I
Image_of_God
Guest
Excellent analogy!
- Status
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,Excellent analogy!
Yes it is , because I know people who have done this! They would make me so angry that they could pass a class with only reading the tex.
I worked overtime and didnt do as well.
B
Blue_Serenity
Guest
I couldn’t have said it better myself. The church that Jesus bestowed upon Peter WAS the church of the body of Christ. Jesus told Peter to gather up all the believers to glorify and praise God, in His memory.
I don’t think the “church”, as Catholics define it, is what Jesus intended. I respect what Catholics believe but I think it doesn’t matter what denomination you belong to as long as your denomination holds the Truths that are mentioned in the Bible.
J
jmcrae
Guest
But isn’t the whole point of having a denomination, in the first place, to reject what came before?I don’t think the “church”, as Catholics define it, is what Jesus intended. I respect what Catholics believe but I think it doesn’t matter what denomination you belong to as long as your denomination holds the Truths that are mentioned in the Bible.
It’s not as if people create denominations out of friendship and love for the church that they are splitting away from. Normally, it’s because they hate the teachings they’ve been given in their old church, and they want to come up with new ones that they like better. “Inspired by the Holy Spirit” of course - but either there are 60,000 Holy Spirits, or else the Holy Spirit has a learning disorder of some kind, with all the contradictions in doctrine between all the different denominations.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
I am wondering if we have a different definition of where the Holy Spirit is residing
The bible says the Holy Spirit is in people not a “Church institution”. The people in the church institution or denom hopefully have the Holy Spirit in them. Do you or the CC believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside those who are saved or do you believe the Holy Spirit is within the CC walls(so to speak)?
B
Blue_Serenity
Guest
I understand how you could think that but it’s not how I view it. I believe we go to church to glorify and praise God and also to seek fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ. As long as the church denomination does not contradict scripture (God’s Holy Word), then it is acceptable to attend.
Each person was made different and one Trinitarian denomination might appeal to one person over another. (ex. Someone likes a more charismatic style and another might like a more traditional one.)
B
Blue_Serenity
Guest
Exactly!Hi,
I am wondering if we have a different definition of where the Holy Spirit is residing
I believe that if the denom follows scripture and doesn’t contradict God’s Word, then it is a church that teaches the Truth.
J
jmcrae
Guest
The Holy Spirit first came to the Church at Pentecost, and was given to the Apostles and their followers.Hi,
I am wondering if we have a different definition of where the Holy Spirit is residing
They passed it on through Baptism and Confirmation to those who followed their teachings. Those who are official teachers in the Church (the clergy) are given extra graces from the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in the priesthood, the diaconate, and the episcopate. This is given by the laying on of hands, in an unbroken line that goes all the way back to Christ Himself, when He ordained Peter to be chief shepherd of the Church, as we see in John 21:15-19.
Obviously, the Holy Spirit can also work outside the Church, but only for the purpose of bringing people into the Church. The Holy Spirit would never inspire anyone to leave the Church, or to start up their own man-made church in its place.
J
jmcrae
Guest
We have all this in the Catholic Church, without any necessity to divide up the Church - Charismatic Catholics, Latin-Mass Catholics, Ignatian Catholics, Carmelite Catholics, Eastern Rite Catholics, “Novus Ordo” Catholics, and all the rest are all still under the same Church authorities, and all following the same teachings, without having to divide into denominations.(ex. Someone likes a more charismatic style and another might like a more traditional one.)
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Although I dont agree with what you say I understand what you say except the above where I quoted.
What do you mean by the Holy Spirit can work outside the Church?
Would you agree then people outside the CC then have the Holy Spirit in them or is the Holy Spirit somehow outside of them hovering? Sorry Im trying to understand.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Without a higher authority than your personal opinion, how would you actually know which ones are “teaching truth” and which ones are misinterpreting Scripture?
How would you know that it wasn’t you that was misinterpreting Scripture, if you disagreed with someone else’s view of it?
I
Image_of_God
Guest
Sorry about that then.Hi,
Yes it is , because I know people who have done this! They would make me so angry that they could pass a class with only reading the tex.
R
rciadan
Guest
B
Blue_Serenity
Guest
That’s where you turn to a church family to help you.
A good church will have good leadership that serves the congregation and educates them in the Truth, according to Scripture.
W
water
Guest
I couldn’t agree more, Blue Serenity.That’s where you turn to a church family to help you.
A good church will have good leadership that serves the congregation and educates them in the Truth, according to Scripture.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
I am going to write this then I have to go. We believe that the Holy Spirit is our authority guiding us to the truth. When man’s word is added into the mix(tradition) that is where I believe things start to go wrong. Honestly, if you take away Sacred Tradition, the bible stands alone just fine!! Us humans didnt need to add anything too it. This is my personal opinion. Of course I know many many people that would agree with me. I may have not said this before this forum, but since I have learned much about the CC, I have discovered that I can not rely on Sacred Tradition to necessarily be the truth.
