What is Christ's Church?

[jmcrae]

**Oh, wait. The Catholic Church does that! (The word “Catholic” means “world wide” or “universal.” **

Of which yours truly is a part of…according to Scripture. I am Protestant catholic. I am in the Church. To say that I am not in the Church is to call Jesus a liar and me a non-Christian. That is all there is to it.

Either you are protesting Christ’s Church (Protestant) or else you are in it (Catholic). There is no such thing as a “Protestant Catholic” - that is a contradiction in terms.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Yes, Baptists preach to Americans - and if they go out of the US, the first thing they do is teach the people how to read English, and how to do things the American way. And they are certainly not world wide.

Hi,
I have a friend who goes to my church(non-denom) who is a missionary and goes to Guatemala and recently Africa and Peru and uses an intrepreter to preach the gospel and that is it. She doesnt try to teach them anything American, just the Gospel of Christ:thumbsup: Actually our church supports many missionaries who do not belong to a baptist church.

I think you are generalizing too much. There are organizations in the US that any denom can join up with and become a missionary. The one my friend belongs to is E3 missions out of Dallas Texas. There are so many other groups I cant think of them all. I bettcha there are even some catholics in the bunch

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Either you are protesting Christ’s Church (Protestant) or else you are in it (Catholic). There is no such thing as a “Protestant Catholic” - that is a contradiction in terms.

My friend, you err. :tsktsk:

It has been declared on this very site that catholic (small c) means “universal”. I am a part of the universal Church that Christ PUT ME INTO THE MOMENT I WAS BORN AGAIN. I am protesting Roman Catholic Church (for good reason) teachings but I am not protesting Christ’s Church…I am in it! He PUT ME THERE WHEN I WAS BORN AGAIN! Therefore I am a Protestant catholic; another term for Christian.

To say that I am not in Christ’s Church is either a misinformed lie on your part or an accusation that I am not saved.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Either you are protesting Christ’s Church (Protestant) or else you are in it (Catholic). There is no such thing as a “Protestant Catholic” - that is a contradiction in terms.

Hi,
Gof forbid I protest Christ I will then no longer call myself a protestant and I will just call myself a christian:thumbsup: Which I prefer anyway. Because you are right protestant does mean you are protesting and I may not believe in all the CC teaches but that doesnt mean I am against the CC. I do think they teach the truth just not in all matters of doctrine.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,
Gof forbid I protest Christ I will then no longer call myself a protestant and I will just call myself a christian:thumbsup: Which I prefer anyway. Because you are right protestant does mean you are protesting and I may not believe in all the CC teaches but that doesnt mean I am against the CC. I do think they teach the truth just not in all matters of doctrine.

There is no such thing as partial truth - if it’s not all true, then it’s a lie.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

There is no such thing as partial truth - if it’s not all true, then it’s a lie.

And it’s all true that Jesus Christ put me into His Body (the Church) at the moment of salvation and the Holy Spirit SEALED me, therefore I am permanently in His Church. Anything you say to contradict this is…a lie.

 

[jmcrae]

To say that I am not in Christ’s Church is either a misinformed lie on your part or an accusation that I am not saved.

If you truly believe that you are following Christ, then you are joined to the Catholic Church in an invisible and imperfect way.

But if you know your history, then you know that Christ founded the Catholic Church. To reject His Church is to reject Him, as He explained to St. Paul, when he was still Saul, and breathing threats and murders against the Catholic Church in the name of God. Saul converted the very moment that he found this out, thus setting a good example for all to follow. (See Acts 22.)

“Why persecutest thou Me?” But Saul was not directly attacking God, but only the Catholic Church. Yet, Jesus (God) said, “Why persecutest thou Me?” Jesus identifies Himself with His Church. To attack the Church is to attack Christ - we have His word on it.

 

[jmcrae]

There is no such thing as partial truth - if it’s not all true, then it’s a lie.

And it’s all true that Jesus Christ put me into His Body (the Church) at the moment of salvation and the Holy Spirit SEALED me, therefore I am permanently in His Church. Anything you say to contradict this is…a lie.

Then why do you follow a man-made organization, instead? If you were in the Church when you “got saved” then please come back!!

 

[I_Leatherman]

There is no such thing as partial truth - if it’s not all true, then it’s a lie.

And it’s all true that Jesus Christ put me into His Body (the Church) at the moment of salvation and the Holy Spirit SEALED me, therefore I am permanently in His Church. Anything you say to contradict this is…a lie.

