What is "Eastern Orthodox"?

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Catholicism can be read about and mostly understood.

Orthodoxy cannot. Something about Orthodoxy - you can read and read and read about it, but until you experience it, you’ll never ‘get’ it.

If you want to compare them, you’ll have to actually attend a service of each.

I will pray for your discernment. I was Roman Catholic and became Orthodox (Chrismated yesterday). Roman Catholicism is very logical, especially to a Western mind. If you’d like to hear about my experience with Catholicism and why I left, feel free to PM me.
Thank you, Rawb. I have not yet attended services at either Church. I plan to do so within the next month.

In Christ,
Greg

P.S. Please do PM me your experience of why you left Catholicism. I would greatly appreciate it.
 
Well from your beliefs, I’d say that you’d have a stronger belief in the dogmas of the Catholic Church (Purgatory for example is regarded as heresy by the Orthodox).
From my understanding (Eastern Orthodox posters, please correct me if I’m wrong), the Eastern Orthodox don’t call things heresy that has not been defined as heresy by an Ecumenical Council. That is why I was asking if I can still be Eastern Orthodox and believe in Purgatory. If Eastern Orthodox regard it as a heresy, I guess that cuts down my choices. 😦
But you also say that you prefer the structure of Orthodox parishes, there is a perfect solution for this. There are numerous rites which make up the Catholic Church, look into Eastern Catholicism the Eastern Catholic Churches are in communion with Rome, believe in Catholic dogma, but function like the Orthodox at the local level. Good luck, and welcome to the Faith! 👍
Thank you for the suggestion. I have my own issues about that, but now is not the time to ponder them. I want to get other things out of the way first.

In Christ,
Greg
 
From my understanding (Eastern Orthodox posters, please correct me if I’m wrong), the Eastern Orthodox don’t call things heresy that has not been defined as heresy by an Ecumenical Council. That is why I was asking if I can still be Eastern Orthodox and believe in Purgatory. If Eastern Orthodox regard it as a heresy, I guess that cuts down my choices. 😦
Well, if something obviously contradicts the received faith, bishops can declare it to be heresy without an Ecumenical Council. They could jointly put out an encyclical, or have a local council. Sometimes in modern America (especially with converts) the word can be used a little to liberally directed at people. There are several things that both Orthodox and RCs would regard as heresies like Sola Scriptura, Eternal Security, basically anything from the Mormons, etc. But there are some beliefs that the RCs hold that the Orthodox do consider heretical. Obviously, they would disagree.

Sometimes we Orthodox are accused of having no love in our hearts for the RCC or her communicants because we believe some of their beliefs are not Orthodox and don’t share the same gusto for union. I have been accused of such in the past. But just because someone is not Orthodox does not mean we hate them. On the contrary, Christ tells us to love all men and that’s what we strive to do. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Well, if something obviously contradicts the received faith, bishops can declare it to be heresy without an Ecumenical Council. They could jointly put out an encyclical, or have a local council. Sometimes in modern America (especially with converts) the word can be used a little to liberally directed at people. There are several things that both Orthodox and RCs would regard as heresies like Sola Scriptura, Eternal Security, basically anything from the Mormons, etc.
Thank you for the explanation. I would be interested to know what it is about Purgatory that Eastern Orthodox believe is heretical.

Is it possible for one bishop in the Eastern Orthodox Church to regard something as a heresy, while another bishop does not regard it as a heresy? I can imagine it would not really matter unless SOMEone made a big deal of the difference?
But there are some beliefs that the RCs hold that the Orthodox do consider heretical. Obviously, they would disagree.
Can you give a list of these heresies and a short description why they are regarded as heresies? I would really, really appreciate it.
Sometimes we Orthodox are accused of having no love in our hearts for the RCC or her communicants because we believe some of their beliefs are not Orthodox and don’t share the same gusto for union. I have been accused of such in the past. But just because someone is not Orthodox does not mean we hate them. On the contrary, Christ tells us to love all men and that’s what we strive to do. 🙂
No one should be accused of no love in their hearts for defending the truth and opposing heresy. But it might depend on the delivery.

In Christ,
Greg
 
Thank you for the explanation. I would be interested to know what it is about Purgatory that Eastern Orthodox believe is heretical.

