What is Christ's Church?

[skeptictank]

The title pretty much says it. I was reading a catholic’s post wherein he/she said that anyone who rejects the church will go to hell. I thought that was interesting because as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The title pretty much says it. I was reading a catholic’s post wherein he/she said that anyone who rejects the church will go to hell. I thought that was interesting because as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

Hi,

Well I agree with you:thumbsup:

 

[skeptictank]

umm… thanks. Out of curiosity what denomination are you?

Skeptictank

 

[ALLFORHIM]

umm… thanks. Out of curiosity what denomination are you?

Skeptictank

Hi,

I am a born again christian who goes to a non-denom church:thumbsup:

 

[scylla]

Simple.
Christ’s Church is the Church Jesus founded.

Since Jesus taught certain beliefs this would all be one body of faith which is united in doctrine and displays this unity.

Those who reject this knowingly are rejecting the beliefs that Jesus taught. Many do this out of bigotry, pride and sin.

There are many who reject this, without knowing this and sincerely are seeking Christ, they are not rejecting His teachings out of bigotry, pride or sin and therefore are not rejecting Christ.

Catholics profess that the Church Jesus founded is the Catholic Church.
creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm

Many modern Protestants believe that there is a different story which comes up such as a hidden group of Christians, invisible church unity, multiple churches founded by Christ, etc…

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Church is indeed the Body of Christ–it is also the “Bride of Christ”, the “New Jerusalem”, and the Catholic Church.

All people are called, through their humanity, into a ‘membership’ in the Catholic Church. It is “through” the Catholic Church that we are saved by the actions of Christ in His death and resurrection.

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.”

So no, we Catholics are not just ‘thinking of the hierarchy’
when we speak of those who reject Christ’s Church as being in danger of damnation. Not that ‘we’ in any way damn them; we simply note what Scripture says regarding the issue and what has been Christian teaching for some 2000 years (though some have rejected parts and parcels of that teaching). We also note that “invincible ignorance” may excuse many; but in the end, the only way any person–Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, other religious or non religious–is saved is through the Catholic Church. Here is a good link to the teaching:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#816

This section deals with the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church.

God bless.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The title pretty much says it. I was reading a catholic’s post wherein he/she said that anyone who rejects the church will go to hell. I thought that was interesting because as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

This is incorrect.

From Dominus Iesus:

1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The title pretty much says it. I was reading a catholic’s post wherein he/she said that anyone who rejects the church will go to hell. I thought that was interesting because **as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. ** Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

You are correct.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Scylla>>Those who reject this knowingly are rejecting the beliefs that Jesus taught. Many do this out of bigotry, pride and sin.

My friend, where did Jesus teach the sinlessness of Mary, the Assumption of Mary, purgatory or any number of Catholic doctrines? Don’t you agree it’d be good not to add words to Jesus’ mouth? God bless ya.

 

[skeptictank]

Simple.
Christ’s Church is the Church Jesus founded.

Do you mind expanding on this statement? I don’t mean to split hairs but that statement could be understood several ways.

Since Jesus taught certain beliefs this would all be one body of faith which is united in doctrine and displays this unity.

"1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. "

Is this the unity you’re talking about?

Those who reject this knowingly are rejecting the beliefs that Jesus taught. Many do this out of bigotry, pride and sin.

So, according to catholic dogma, what are the essential doctrines of salvation?

There are many who reject this, without knowing this and sincerely are seeking Christ, they are not rejecting His teachings out of bigotry, pride or sin and therefore are not rejecting Christ.

I see no need for this thing you call the catholic church. It’s certainly usefull as far as its keeping records back to the second century ano domini, but as far as salvation is concerned, I don’t understand the place of an organization, nor the necessity of loyalty to said organization. What is gained by being baptised by a catholic preist that is not gained by baptism by some other stranger? What is gained by going to mass that is not gained by a home fellowship? What is gained by hearing the homily of a preist that is not gained by the washing of the same word at home?

The original church was held in homes, yet now it has been mutated into a gathering to over elaborate chapels, with superfluous decorations, etc… I’m speaking generally of course. The point I mean to communicate, is that this hierarchical view of the church seems superfluous, and seems to limit in one’s mind, the power of the spirit.

Catholics profess that the Church Jesus founded is the Catholic Church.
creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm

In the sense that the church is universally inclusive, I agree. If by that you mean that organization of man, I don’t see any reason to believe such a thing.

Many modern Protestants believe that there is a different story which comes up such as a hidden group of Christians, invisible church unity, multiple churches founded by Christ, etc…

I don’t know much about that but I would certainly contest the idea that more than a single church was founded by christ.

Thank you for your answer.

Skeptictank

 

[NotWorthy]

Uh, let’s see.

“Go therefore, to all the nations, teaching them all that I have commanded, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”.

“He who rejects you, rejects me. And he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me”.

BTW I’m NOT passing judgement on anyone who’s rejected the Church and her teaching, I’m just saying that I’m not willing to take that chance!!!

 

[skeptictank]

The Church is indeed the Body of Christ–it is also the “Bride of Christ”, the “New Jerusalem”, and the Catholic Church.

All people are called, through their humanity, into a ‘membership’ in the Catholic Church. It is “through” the Catholic Church that we are saved by the actions of Christ in His death and resurrection.

Interesting, that doesn’t seem to be what jesus thought.

"Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I’m sure you’ve read this and heard it many times, but it seems to be contrary to your statement.

