What is exactly and precisely "invincible ignorance"?

[blackforest]

But how do you say all of this without resorting to circular reasoning? It’s easy to hold these discussions Catholic-to-Catholic, as all of us in our inner circle dicker over Scripture and Church teaching.

But how do you communicate all of this to a broader marketplace of ideas that is already exposed to plenty of other religious and secular options? We’re going to need to get beyond:

Catholic: You should believe and live by the Gospels.
Non-Catholic: Why?
Catholic: Because the Gospels say so, and you’re going to hell if you don’t.

Really? Is that all we have?

Honestly, this factor, more than any other, makes me question my Catholicism. Love is unconditional. Only in abusive relationships do we hear, “Love me or you’re going to pay severe consequences.”

 

[Ammi]

I’m talking about the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit descending on the virgin Mary, Jesus Teaching about forgiveness of sins and His Father’s kingdom, being crucified to death, and rising on the 3rd day.

I’m not talking about specific Teachings for believers. Just the concise Gospel news about Jesus. With at minimum a desire for Christian Baptism corresponding to this Gospel.

That’s far from “secular”

 

[Nahar]

Really? Is that all we have?

Yes, that is all.

 

[Nahar]

I’m not talking about specific Teachings for believers.

But I do. You are free to disagree.

 

[Ammi]

The second portion of John 3:16 is usually sometimes missed.

John 3

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

I’m not talking about specific Teachings for believers.

But I do. You are free to disagree.

First you have to believe the Gospel, before you can except Teachings from the kingdom.

Otherwise, you are just picking and choosing moral Teachings and attributing them to (the righteousness of) men.

 

[blackforest]

Yes, that is all.

The Muslims are telling me the same thing. Why should I be Catholic instead of Muslim?

 

[blackforest]

There are non-Christians who’ve shown the light of Christ and behaved as Christians. There are Christians who’ve behaved like monsters, some of whom lurk in our own Church. Does this verse explain that?

Atheists are correct when they say that going to Church doesn’t make you a moral person. But I don’t go to be moral. I go to be accountable.

 

[Ammi]

There are non-Christians who’ve shown the light of Christ and behaved as Christians. There are Christians who’ve behaved like monsters, some of whom lurk in our own Church. Does this verse explain that?

You do not know their judgment. You dont know if some were doing Christ’s work, yet disbelieving the Gospel at the same time. We profess Faith and Works together. Not faith without works, or works without faith.

Atheists are correct when they say that going to Church doesn’t make you a moral person. But I don’t go to be moral. I go to be accountable.

Making a correct statement doesnt mean they are saved and doing God’s will in their lives.

 

[Nahar]

First you have to believe the Gospel, before you can except Teachings from the kingdom.

Nope. It does not matter, who says something, what matters is what has been said. Remember, from the mouth of the babes.

Otherwise, you are just picking and choosing moral Teachings and attributing them to (the righteousness of) men.

I choose everything that I consider proper.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

First you have to believe the Gospel, before you can except Teachings from the kingdom.

Nope. It does not matter, who says something, what matters is what has been said. Remember, from the mouth of the babes.

Otherwise, you are just picking and choosing moral Teachings and attributing them to (the righteousness of) men.

I choose everything that I consider proper.

Do you attribute the Teachings to God or man?

Part of the Gospel message is that we all have fallen short of God’s righteousness. We do not deserve His love or anything we share in this life at all. He has given us His commandments and even the sacrifice for breaking those commandments.

Genesis 32

I am not worthy of the least of all the steadfast love and all the faithfulness which thou hast shown to thy servant, for with only my staff I crossed this Jordan

Luke 17

So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, "We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty."

Grace cannot be insulted. We only can attain forgiveness and eternal life because Jesus suffered death.

 

[blackforest]

Making a correct statement doesnt mean they are saved and doing God’s will in their lives.

Did I claim otherwise?

The theology of coercion defies all God-given reason. I love my Church. But perhaps I’d make a better Episcopalian, after all.

 

[steve-b]

But how do you say all of this without resorting to circular reasoning? It’s easy to hold these discussions Catholic-to-Catholic, as all of us in our inner circle dicker over Scripture and Church teaching.

But how do you communicate all of this to a broader marketplace of ideas that is already exposed to plenty of other religious and secular options? We’re going to need to get beyond:

How are things different from the 1st century, trying to convert pagans on the one hand, and the Jews of that day on the other hand? Remember, evangelizing in the first century and beyond got you a quick trip to be fed to the lions

Remember Jesus orders in the beginning

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons…

Why are THEY lost?

These are the first people of the covenant.

blackforest:

Catholic: You should believe and live by the Gospels.
Non-Catholic: Why?
Catholic: Because the Gospels say so, and you’re going to hell if you don’t.

Really? Is that all we have?

as you know, there’s a bit more to it than that.

blackforest:

Honestly, this factor, more than any other, makes me question my Catholicism. Love is unconditional. Only in abusive relationships do we hear, “Love me or you’re going to pay severe consequences.”