Is it possible for one bishop in the Eastern Orthodox Church to regard something as a heresy, while another bishop does not regard it as a heresy? I can imagine it would not really matter unless SOMEone made a big deal of the difference?
In the past, when a heresy would crop in a diocese, a monastery or bishop would get the word out after trying to get them to recant. That bishop would tell other dioceses so they could handle it, too. If it gets too out of hand, then a council is called where the alleged-heretic will make his case, and the Orthodox will explain why it’s heresy.

The bishops tend to act of one accord in regards to these and other matters, but of course there are times when they don’t. I can’t think of an example off hand at the moment of one bishop saying something was a heresy without the others agreeing.
No one should be accused of no love in their hearts for defending the truth and opposing heresy. But it might depend on the delivery.
In Christ,
Greg
Amen. This sinner has gotten a little overzealous from time to time, but with God’s grace we can maintain a healthy, sober, fervor. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Thank you for the explanation. I would be interested to know what it is about Purgatory that Eastern Orthodox believe is heretical.

Is it possible for one bishop in the Eastern Orthodox Church to regard something as a heresy, while another bishop does not regard it as a heresy? I can imagine it would not really matter unless SOMEone made a big deal of the difference?
Well if an Orthodox Bishop were to do so, they would no longer be Orthodox. While Bishops have apostolic authority in the matters of discipline they cannot alter the faith by revising, doing away with, creating or accepting Dogmas from other Churches (such as the Catholic Church) unless this is done at an ecumenical council. Again if they were to do this, they (and the flock that continued to follow them) would be considered heretical, and out of communion with the Orthodox Church. To be Orthodox, you actually need to believe the same things as other Orthodox.
 
Thank you, Andrew. That was a very informative article. I notice that the article was specifically addressed to Protestants. Is there a difference between the Catholic and Protestant understandings of the Atonement?

Thanks.

In Christ,
Greg
Yes. Catholics do not subscribe strongly to the theory compared in that article (though it is based on the writings of a Catholic saint). We also accept the Orthodox of Theosis as being equal. It’s kind of a “both/and” situation for us. It is possible to be an informed, practicing Catholic and subscribe more strongly to either one.
 
Thank you for everyone’s answers so far.
I have a few questions for Orthodox - Do I need to believe in the Essences and Energies to be an Orthodox Christian? I don’t really understand it, and I find the Western doctrine on the unity of God more sensible and understandable.
Can an Eastern Orthodox please answer this question?
I also believe in what the Catholic Church calls “Purgatory.” It just makes perfect sense.
I was given some links to this issue from a kind EO gentleman. If I have any questions, I might ask them here.
I’m not sure about the infallibility thing yet, but I also believe that if there is a universal Church, it should have a head honcho here in earth.
Can I also get an answer to this question from the EO, please? Let’s assume I don’t accept the infallibility. Can I join the Eastern Orthodox Church with the belief that Christ himself set up the Church with a position like the papacy in mind?
I also believe in the Atonement, which - from what I have read in Eastern Orthodox Forums - the Eastern Orthodox reject (it’s almost hard to believe).
I guess there is really no issue between the EO and the RCC on this matter (though it seems the EO have an issue with the Protestants)?

In Christ,
Greg
 
Hello all.
My question is, what is it that makes one an Eastern Orthodox Christian?
a) Adhering to the major Ecumenical Councils in matters of dogma
b) Eastern view of the atonement/crucifixion/resurrection of Christ
c) Chrismation and baptism by a proper Orthodox priest.
d) Retaining the ancient style of liturgical worship
e) Veneration of Mary as Theotokos
f) Being theologically orthodox in faith
 
The debate over power and who controls what is actually contrary to the idea of Faith alone. Or even Faith through good works.

What is Faith through good works defined?

From the time Chirst dies on the Cross what happen the first 300 years to and through Christians?

What do the the first 300 years of Church Fathers say about Rome?

Doe’s the church authority need to Feed Christs Sheep?

Who was that Authority till Constantinople was build in 313?

Was that Apostolic Succession real the first 300 years?

Some seem to think Paul and others had equal authority. Yet the church gave way to Peters authority and right to pass the Key, is that incorrect?

In Context how do you view the Bible NT Matthew the Rock as Peter, the Keys of the Kingom, the power to bind and lose. Hows this fit in context with the rest of the Bible?

