What is exactly and precisely "invincible ignorance"?

[thistle]

Can I back up a second and ask a question? If God judges us upon our death but the only way to go to Hell is by choice, what is God judging? Because I certainly wouldn’t choose Hell at that point. I’d finally have my necessary information that there is a God! At that point, I’d certainly realize my error but I assume God would also know why I didn’t believe. So, I am certainly dying in my sins unforgiven but Hell is MY choice? This just goes beyond making sense to me…sorry!

Or, are you saying that by dying unforgiven my choice was made in this earthly life and God is judging me condemned ? Which does kind of look like He is sending me to Hell. Any help or would you prefer a new topic? Thanks.

You choose Hell and eternal separation from God by committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentant. Once you are dead nothing changes that. You have freely made that choice. You cannot commit a mortal sin by accident. It is deliberate. It’s too late to stand before God and say you didn’t mean it and you want to change your mind based on whatever. You choose Hell and God accepts your choice. He does not force anyone.

 

[Pattylt]

You choose Hell and eternal separation from God by committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentant.

I have made many mistakes in my life and very remorseful that I made them. Those that involved other people, I tried as best I could to ask for forgiveness but being absolved of my “sins” is not an option for me. It would be extremely hypocritical to become a Catholic yet Catholic doctrine condemns me from any other path. Jesus is the only option and I am unable to believe that Jesus is God. So, I’m a hopeless case. Yet, I’m told that God is merciful and loving?

I accept that I’m hopeless. If God is the Catholic God then He’s placed conditions upon me I am incapable of fulfilling. I’m not sure I’d want to believe in that God. The strings attached shouldn’t be impossible for some people…it should be possible for everyone. It is possible for those that have the right faith yet millions are excluded. If God truly wants to save everyone, He actually would. If I’m going to believe in God it’s going to be a much different God.

 

[Ammi]

I accept that I’m hopeless. If God is the Catholic God then He’s placed conditions upon me I am incapable of fulfilling. I’m not sure I’d want to believe in that God. The strings attached shouldn’t be impossible for some people…it should be possible for everyone. It is possible for those that have the right faith yet millions are excluded. If God truly wants to save everyone, He actually would. If I’m going to believe in God it’s going to be a much different God.

You are right! The demands of eternal life are impossible to fulfill for us all. That’s why Jesus fulfilled it for men.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

It would be extremely hypocritical to become a Catholic yet Catholic doctrine condemns me from any other path. Jesus is the only option and I am unable to believe that Jesus is God.

I suspect that you wouldn’t think that just because someone isn’t a Christian that they are not going to be in heaven? Catholic doctrine doesn’t condemn you from any other path.

 

[Ammi]

You choose Hell and eternal separation from God by committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentant.

Man is already separated from God at birth. You seem to think we are born reconciled by God, and unless we commit a Mortal sin, we are already saved. Only by faith in seeking God and relying on His grace can anyone be saved. No one is already saved at birth, except maybe John the Baptist and Jesus’ mother. Whoever hears the Gospel yet does not believe, is not seeking God and relying on His grace.

Jesus is the only option and I am unable to believe that Jesus is God.

This is an assertion that we cannot agree with.

 

[Ammi]

Can you explain what you mean, in this context?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Information. is given, warning is given, and Choices are freely made…right?

My answer is that I never had a choice. For whatever reason, I am unable to believe in the supernatural.

Short answer, we always have a chance on this side of eternity.

ask God for faith. Faith is a gift from God. If you think you don’t have it, then ask Him for it. He won’t deny you faith.
Parrylt:

It’s not how I started…it’s how I ended up. I am unable to choose to believe in something I dont believe. It’s like asking me to believe gravity doesn’t apply to me. I just can not make myself believe that I’ll float.

Can’t believe or is it won’t believe?

Pattylt:

I’ve said before, I accept that I’m different from most people. Either my brain is just different somehow or I’m just an odd egg. There are many things I can believe without evidence if it still makes sense to me but God isn’t in the group. I assume it’s a character flaw. You can call it pride or stubbornness or radical skepticism but I went from a believer to a non over a four year period and have never been able to believe since.

IOW through a sequence of choices, you went from one reality to another.

I would just say,

you’re here, as a choice you make daily, … agreed?

I’m thinking, deep down there is faith still in you trying to come to the surface again. And it can’t do that if you instead, try to suffocate it and keep it buried.

Give it a chance to resurface in you. THAT is a choice you have to make

 

[Pattylt]

I think many Christians have a hard time understanding that some people can’t believe. It’s not a won’t…it really is a can’t. I don’t totally understand why I can’t, either. It’s just something in my brain. While I’m not an Aspergers, I am just barely above the spectrum…is that it? Well, I know Aspys that are also believers but many of them struggle with faith.

I do believe that my childhood indoctrination as an Orthodox Jew is a factor. Being raised so strongly in a God that is ONE makes it extremely hard to accept a Trinity God. Again, some have overcome it and converted so it isn’t a universal law or something.

I have never and will never say there is NO GOD. There very well may be. I’m not opposed to the idea, I don’t hate the idea. As a matter of fact, there have been many times it would have been a great comfort. It’s just that all my trying, praying and pleadings have come up empty. Most Christians have experienced otherwise. I envy those that have had moments of experiencing the Divine or God. I never have…I’m open to it. Perhaps God is still waiting for the right moment. I’m here waiting! Until? I remain agnostic. I’m at peace with it.

 

[Lys]

Your beliefs are not subject to your will.