But the ancestors of the church you belong to separated themselves from His Church, (which is why they go by the name of ‘protestant’), and then declined several invitations to return when their demands were addressed and they no longer had any grievance against His Church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

If you truly believe that you are following Christ, then you are joined to the Catholic Church in an invisible and imperfect way.

But if you know your history, then you know that Christ founded the Catholic Church. To reject His Church is to reject Him, as He explained to St. Paul, when he was still Saul, and breathing threats and murders against the Catholic Church in the name of God. Saul converted the very moment that he found this out, thus setting a good example for all to follow. (See Acts 22.)

“Why persecutest thou Me?” But Saul was not directly attacking God, but only the Catholic Church. Yet, Jesus (God) said, “Why persecutest thou Me?” Jesus identifies Himself with His Church. To attack the Church is to attack Christ - we have His word on it.

Hi,

From what I understand and I think you would agree is that Christ is head of “The Church”. Where we differ I guess is who is part of the church. Christ’s church believes that He died and was resurrected so we can be reconciled with God and go to heaven–right? That is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which the Church is founded on. Do you agree with that?

Now if you look in Acts–when the Apostles are making all nations disciples(followers of Christ) what are they saying they have to do? Believe–repent and be baptised and that was their message of salvation. In that order and it really was that simple–there was nothing else they were being told to do to be saved. They were told to obey Christs commandments but that was after salvation.

So, if someone believed–and repented and was baptized then they were filled with the Holy Spirit and BAM they were part of"The Church".

As far as early church History I think sticking with Acts is the best way to go. Any history written down after that may be skewed toward one opinion or the other. My trust and faith lies in the truth of the bible.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But the ancestors of the church you belong to separated themselves from His Church, (which is why they go by the name of ‘protestant’), and then declined several invitations to return when their demands were addressed and they no longer had any grievance against His Church.

IMHO the protesters didnt have a problem with Christ’s Church, they had a problem with how the CC was abusing(for lack of a better word)Christ’s Church

 

[jmcrae]

From what I understand and I think you would agree is that Christ is head of “The Church”. Where we differ I guess is who is part of the church. Christ’s church believes that He died and was resurrected so we can be reconciled with God and go to heaven–right?

]

This is the essence of the Gospel message, true. But there is a great deal more to it than that. Every verse of Scripture and every word of the Holy Tradition is of equal importance.

That is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which the Church is founded on. Do you agree with that?

Actually it’s the Church itself that is the pillar and foundation of truth, if you look very carefully at the verse.

So, if someone believed–and repented and was baptized then they were filled with the Holy Spirit and BAM they were part of"The Church".

Yes. Believed what? All of the teachings of the Apostles, which are promulgated by the Church. Not just picking and choosing here and there, and not self-determining what is “essential” and what is not.

Filled with the Holy Spirit - and being able to know they are, without having to doubt or wonder, because of some people who have a false spirit, yet seem to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

And baptized into the same Church organization as the Apostles were in. Not a different one.

As far as early church History I think sticking with Acts is the best way to go. Any history written down after that may be skewed toward one opinion or the other. My trust and faith lies in the truth of the bible.

But it’s that later history that shows us that the Book of Acts is actually true. Without that later history to confirm that the Apostles were actually real people, we have no good reason to believe anything in the Book of Acts.

It could be a work of fiction, for all we know, unless we take into account the history that followed directly after them, and that continued on up to the present day. It’s the fact that we can trace back the Pope to Peter that we know that Peter was a real person - we know what year he died, and who buried him, and what they did next - and not just a fictional character made up by someone.

By looking at the other documents of the Church outside of Scripture, that came later, we can see what they were doing, and how they were following the teachings of the Apostles, as well as what they thought those teachings were.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

]

This is the essence of the Gospel message, true. But there is a great deal more to it than that. Every verse of Scripture and every word of the Holy Tradition is of equal importance.

How can you be sure that the “extra” things that are added to the gospel message are the Truth?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Even if they totally contradict each other? Isn’t there an objective standard of truth?

You betcha! It’s called the Bible!!!

jmcrae:

Mormons appear to have all the fruits of the spirit; are they Christians?

Why would you ask that???

jmcrae:

Well, then, shouldn’t we all be members of the Church that actually teaches all of what they taught? Doesn’t “believing” imply believing everything they say?