Purgatory without a doubt is spiritual. 👍

The idea and theology of what consists of Protestant denominations or our Orthodox church came from exactly where? And what makes them in any way authority over were who and how anyone should worship when the only truth is Christ, Bible, and real history. The cry I constantly here is Christ alone, no power over jurisdiction and lofty ideas that resonate Faith alone. Doesn’t the Vicar of Christ speak for all Christianity on Earth? Doesn’t the history of Christianity start at the Catholic Church? “If” there “should” be power of authority in regards to Christ by man, who should have it?

Many chose to view “churchs” per say. There was only One Catholic and Apostolic Church till Contantine. None of the first 300 years of Church Father deny Rome and its primacy. Then the power, wealth and arrogance comes into play.

Do you have “any” quotes from the first 300 years of the Church Fathers that contradict the authority of Primacy?

Does the Catholic Church do Good Works and stand as a beacon for morals through the centurys?

God Bless, Gary
 
Can an Eastern Orthodox please answer this question?
Please bear with me, as this response will be rather lengthy—so lengthy that I’ll have to post it in two parts. Forgive me for being so verbose.

The essence-energies distinction is a very difficult concept of theology indeed, and I don’t think anybody can be faulted for finding it hard to understand. Indeed, I doubt most Orthodox laymen really understand it too well. That being said, as a humble layman myself, I shall try to explain it to the best of my abilities.

Firstly though, a bit of history. The essence-energies distinction was explicitly defined by Gregory Palamas in response to the Hesychasts Barlaam’s attacks upon Hesychasm. Hesychasm (a particular technique of prayer) might not have been so controversial in and of itself had it not been for one of its claimed side-effects: Hesychasts were said to experience in what they believed was the Divine and Uncreated Light—the same light which the apostles saw at the Transfiguration of Christ on Mount Tabor. This then brought up theological questions about the nature of the Uncreated Light at Tabor.

In response to Barlaam’s objections, Gregory Palamas formalized (or one could also say clarified) the essence-energies distinction. It is important to realize that Gregory Palamas did not invent the distinction, as the Cappadocian Fathers already spoke of and distinguished between essence and energies. Much in the same way that terms like “hypostasis”, “ousia” and “physis” (in English, person, essence and nature respectively) started off as vague theological terms which were later given precise meanings so that they were all clearly defined by the time of Chalcedon, so to did Gregory Palamas clarify the distinctions between two terms, essence (“ousia”) and energy (“energeia”), which were widely in use by the Cappadocian Fathers centuries before his time.

Barlaam, brought up in the Latin Scholastic tradition was scandalized by the idea of humans experiencing the uncreated. In defense of the possibility that mankind could have direct experience of the uncreated, Gregory Palamas distinguished between the Uncreated Essence (ousia) of God, which is unknowable, and the Uncreated Energies (energeies) of God, which are how God interacts with this world. We are invited to participate in the Uncreated Energies of God, both in this life and in the life of the age to come, but we are never invited to participate in the Uncreated Essence of God. The Essence of God is by definition unknowable for it is beyond our comprehension and beyond existence itself.

Thus, the essence-energies distinction answered several important theological questions which were brought up by the Hesychast controversy: if God is fully unknowable, then how does God make his presence known to us; how can we hope to achieve salvation if we cannot participate directly in God’s eternal energies; furthermore, although this is a bit of a rhetorical question, if the Light of Tabor was uncreated, how could the apostles have seen it if the uncreated energies of God are truly unknowable (would that not imply then that the source of the light of the Transfiguration was not divine)?

With the first question, we can see that the essence-energies distinction beautifully shows that part of God is unknowable, His Essence, but that he can make himself known to us through His Energies which are every bit as uncreated and divine as his essence. This also answers the second question as it is believed that our resurrection and eternal life in the age to come will be effected by the reestablishment of our connection to Uncreated Energies of God from which we were severed due to the original sin of Adam. This, by the way, is why Christ is called the second Adam: through the incarnation, a human body and soul were united with and made incorruptible by the Uncreated Energies of God, showing us what the true image of perfect humanity is. Some Orthodox even believe that hell is a consequence of the exposure of those who hate God to His Energy and His Love, for to them, they shall burn like fire.

The ultimate importance in the essence-energies distinction is that it protects Orthodoxy from the heresies which involve putting too much of a gulf between humanity and God, such as pantheism and deism. Only a theistic view of God is correct to us, for our God is neither just a manifestation of the universe as some Hindus would believe, nor is He merely an “initial cause” who after creating the universe becomes disinterested in His creation and moves on to better things—our God is the almighty creator who, despite his awesome power is intensely interested in what he has made; loves with great intensity each and every one of his creations; and manifests that interest through His Uncreated Energies, despite the fact that we can never come to know His Essence.

