archbishop

The Charismatic Movement is not out of line with Church teaching, nor is it causing ‘great upheaval’, so please do not compare the two. The CCM is not a problem in the Church. Do you likewise have issues with the Rosary, or other devotions to God? I do not know much about ‘Church Militant’ but if it sets itself above the Church, as it does in the criticism of CCM, then I don’t see that happening.

 

[grannymh]

Remember many Saints in church history were critical of the Church such as St. Cathrine of Siena who told the Pope at the time to return to Rome.

Also remember that Mother Angelica was very critical towards bishops who steped out of line with Church teaching.

So Mr.Voris is in very good company

St. Catherine of Siena is one of my favorites. I long to have her guts. As it is, I am simply stubborn.

I hope you understand that I am not opposing Mr. Voris per se. What I am doing is pointing out the errors in the midst of some good points in an article on his website.

Would you be so kind as to give me a paragraph which you especially see as truth?
Please, anyone can give me a paragraph or two.

I am not blind to problems. In other threads, I have advised a person to report a particular problem, first to the pastor, and then up the ladder to the bishop, provided that the “problem” was actually a problem and not a difference of opinions.

Please note. I may not be able to respond immediately, but I will respond eventually. Sometimes my life is a zoo.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[ccmcmg]

That’s simlar to what I wrote regarding St. Maximos the Confessor. Also, can you blame traditionalists for feeling threatened? Try to understand it from their perspective. Looking at the history of the church as a whole, the way worship was done changed over night. You can’t expect to uproot a familiar way of worshiping and expect no push back. When you try to dig up bagshot row, the hobbits fight back. It is not the traditionalists’ fault that there is division within the church.

The two ways of worship are foreign to one another and are hence, mutually irreconcialable. The traditionalists need to experience being slain in the spirit or the charismatics need to change. We can’t just all get along. That is why there is a war within the church. It is not entirely one side’s fault or the other’s.

Some, not all, so-called traditionalists have set themselves up to ‘know better’ than the Church, and will not accept Vatican 2. It didn’t happen ‘overnight’. However, change IS difficult for anyone, especially when it’s something so integral to our being. I understand that, and accept that. However, I’m not telling others not to worship as that. As long as the Church welcomes them, I welcome them. I may not understand it, or worship in the same way as they do, but I don’t criticize.

Vatican 2 was what? Almost 50 years ago? Overnight has long since passed. The ‘two ways’ (there are many more ways, all approved) of ‘worship’ that you speak of, are not opposites or foreign. They are the same, actually. It’s the sacrifice of the Mass. It’s Catholic. It’s Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior on the altar.

The war in the Church isn’t from the CCM. It isn’t from the Catholics who want to love and serve the Lord. It isn’t about each other. The ‘war’ is from within, and by fighting this war, they are fighting God, and the Church.
*
This should probably be in a separate thread (if at all…I vote for not at all, personally) if we are going to comment on changes, traditionalists/non-trads.
*

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

I want to be honest with all of you. I have no problem with the charismatic movement in the Church.

I am only 27 years old and I love Our Beautiful Faith because I feel that we as Catholics have forgotten Our Beautiful traditions which greatly hurts me.

I respect all the Church hierarchy and pray for them daily if I offended anyone please forgive me.

 

[ccmcmg]

I want to be honest with all of you. I have no problem with thecharismatic movement but I am deeply concerned about the non Catholic roots of it.

I am only 27 years old and I love Our Beautiful Faith because I feel that we as Catholics have forgotten Our Beautiful traditions which greatly hurts me.

I respect all the Church hierarchy and pray for them daily if I offended anyone please forgive me

I can understand that, and thank you for the clarification. Any comments that come across from me as defensive, were in defense of God, and the Church, in that order.

The ‘roots’ of the CCM are in the Holy Spirit. While the Pentecostals might also follow the Holy Spirit in a charismatic way, the Catholic Charismatic Movement is that…Catholic. While there might be similarities, that doesn’t mean it isn’t Catholic. My relationship with the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with any other faith but Catholic, and the relationship is Catholic because His Church is Catholic.

I love our beautiful Faith too. We are so blessed. There are so many ways She helps bring us closer to God. There are some beautiful traditions of the Church that we all need to pay more attention to. Many people, when hearing that I have this special relationship with the Holy Spirit (Charismatic) might be surprised to hear that I pray the Rosary and Divine Mercy often; that I have attended Mass in both Latin and the vernacular (which has been Spanish too!), and that I also love Eucharistic Adoration. There isn’t a ‘box’ to fit me in. I’m Catholic. I’m His. Thank you for being a part of that. God bless you.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Some, not all, so-called traditionalists have set themselves up to ‘know better’ than the Church, and will not accept Vatican 2. It didn’t happen ‘overnight’. However, change IS difficult for anyone, especially when it’s something so integral to our being. I understand that, and accept that. However, I’m not telling others not to worship as that. As long as the Church welcomes them, I welcome them. I may not understand it, or worship in the same way as they do, but I don’t criticize.