This is an all-important observation. For anyone, who tries to assert otherwise, let them try to believe something that they currently find unbelievable.

For example that Satan is the “good guy”, and God is the “bad guy”. I wonder how this simple argument has been presented during the ages, and no believer was ever able to “believe” something that they find unbelievable. And yet, the same error pops up every time. I wonder, what is the reason?

 

[Ammi]

My answer is that I never had a choice. For whatever reason, I am unable to believe in the supernatural. It’s not how I started…it’s how I ended up. I am unable to choose to believe in something I dont believe. It’s like asking me to believe gravity doesn’t apply to me. I just can not make myself believe that I’ll float.

These attempts to compare the Gospel to illogical propositions without any reason behind them is an insult to the Gospel, and anyone who believes it.

 

[Pattylt]

These attempts to compare the Gospel to illogical propositions without any reason behind them is an insult to the Gospel, and anyone who believes it.

I apologize if my analogy was inappropriate. I certainly didn’t mean to be insulting or crass. It’s just very hard to explain to a believer that it’s not a matter of willing belief. Some beliefs just seem impossible for some people.

Please, accept my deepest apology.

 

[Ammi]

Thank you.

Try giving us an example which some people do realistically believe.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

You’re contradicting yourself here.

 

[Pattylt]

Ha! That’s a hard one!
How about flat earth ERs. While I think many of those proclaiming a flat earth are just trying to be contrarians, some really DO believe the earth is flat. I’m assuming you believe the earth is a ball (not being nit picky…ball is close enough). You can read their arguments. Many of their arguments make sense but could you actually believe it? Not just say you do but will yourself to actually believe that we live on a flat earth?

That’s all can come up with at the moment that isn’t religion based!

Within religion, could you will yourself to believe that God is not a Trinity?

 

[blackforest]

Came back to read some replies.

What on earth is “natural virtue?” We’re saved only through Christ, right? And those who reject Christianity choose evil, right?

 

[steve-b]

I think many Christians have a hard time understanding that some people can’t believe. It’s not a won’t…it really is a can’t. I don’t totally understand why I can’t, either. It’s just something in my brain. While I’m not an Aspergers, I am just barely above the spectrum…is that it? Well, I know Aspys that are also believers but many of them struggle with faith.

Actually it’s NOT hard to understand. The best example I can show is

Jesus own disciples who saw His miracles, STILL wouldn’t believe in Him and what He taught them, and they left Him never to return HERE And why did Jesus say they left? He knew before He said a word to them, that they didn’t believe. They didn’t have faith. Without faith and a faith in action, one can’t believe or please God.

Pattylt:

I do believe that my childhood indoctrination as an Orthodox Jew is a factor. Being raised so strongly in a God that is ONE makes it extremely hard to accept a Trinity God. Again, some have overcome it and converted so it isn’t a universal law or something.

I’m sure you have been shown plenty of resources to help you with this. If this has been given you already just say so

From a Jewish perspective, Does this help at all? A Jewish View of the Trinity Based on the Hebrew Scriptures - Jews for Jesus

Pattylt:

It’s just that all my trying, praying and pleadings have come up empty. Most Christians have experienced otherwise. I envy those that have had moments of experiencing the Divine or God. I never have…I’m open to it. Perhaps God is still waiting for the right moment. I’m here waiting!

May I suggest… BE A MASSIVE PEST.

Storm heaven with your requests without stopping. It will show your perseverance.

AND

Perseverance for the right reasons, is a good thing

 

[Pattylt]

From a Jewish perspective, Does this help at all

All I will add is yes, I know the arguments. When I was deep in my faith and as I was losing my faith, I had only ever read the Bible devotionally. Afterwards, I then began to study the critical historical methods. Those tend to be a once learned you can never unlearn them. I had already lost all faith before I discover this study of the Bible but, to be honest, it helped me immensely. However, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone of faith unless they were rock solid in their beliefs.

And kindly, a Jews for Jesus site is not accepted by most Jews as a Jewish perspective, just as you wouldn’t accept a Jehovahs Witness site as acceptable for Christians?

 

[steve-b]

From a Jewish perspective, Does this help at all

Pattylt:

And kindly, a Jews for Jesus site is not accepted by most Jews as a Jewish perspective, just as you wouldn’t accept a Jehovahs Witness site as acceptable for Christians?

I didn’t know that. Good to know. Thanks.

I won’t use them again

 

[steve-b]

I then began to study the critical historical methods. Those tend to be a once learned you can never unlearn them. I had already lost all faith before I discover this study of the Bible but, to be honest, it helped me immensely. However, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone of faith unless they were rock solid in their beliefs.

I agree. With many, in that method, find everything to argue about and really aren’t being responsibly critical nor historical.

 

[Ammi]

Ha! That’s a hard one! How about flat earth ERs. While I think many of those proclaiming a flat earth are just trying to be contrarians, some really DO believe the earth is flat. I’m assuming you believe the earth is a ball (not being nit picky…ball is close enough). You can read their arguments. Many of their arguments make sense but could you actually believe it? Not just say you do but will yourself to actually believe that we live on a flat earth?

But why would it matter if I believed the Earth was flat or not flat? What difference would it make to men, if the Earth was flat?

On the other hand, we can explain with sound reason a purpose why God had to become a man, so that Jesus could merit resurrection to life and power over the devil and flesh for others.

Within religion, could you will yourself to believe that God is not a Trinity?

Yes, of course. But not after being convinced He is a Trinity. You see, the Trinity is believed because the Gospel. I know the Gospel, therefore I accept the Trinity.