I hope that this has helped perhaps, although I fear that it might just cause more confusion. Like I said, the essence-energies distinction is a complex one, and I someday hope that I might have a better understanding of it like that of Gregory Palamas. It reflects the venerable tradition of mystical theology in the Eastern Orthodox Church whereby experience of God, not logic, is the only truly acceptable way to come to know Him, and this of course, can only be accomplished through fasting, prayer, and sincere devotion to God. We are all on a long journey to acquire the Holy Spirit, as Christians, and we must all pray that we shall some day arrive at that point.
 
Can I also get an answer to this question from the EO, please? Let’s assume I don’t accept the infallibility. Can I join the Eastern Orthodox Church with the belief that Christ himself set up the Church with a position like the papacy in mind?
It all depends on what you believe about the papacy. If you wish to believe that the Pope was supposed to be God’s infallible representative upon earth who had supreme jurisdiction over all of the other bishops in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, then no, this view is not compatible with Orthodoxy. The Orthodox view is that the Pope was to be the first among equals (since he is no longer in communion with the Eastern Orthodox, the role of first among equals is now given to the Patriarch of Constantinople). First among equals means that he is given a special place of honor as a Bishop. At Ecumenical Counsels (which were, in the early Church, the only acceptable manner of making infallible dogma), the Patriarchs of the sees of Rome (who normally sent representatives due to Rome’s geographic isolation from the East), Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem were given special places of honor in terms of the respect with which their opinions were received, but their votes still only counted as one. The Pope’s responsibility, in the view of the Orthodox, is a pastoral one: he should provide for the unity of the Church, but not in a legalistic manner, rather a diplomatic one. Never would the first among equals be given the power to create doctrine at will through “ex-cathedra” statements, thereby bypassing the conciliar nature of the Church, nor the absolute control over the ordinations of Bishops which he has in the modern Roman Catholic Church. Those things are unacceptable to the Orthodox.

Again, I apologize that this response ended up being so long, but you ask some difficult questions 😉

In all humility,

Phillip
 
Thanks to Cavaradossi for an excellent explanation of essence/ energies. Two historical caveats:
  1. There’s some debate over whether Barlaam was really speaking for the “Latin” tradition.
  2. Palamas’s views were not universally accepted, and some historians argue that they were not that central to the Eastern theological tradition until modern times.
 
Never would the first among equals be given the power to create doctrine at will through “ex-cathedra” statements,
Great! Although we would not use the modern innovation “first among equals”
you are in accord with Catholic teaching on this issue. 👍
 
Thanks to Cavaradossi for an excellent explanation of essence/ energies. Two historical caveats:
  1. There’s some debate over whether Barlaam was really speaking for the “Latin” tradition.
  2. Palamas’s views were not universally accepted, and some historians argue that they were not that central to the Eastern theological tradition until modern times.
Yes, those are both good points. Barlaam purportedly received an education in the Latin Tradition of Scholasticism, but that does not mean he spoke for the whole tradition. This is true of any tradition of course.

Palamas’ views are indeed not “central” to the Theological Tradition of the East. Everything in the East revolves around our understanding of God and how that understanding affects our salvation. While Palamas’ essence-energies distinction is held in high regard, it is not given the same emphasis or weight as the contents of the seven Ecumenical Counsels which are considered to be much more groundbreaking. As I cautioned in my original statement, the essence-energies distinction was not made up by Palamas, only clarified, as similar language dates back to the Cappadocian Fathers.

All in all, both of the caveats you bring up are legitimate concerns, and I thank you for bringing them up.
 
Philip, thank you SOOO much for the response. Give me some time to soak it up. Just from a quick look, it’s going to be a good read.

Thanks again.