Vatican 2 was what? Almost 50 years ago? Overnight has long since passed. The ‘two ways’ (there are many more ways, all approved) of ‘worship’ that you speak of, are not opposites or foreign. They are the same, actually. It’s the sacrifice of the Mass. It’s Catholic. It’s Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior on the altar.

The war in the Church isn’t from the CCM. It isn’t from the Catholics who want to love and serve the Lord. It isn’t about each other. The ‘war’ is from within, and by fighting this war, they are fighting God, and the Church.
*
This should probably be in a separate thread (if at all…I vote for not at all, personally) if we are going to comment on changes, traditionalists/non-trads.
*

I didn’t mean literally overnight. When you compare the time that has passed since Vatican II with the entire history of the church, it is figuratively overnight. Also, please forgive me also if I have said things that have come across as belligerent. I went to a Pentecostal church once and had a bad experience. That’s my only experience with charismaticism. The Catholic Church has such a wide umbrella under which many rites, devotions, etc exist. It is just overwhelming. I think I will try and join a charismatic prayer group if one is offered at my parish. Please pray that I would experience baptism in the Holy Spirit so that I won’t feel like an outsider.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I didn’t mean literally overnight. When you compare the time that has passed since Vatican II with the entire history of the church, it is figuratively overnight. Also, please forgive me also if I have said things that have come across as belligerent. I went to a Pentecostal church once and had a bad experience. That’s my only experience with charismaticism. The Catholic Church has such a wide umbrella under which many rites, devotions, etc exist. It is just overwhelming. I think I will try and join a charismatic prayer group if one is offered at my parish. Please pray that I would experience baptism in the Holy Spirit so that I won’t feel like an outsider.

Why wait? Go ahead and ask? You don’t have to have anyone special pray over you (it does make it easier though) all one has to do is yield to the Holy Spirit. As I mentioned in another thread, when I went to my first Charismatic Mass the priest (he was the pastor BTW) went around to pray over everyone. I saw some people resting in the Spirit, and was praying, “don’t let me go down, don’t let me go down.” When the priest finally got to me he chuckled as though he knew what I had been praying (it also could have been that I sat in the back so I could bolt if anything weird happened and stood where I was one of the last to be prayed over.) I didn’t rest in the Spirit but the sensation was one of my heart being “hugged”. It wasn’t uncomfortable, it wasn’t arrhythmia or something like that because I would describe it as warm, gentle, even pleasant and afterwards, peaceful. I went through the Life in the Spirit seminar several months later at a different parish but I know that moment is when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. I didn’t yield to resting in the Spirit but was okay with anything else. The more I yielded, the more the Holy Spirit was able to work on me and through me.

So ask.

 

[grannymh]

I didn’t mean literally overnight. When you compare the time that has passed since Vatican II with the entire history of the church, it is figuratively overnight. Also, please forgive me also if I have said things that have come across as belligerent. I went to a Pentecostal church once and had a bad experience. That’s my only experience with charismaticism. The Catholic Church has such a wide umbrella under which many rites, devotions, etc exist. It is just overwhelming. I think I will try and join a charismatic prayer group if one is offered at my parish. Please pray that I would experience baptism in the Holy Spirit so that I won’t feel like an outsider.

Are you a Catholic seeking to serve Jesus? If yes, you are an insider.

 

[grannymh]

I want to be honest with all of you. I have no problem with the charismatic movement in the Church.

I am only 27 years old and I love Our Beautiful Faith because I feel that we as Catholics have forgotten Our Beautiful traditions which greatly hurts me.

I respect all the Church hierarchy and pray for them daily if I offended anyone please forgive me.

Thank you.

With your recent join date, you have missed some bloody battles over the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Fortunately, that was years ago and has not been repeated. Praise God. Yet, we need to understand that some of the same concerns still exist in many geographic locations. In fact, some of these concerns continue to appear on CAF; but, they are expressed charitably which is what you did.

I have only seen questions about Charismatic Spirituality a couple of times on CAF. Then, it was easy to understand that we all have a choice as to how we live spiritually. Years ago, I belonged to a Charismatic Prayer Group where one of the members praised God in English. She never prayed in Tongues. When we were praising God, and I was near her, I, too, would pray in English. Our “spirituality” was the same in any language.

As I read the Church Militant link, I recognized a number of misconceptions about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. That is not fair. It is scary.

This thread’s title asks a question. The Church Militant article does not properly answer that question, that is, it leaves out important information. On the other hand, it does bring up problems which need to be addressed properly.

I am still interested in knowing your concerns and reactions to various paragraphs. If you do not wish to share them, that is perfectly fine. The same invitation and the recognition of personal privacy are offered to everyone.

One of the paragraphs which bothered me was the one which begins with
“Charismatic spirituality can seem, to many, like the Kingdom of God has come, that one is already in Heaven.” Oh, really? Then why am I in work clothes heading to the Vineyard as a laborer? Matthew 20: 1-16.