As I said previously

Jesus said to His “disciples” more than the 12,

Jn 6:
53…“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

Is Jesus being spiritually coercive ?

and

is it wrong to conclude from what Jesus said here, that "everybody must believe and practice 100% of those teachings or else go to hell"

You didn’t answer the questions?

AND

what followed in that episode, Jesus disciples (not the 12) but the others who were following Jesus, said to Jesus, what He was teaching them about the Eucharist was not only hard to listen to, but they weren’t going to listen to it and they left Jesus not to follow Him again.

What did Jesus do?

He let them go. He didn’t go afer them. He didn’t try to convince them. He knew before He said a word to them that these disciples would leave because they had no faith. Without faith one can’t believe. That episode, with the disciples walking away from Jesus, saying to His face, we’re not going to believe, and Jesus let them walk away, IMV is one of the scariest passages in scripture

If one can’t believe, they should ask for faith.

 

[Ammi]

I’m not sure what the “Theology of Coercion” is.

Have I done this?

I have tried to distinguish the Gospel from “Church Teaching” in order to share the goodness of God.

Scripture itself warns about rejecting this message of profound grace in Jesus.

 

[blackforest]

is it wrong to conclude from what Jesus said here, that "everybody must believe and practice 100% of those teachings or else go to hell"

You didn’t answer the questions?

Perhaps because I’m not debating but seeking genuine answers? Yes, it sounds terribly coercive.

is it wrong to conclude from what Jesus said here, that "everybody must believe and practice 100% of those teachings or else go to hell"

Asking Catholics on CAF about contraception will quickly disabuse that statement.

On the other hand, it’s frustrating engaging a lot of Catholics on this.

Me: My friend uses contraception. She finds nothing wrong with it and isn’t Catholic, so she won’t repent.
CAF: That’s a mortal sin!!!
Me: So is she going to hell?
CAF: (Rapidly backpedaling). Well, no one really knows.

If one can’t believe, they should ask for faith.

Again, the Muslims say the same thing. Why shouldn’t I believe them over you?

 

[blackforest]

Scripture itself warns about rejecting this message of profound grace in Jesus.

People who decide it doesn’t make sense or isn’t compelling are getting “warnings” about rejecting the message. That’s coercive. “Believe this or else.”

 

[blackforest]

What I really need to do is see a priest about this. Sometimes they provide clarity that (no offense) lay people cannot.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

Scripture itself warns about rejecting this message of profound grace in Jesus.

People who decide it doesn’t make sense or isn’t compelling are getting “warnings” about rejecting the message. That’s coercive. “Believe this or else.”

Well you cant have both things. Reject grace, and receive grace. The Apostles had the very difficult task of preaching some hard news along with the good. They gave up their lives to spread the Gospel. Because their Lord did first.

 

[Ammi]

If you find more credibility in a priest, go for it. Or if you know one who speaks in a way you understand.

I’ve heard many missionarie’s testimonies. I didnt find them to be preaching fear and coercion, but truth and reality about ourselves and God. His grace is what I am thankful for. Maybe because I’ve done such terrible sins? Who is forgiven much, loves much.

 

[steve-b]

is it wrong to conclude from what Jesus said here, that "everybody must believe and practice 100% of those teachings or else go to hell"

You didn’t answer the questions?

blackforest:

Perhaps because I’m not debating but seeking genuine answers? Yes, it sounds terribly coercive.

Well,

All I can say, We need to remember who is setting the rules…right?

When God says for us to do something or He won’t save us, He’s giving us an opportunity to use the free will He gave all of us to either obey or disobey Him.

AND

Consequences, either good or bad, follow how we use our free will…

is it wrong to conclude from what Jesus said here, that "everybody must believe and practice 100% of those teachings or else go to hell"

blackforest:

Asking Catholics on CAF about contraception will quickly disabuse that statement.

On the other hand, it’s frustrating engaging a lot of Catholics on this.

Have you not seen the arguments against the use of artificial contraception, vs being for, natural family planning?

blackforest:

Me: My friend uses contraception. She finds nothing wrong with it and isn’t Catholic, so she won’t repent.
CAF: That’s a mortal sin!!!
Me: So is she going to hell?
CAF: (Rapidly backpedaling). Well, no one really knows.

As I asked previously,

have you not seen the arguments against artificial contraception, and for natural family planning? Without that knowledge, one might be able to skate on ignorance. I say might, because one might be fully aware of what they are doing.

So I’ll say it conditionally,

IF​

someone honestly doesn’t know the actual mechanism at work in artificial contraception, and all the repercussions involved, in it, they would benefit immensely having that knowledge. AFTER One is knowledgeable of the truth, AND does what’s wrong, anyway THEN they are culpable of their wrongs they do.

If one can’t believe, they should ask for faith.

blackforest:

Again, the Muslims say the same thing. Why shouldn’t I believe them over you?

Paul’s argument cuts to the chase

1 Corinthians 15:13-23

And Muhammad, the inventor of Islam? Can a Muslin use Paul’s argument to fit their religion?