Im sorry and I dont mean to sound disrespectful, it is just how I am seeing it.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Yes I agree 100%That’s where you turn to a church family to help you.
A good church will have good leadership that serves the congregation and educates them in the Truth, according to Scripture.
J
jmcrae
Guest
The Church is that community of followers of Jesus which was at one time led by the Apostles, and is now led by their successors.Hi,
Although I dont agree with what you say I understand what you say except the above where I quoted.
What do you mean by the Holy Spirit can work outside the Church?
The Holy Spirit works through this Church community, guarding it from error, and reminding it of the truths of the faith that come from the Apostles. Members of this Church trust that the teachings of the Church are true because the Church is protected from error.
Individuals are not protected from error; only the Church is. There are times when the Pope is protected from promulgating error, but it’s not all the time, or even most of the time. He is the only human being on earth who is ever individually protected from error in this way, even sometimes. The rest of us rely on the teachings of the Church to protect us from error.
That’s how the Holy Spirit works in the Church.
But the Holy Spirit can also work outside of the Church, in order to bring people into the Church. For example, many RCIA candidates report that the Holy Spirit moved them to consider the Catholic Church, and actually directed them to come to RCIA meetings.
The Holy Spirit also works in other denominations to gradually bring them closer to the truth; for example, many Protestant denominations are getting the word on birth control and realizing that it is a bad idea - they are starting to teach against it, and encouraging their married couples to choose life. Other denominations are discovering the beauties of the Lectionary, and using it in their worship services in place of the “pick a random Bible verse” method of teaching.
J
jmcrae
Guest
You personally? Just you alone, or everyone, each individually? And if everyone, then why are there so many different denominations?
I agree with that. When human beings think they know more than God does, we get divisions in the Church.
The Book of Genesis stands alone just fine, too, but you probably don’t just restrict yourself to the Book of Genesis.
Sacred Tradition is also part of God’s Word; it’s not a human addition. Sacred Tradition is the words of Jesus. The Bible is that small selection of Jesus’ words that was written down. The Bible is a subset of Sacred Tradition - part of it; not something separate from it.
I think that if you keep praying about it and studying it, you will find that Sacred Tradition not only doesn’t contradict the Scriptures, it puts blazing lights on them that make even the most obscure passages to suddenly make sense.… I have discovered that I can not rely on Sacred Tradition to necessarily be the truth.
D
DianJo
Guest
Ya know, something struck me when I read this. What “you believe” you go to church for is actually not what God has taught us to do from the beginning of salvation history. I probably won’t get my point across but I’ll try:I understand how you could think that but it’s not how I view it. I believe we go to church to glorify and praise God and also to seek fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ. As long as the church denomination does not contradict scripture (God’s Holy Word), then it is acceptable to attend.
Each person was made different and one Trinitarian denomination might appeal to one person over another. (ex. Someone likes a more charismatic style and another might like a more traditional one.)
From the beginning, God has taught us to worship Him with sacrifice. It begins in Genesis with Abel’s sacrifice being more pleasing to God than Cain’s because it was a sacrifice of blood. All through the OT, God continues to expand on that idea with the Temple/priests. The Jews had many reasons for sacrificing to God, mainly for the atonement of sins, whether individual or as a people. Passover is a perfect example in that God is preparing the Jews for the ultimate sacrifice - Jesus.
Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, to reconcile us to Himself. Why would God teach us from the beginning to offer sacrifice and then provide us with the ultimate sacrifice and then suddenly say, “Oh, nevermind! You don’t have to offer sacrifice anymore!” He intended for us to use that final, ultimate sacrifice as a perpetual memorial sacrifice (anemnesis is the word used for remember and it means perpetual, memorial sacrifice) for our sins. It is the only sacrifice that will do, that is completely pleasing to God and will reconcile us to Him.
I’m sorry, the Jewish people don’t get it and unfortunately, it seems, neither do non-Catholics. Jesus is the extension, the fulfillment of Passover and we are to continue to offer that perpetual memorial sacrifice for all time as He instructed the Jews to do at passover. Christ didn’t come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.
So, how does a non-Catholic church service compare with what God has taught us to do from the beginning? The heart of worship to God is the final, ultimate sacrifice not singing and reading from the bible only. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not saying that what non-Catholics do is of no value, but really you can do that anywhere, anytime. I fear you miss the entire point of Christ’s sacrifice.
This sounds harsh, I know, and I’m really trying not to be but I don’t know how else to get the point of what I’m trying to say across. I think this goes to the very heart of the OP’s question; Why the Catholic Church? The Catholic Church is the only Church to continue to worship as God has instructed us - with the ultimate sacrifice. It’s not my intention to dis anyone’s practices but to point out the reason for God teaching us as He has done. If I’ve offended anyone, I apologize.
- Status