Link to article
churchmilitant.tv/faq/charismatic.pdf

 

[DebChris]

If you walk into any Catholic parish, you would be hard pressed to be able to tell who is and who is not a Charismatic Catholic. This is as it should be.
The outward manifestations, or charisms, are always less important than what happens interiorly to the person, how he or she changes spiritually along his or her journey to heaven. Each of us, by virtue of our Baptism and Confirmation has been given specific gifts. Some of these gifts lay dormant, hidden in the back of a closet never to be opened. When Catholic Charismatics speaks of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit,” they are not speaking about a new Sacrament. The more correct term is a Release of the Holy Spirit, since that it is what it truly is. We take down the gifts that we have already received by virtue of the Sacraments, open them, and begin to use them in a more powerful way than in the past. Instead of the Sacraments being a mere ritual, a family tradition, the individual makes a deeper commitment in his/her walk with Christ.
The Catholic Church is not abandoned. Indeed, many Charismatics rediscover the richness of the Catholic Faith. As I try to tell others, what the Catholic Church teaches is simple enough to be summarized in the Nicene Creed, yet through a lifetime the richness of what it offers can never be reached. We have 2 millennium of devotions developed by devout saints who found ways of worshiping an awesome God.
He calls each of us by name for His purpose. Some he gifts with the power to heal, others with words of encouragement for those who may be struggling through difficult times. We should not be surprised that during a time of so much secularism, that God would choose to empower His people with extraordinary gifts to face the challenges of the world.
The Holy Spirit likewise works among our non-Catholic brothers and sisters. As Vatican II reminds us, the divisions among Christians serve as a scandal to the world. Strife has no place among Christians. Unlike members of the Pentecostal churches that sprouted as a result of late nineteenth and early twentieth century revivals, we have the authority and Tradition of the Catholic Church to support our efforts to bring Christ to the world.

 

[ccmcmg]

I didn’t mean literally overnight. When you compare the time that has passed since Vatican II with the entire history of the church, it is figuratively overnight. Also, please forgive me also if I have said things that have come across as belligerent. I went to a Pentecostal church once and had a bad experience. That’s my only experience with charismaticism. The Catholic Church has such a wide umbrella under which many rites, devotions, etc exist. It is just overwhelming. I think I will try and join a charismatic prayer group if one is offered at my parish. Please pray that I would experience baptism in the Holy Spirit so that I won’t feel like an outsider.

You don’t need to feel a ‘baptism’ in the Holy Spirit to feel welcome. In fact, I wouldn’t even use that word to describe my delving into this. It just…is. Open your heart, mind and most importantly, your soul to the Holy Spirit. Don’t have preconceived notions about what should or shouldn’t happen, what will or won’t happen.

I agree; it can be overwhelming if we try to take it all in. How, as it is said, do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. There is so much to learn and there is always room for growth. Give Him all your love and devotion. You won’t be disappointed.

 

[DebChris]

I didn’t mean literally overnight. When you compare the time that has passed since Vatican II with the entire history of the church, it is figuratively overnight. Also, please forgive me also if I have said things that have come across as belligerent. I went to a Pentecostal church once and had a bad experience. That’s my only experience with charismaticism. The Catholic Church has such a wide umbrella under which many rites, devotions, etc exist. It is just overwhelming. I think I will try and join a charismatic prayer group if one is offered at my parish. Please pray that I would experience baptism in the Holy Spirit so that I won’t feel like an outsider.

Please don’t compare the Catholic Charismatic Renewal with Pentecostal churches.

As Catholics, we can visit non-Catholics churches provided that we first attend Mass. When I was in Chicago, I was invited to an Apostolic Holiness church. At the time I was on active duty for support as an Army Reservist. I had grave concerns about what I observed. Men and women separated into their literal prayer closets. There was a great focus on the emotional buildup and the praying of tongues. When a young boy, about ten years old began to pray in tongues, the decision was made that he needed to be Baptized. The only thing I could think was, “Where is his decision in all this?” I greatly questioned what was happening, and could easily how the congregation could be led astray by a Jim Jones. The woman who invited me did not understand how I could simply sit back and observe all that happened and not be moved.

It was not much longer and my own life hit a crisis point. I went on an Easter retreat. I came into the Charismatic Renewal of the Catholic Church without even knowing what it was. I would drive 50 miles to the nearest Charismatic meeting, held where I had gone on retreat, even through WI winters. I was being led by the Holy Spirit. Since I was under the umbrella of the Catholic Church, there was a greater emphasis placed on discernment. Discernment is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit developed over time. Anybody who speaks a word of prophecy within a Catholic Charismatic meeting submits to the discernment of the group. Is what has been spoken in line with Scripture, with Tradition, with the Magisterium? It is important to learn the difference between one’s own thoughts and what the Holy Spirit is saying? “My sheep know my voice. They will not listen to another.”

While you may hear end time prophesies coming televangelists and members of Pentecostal churches, the prophesies that you are most likely to hear in Catholic Charismatic meetings are words of encouragement. By definition, a prophecy is not a prediction of the future, but rather God speaking through a person chosen by him. That is the charism. That is also the protection afforded by the Catholic Church through the teaching authority of the magisterium.

I do understand your concerns. Pope Francis himself expressed his own concerns until actually meeting with charismatics. Pope Benedict XVI warned Charismatics against spiritual pride and called all to be open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending review by forum moderator Thomas Casey.