So no, we Catholics are not just ‘thinking of the hierarchy’ when we speak of those who reject Christ’s Church as being in danger of damnation. Not that ‘we’ in any way damn them; we simply note what Scripture says regarding the issue and what has been Christian teaching for some 2000 years (though some have rejected parts and parcels of that teaching).

We also note that “invincible ignorance” may excuse many; but in the end, the only way any person–Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, other religious or non religious–is saved is through the Catholic Church. Here is a good link to the teaching:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#816

Thanks, I’ll have a look at it.

God bless,

Skeptictank

 

[skeptictank]

Uh, let’s see.

“Go therefore, to all the nations, teaching them all that I have commanded, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”.

“He who rejects you, rejects me. And he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me”.

So the question that would seem relevant is, “what did he command?”, and “what does it mean to reject them”.

How do I know that there was succession in terms of the keys to heaven, and the binding on earth in heaven, etc.?

Skeptictank

 

[skeptictank]

This is incorrect.

From Dominus Iesus:

So, why should I believe what these guys say?

Skeptictank

 

[jmcrae]

So the question that would seem relevant is, “what did he command?”, and “what does it mean to reject them”.

A summary of Christ’s moral teachings is found in the Sermon on the Mount, which we find in Matthew, chapters 5 through 7. We can also get a look at how Jesus means to judge us at the Judgement Day by looking at His description of it in Matthew 25, in the last half of the chapter (although the first half of that chapter is also really important, since it sets the scene).

At several points along the way, the Sacraments are alluded to, though not ever described in detail - it seems as though Jesus showed the Apostles how to do the Sacraments, and they didn’t see a need to write them down until much later on, and not as part of Scripture.

How do I know that there was succession in terms of the keys to heaven, and the binding on earth in heaven, etc.?

We find this most explicitly in Matthew 16:18, where Jesus quotes from Isaiah 22:22, when renaming Simon to “Peter” (which means “rock”) and where He tells Peter that he now holds “the keys.” The phrase He used there was almost a direct quotation of Isaiah 22:22, and Simon Peter would have understood right away that he was being given an Office that takes successors. In John 21:15-19, it becomes very, very clear that Peter’s office is to be “chief shepherd” of Christ’s Church, since that passage can have no other meaning.

 

[jmcrae]

So, why should I believe what these guys say?

Skeptictank

When people are explaining what they themselves believe, it’s okay to believe that they believe what they say they believe.

One is not required to agree with what they believe; only to acknowledge that what they say they believe, they actually believe.

Dominus Iesus teaches Catholics to believe that the Church has both visible and invisible components, and that some people are imperfectly joined to the Church who have no visible connection with it at all; these people are just as “saved” as people who are visibly in the Church, as long as they remain totally unaware that they should be visible members of the Church.

Of course, once they figure out that membership in Christ’s Church is one of the prerequisites of being a Christian, then all bets are off if they refuse to become members, since to reject Christ’s Church, while knowing that it is Christ’s Church, is to reject Christ.

 

[ProdigalSonOfOz]

The title pretty much says it. I was reading a catholic’s post wherein he/she said that anyone who rejects the church will go to hell. I thought that was interesting because as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

Both Catholics and protestants believe that “the church” is the body of Christ, the assembly of all believers.

However for there to be a group of “believers” there must be an accepted set of beliefs, thus to reject The Church is to reject this body of believers, their beliefs and ultimately Christ himself.

Now to the issue of authority. The NT church had a clear structure of authority.

Acts 15 Council of Jerusalem

James 5
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Acts 14
23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

I Timothy 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

I Peter 5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Philippians 1
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Thessalonians 5
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, **and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; **13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Hebrews 13
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

It would have been unimaginable for a Christian of the time to consider themselves truly Christian without fully accepting the authority that Christ himself established.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

The title pretty much says it. I was reading a catholic’s post wherein he/she said that anyone who rejects the church will go to hell. I thought that was interesting because as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

Pope John Paul II said that people like you were part of the Church, but not in full communion with the Church. He said nothing about you going to Hell though.

 

[elvisman]

So, why should I believe what these guys say?

Skeptictank

Oh, MAYbe because JESUS told you to:

**On the authority of the Catholic Church and the Magesterium (Matt. 16:17, 18, 19):
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."
**John 16:13-15
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
2 Thess. 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Only TWICE in Scripture does God breathe on or into man:
Once, when breathing life into Adam (Gen. 2:7) and here (John 20:22) when he gave his authority to the Apostles – the leaders of his Church.
In John 17:20-23, Jesus CLEARLY states that he intends for his Church to be united as ONE – not MANY – as he and the father are ONE.

 

[scylla]

Do you mind expanding on this statement? I don’t mean to split hairs but that statement could be understood several ways.

You bring up many objections, which cannot be answered in one sitting unless we focus on one point. This doesn’t mean that there are no answers but that I have a wife who doesn’t let me spend much time on the net, so I will quickly answer.
“Christ’s Church is the Church Jesus founded.”
An expansion of that is this…

Jesus came and taught us what we need to know for Salvation and then did what He needed to establish the relationship we need to participate in to be saved.

This would then be one teaching as He only came and taught one infallible belief system. Everything else would be man-made and would be attributing lies as God’s truth.
I as a Catholic do not have it, and you do not either as truth is not something we have but something we submit to.
Truth is one.
Gotta go I will try and type more later,

In Christ
Scylla