Why are you so hung up on a particular denomination? We are ALL members of Christ’s church, his body, and hence we all have a shot at salvation if we believe in Him and accept Him in our lives.
Why are you making this more difficult than it has to be?

 

[jmcrae]

How can you be sure that the “extra” things that are added to the gospel message are the Truth?

Because I read my history books (my favourite one is The Faith of the Early Fathers, by William Jurgens), and I see that the Church has believed these things right from the very beginning. Nothing has ever been added; these beliefs were always there.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Because I read my history books (my favourite one is The Faith of the Early Fathers, by William Jurgens), and I see that the Church has believed these things right from the very beginning. Nothing has ever been added; these beliefs were always there.

Hi,
Are these history books written by catholics? Or from a catholic point of view? Because I have read some history books as well that favor my point of view. So you see why relying on man is not necessarily a good idea. Dont get me wrong history is absolutely beneficial. When it comes to religion you can find history books skewed to one opinion over the other. I actually found a history book written by a catholic and a protestant. I have not read the whole thing. The one thing I have found extremely interesting is that so far noone has referred to anyone as Pope only Bishops. I would assume a catholic would have a hard time with but apparently not. In all fairness I have to finish it.

 

[jmcrae]

You betcha! It’s called the Bible!!!

But both groups use the Bible to support their opinions. Which one (if either) should I believe?

Why would you ask that???

Because Mormons say that they are Christians. Based on the “fruits of the spirit” argument, they actually have a pretty good case - low incidence of divorce, drug addiction, unwed pregnancies, no abortions, etc. - they do a lot better in these areas than the rest of us.

Why are you so hung up on a particular denomination? We are ALL members of Christ’s church, his body, and hence we all have a shot at salvation if we believe in Him and accept Him in our lives.
Why are you making this more difficult than it has to be?

I don’t think it’s difficult at all. I think we should all be members of the Church that Christ actually founded.

What I don’t understand is why anyone would want to join something else. And I don’t understand how a person could think that a Pentecostal and a Baptist (just examples; insert any two for the same results) are members of “the same invisible Church,” since they have such totally different beliefs from each other.

All we have to do is believe, sure - even if that were so, shouldn’t what we have to believe be the same things in every case?

If two people disagree on what we have to believe, in order to be considered Christians, then at least one of them is wrong.

This means that at least one of them does not believe what is necessary to believe, in order to be a Christian.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,
Are these history books written by catholics? Or from a catholic point of view?

The Faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens is a collection of writings from the time of the Early Church, going from about 50 AD to the 600s AD, translated into English, and organized by time.

Each letter or document has a short introduction that says where it was originally found, who translated it into English, and what year they think it was written. The documents themselves are pretty clear on who they’re intended for, and what they were expecting the people to do when they got the letter.

One of the most interesting documents in the book is a letter written by Justin Martyr to a pagan leader, explaining about the Christian worship service. His description of it sounds exactly like a Catholic Mass.

He also explains about how people get to become Christians, and that one sounds very much like the same RCIA process through which I became a Catholic, just a few years ago.

 

[I_Leatherman]

IMHO the protesters didnt have a problem with Christ’s Church, they had a problem with how the CC was abusing(for lack of a better word)Christ’s Church

What abuses caused them to leave Christs Church?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

If you truly believe that you are following Christ, then you are joined to the Catholic Church in an invisible and imperfect way.

But if you know your history, then you know that Christ founded the Catholic Church.** To reject His Church is to reject Him, **as He explained to St. Paul, when he was still Saul, and breathing threats and murders against the Catholic Church in the name of God. Saul converted the very moment that he found this out, thus setting a good example for all to follow. (See Acts 22.)

“Why persecutest thou Me?” But Saul was not directly attacking God, but only the Catholic Church. Yet, Jesus (God) said, “Why persecutest thou Me?” Jesus identifies Himself with His Church. To attack the Church is to attack Christ - we have His word on it.

You do know how serious it is to attack a Christian and try to destroy his faith? Thank you that you will stop. Notice how after God said those things to Saul, he became Paul and he was given grace from the Lord and THEN he became born again? Guess what? I have been given the same grace from God and have been born again. To attack false doctrine is scriptural; to tolerate it and attack those who fight against it is evil. It is also not very nice to compare a CHRISTIAN who rejects false doctrine to a murdering Pharisee who BECAME a Christian. Shame on you.