In Christ,
Greg
 
It all depends on what you believe about the papacy. If you wish to believe that the Pope was supposed to be God’s infallible representative upon earth who had supreme jurisdiction over all of the other bishops in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, then no, this view is not compatible with Orthodoxy. The Orthodox view is that the Pope was to be the first among equals (since he is no longer in communion with the Eastern Orthodox, the role of first among equals is now given to the Patriarch of Constantinople). First among equals means that he is given a special place of honor as a Bishop. At Ecumenical Counsels (which were, in the early Church, the only acceptable manner of making infallible dogma), the Patriarchs of the sees of Rome (who normally sent representatives due to Rome’s geographic isolation from the East), Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem were given special places of honor in terms of the respect with which their opinions were received, but their votes still only counted as one. The Pope’s responsibility, in the view of the Orthodox, is a pastoral one: he should provide for the unity of the Church, but not in a legalistic manner, rather a diplomatic one. Never would the first among equals be given the power to create doctrine at will through “ex-cathedra” statements, thereby bypassing the conciliar nature of the Church, nor the absolute control over the ordinations of Bishops which he has in the modern Roman Catholic Church. Those things are unacceptable to the Orthodox.

Again, I apologize that this response ended up being so long, but you ask some difficult questions 😉

In all humility,

Phillip
Didn’t the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople though, at the very least, claim to rule over the Church in Romania, Russia, and the other southeastern European states until they essentially unilaterally declared autocephaly and set up their own authorities?
 
Philip, thank you SOOO much for the response. Give me some time to soak it up. Just from a quick look, it’s going to be a good read.

Thanks again.

In Christ,
Greg
No problem. I wrote this when it was rather late at night, by the way, so I made one rather confusing error. The first two sentences of the third paragraph which read:
Firstly though, a bit of history. The essence-energies distinction was explicitly defined by Gregory Palamas in response to the Hesychasts Barlaam’s attacks upon Hesychasm
Should actually read:
Firstly though, a bit of history. The essence-energies distinction was explicitly defined by Gregory Palamas in response to Barlaam’s attacks upon Hesychasm
Phillip
 
Didn’t the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople though, at the very least, claim to rule over the Church in Romania, Russia, and the other southeastern European states until they essentially unilaterally declared autocephaly and set up their own authorities?
No. The EP had authority over some of those areas before granting them autocephaly, essentially administrative independence. The first church granted it back in 431 was Cyprus. For all intents and purposes, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem all acted administratively independent of one another, caring for the affairs in their own dioceses, but sharing the same faith and similar practices (though some differed). However, Cyprus was the first to be officially granted autocephaly, which it still has to this day.

Russia was granted it in the 15th century, I believe. The others came at different times. It was a very volatile time for many Orthodox during the 13-20th centuries with the onslaught of Islam, the Ottomans and the Communists. Possible reasons why it took so long for autocephaly to occur for many Orthodox areas. All in God’s providence, however. 👍

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Didn’t the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople though, at the very least, claim to rule over the Church in Romania, Russia, and the other southeastern European states until they essentially unilaterally declared autocephaly and set up their own authorities?
I think you misunderstand the powers of the Ecumenical Patriarch. Never did he “rule” over certain territories, rather he had pastoral care over new churches which were being established as part of the missionary work of his Patriarchate (also realize that other autocephalous churches are free to do their own missionary work. The Antiochians, Russians and the Ecumenical Patriarch have all participated quite fervently in missionary work for the last century at least, if not for longer in the case of Russia). The conversion of entire nations in the Eastern Orthodox Church has for the most part followed a predictable pattern. Firstly missionary efforts would begin. In this initial stage, a local church hierarchy would be set up using hierarchs and bishops imported from the mother church and the liturgy would be translated into the local language. Once a stable church structure has been established, the church would be granted autonomy (a step below autocephaly) The second step would be to replace all of the imported hierarchs and bishops with native hierarchs and bishops (achieved after a few generations perhaps). After this process was completed, the church would then be granted autocephaly, and would be elevated to the same rank as a patriarchate in terms of jurisdictional matters.

In the specific cases of some of the churches you have mentioned, I am not sure that I can really comment because my knowledge of the history of most of the Slavic churches is lacking. In the case of Russia, I do believe that its declaration of autocephaly was discussed with the Ecumenical Patriarch beforehand, and was accepted by the four Patriarchates. It is also worth mentioning that some autonomous churches did declare autocephaly unilaterally, but this was only usually under times of great political stress when some sort of barrier had come between communication with the mother church and the autonomous church tied to her (take for example the Orthodox Church of America, which was granted autocephaly from Moscow because of the impossibility that Moscow, then under communist rule, could help in its administration. That has now left the OCA in a rather messy situation where some sees like Constantinople do not recognize it as being autocephalous but other sees like Moscow do, but this is certainly an extraordinary situation, and one that we as Orthodox should all hope is resolved soon. America, as it seems wont to do, is mired in controversy yet again).
 
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