What is Freemasonry

[marywarfield]

How about the plot of the Catholic Church and the King of France to murder and disband the Knights Templar in order to seize their wealth? I see that there are some on here that have short memories or they wish to forgot certain parts of history.

The Catholic Church condemns free masonry. We
are not to join. That is our belief only. You
do not need to hold it.

 

[seanman611]

The Catholic Church condemns free masonry. We
are not to join. That is our belief only. You
do not need to hold it.

Indeed, but to present freemasonry as a hostile group that is bent on destroying the Catholic Church is silly. My point was to point out that the Catholic Church hasn’t been innocent in all its dealings with freemasons or with the forerunner to the freemasons, the Templar Knights.

 

[marywarfield]

Indeed, but to present freemasonry as a hostile group that is bent on destroying the Catholic Church is silly. My point was to point out that the Catholic Church hasn’t been innocent in all its dealings with freemasons or with the forerunner to the freemasons, the Templar Knights.

Oh but already you launch an attack with untruth.
Not only did the guilds of artisans such as masons exist
prior to the advent of the Templars and Hospitallers but they co existed
alongside as well.

At the time you speak of it was quite common
for the artisan guilds including masons to parody
the church and the Mass etc. awful behavior especially
in France.

 

[seanman611]

Oh but already you launch an attack with untruth.
Not only did the guilds of artisans such as masons exist
prior to the advent of the Templars and Hospitallers but they co existed
alongside as well.

Yes, there have been literal guilds of masons and artisans stretching back thousands and thousands of years ago. However, the freemasons organization is not a literal masons/artisans guild. The fraternal organization of freemasons came out of the ashes of Templar Knights (and were based on masonic guilds), who were all but destroyed by the greed of the Catholic Pope Clement and the King of France.

At the time you speak of it was quite common
for the artisan guilds including masons to parody
the church and the Mass etc. awful behavior especially
in France.

So, the isolated incidents of individuals and their behavior is good enough to condemn the whole of something then? If that is the case, then every religious and non-religious organization in the world stands to be condemned. Also, please show me historical evidence that the Templar Knights mocked and plotted against the Church, anything else is just sidetracking this conversation. There is just no way to justify the destruction of the Templar Knights at the hands of the French Crown and the Papacy. The Freemasons came out of these guilds and based a lot of ceremony on these guilds, however, they are not one and the same.

 

[marywarfield]

Yes, there have been literal guilds of masons and artisans stretching back thousands and thousands of years ago. However, the freemasons organization is not a literal masons/artisans guild. The fraternal organization of freemasons came out of the ashes of Templar Knights, who were all but destroyed by the greed of the Catholic Pope Clement and the King of France.

So, the isolated incidents of individuals and their behavior is good enough to condemn the whole of something then? If that is the case, then every religious and non-religious organization in the world stands to be condemned. Also, please show me historical evidence that the Templar Knights mocked and plotted against the Church, anything else is just sidetracking this conversation. There is just no way to justify the destruction of the Templar Knights at the hands of the French Crown and the Papacy. Also, these mason guilds were NOT the freemasons organization that come out of the destruction of the Templar Knights.

I don’t know where you get your history. You state
theories as facts lol.

There were two types of guilds for masons- rough and freestone.
Freestone were the more highly skilled and are the
original “Freemasons”.

The idea that somehow free masons were knights Templar
is nothing more than a nutty conspiracy theory that
has been expounded by anti Catholics, the whore of
Babylon types and free masons themselves.

At no time has there ever been any actual link established.

 

[seanman611]

I don’t know where you get your history. You state
theories as facts lol.

There were two types of guilds for masons- rough and freestone.
Freestone were the more highly skilled and are the
original “Freemasons”.

The idea that somehow free masons were knights Templar
is nothing more than a nutty conspiracy theory that
has been expounded by anti Catholics, the whore of
Babylon types and free masons themselves.

At no time has there ever been any actual link established.

This is absolutely false. The masons you speak of were “operative” masons (true stone masons). Operative freemasons and the Templar Knights enjoyed a long long history together as it was these operative guilds that built all of their buildings. The connection goes way back and this connection remained before they were condemned and after they were condemned, there is a TON of information to back this up. You even have said that these guilds and the Templar Knights operated side by side.

However, the mason guilds that intermingled with the Templar Knights changed from being “operative” to being “speculative” some centuries after the arrest of the Templar Knights, thus they were no longer true stone mason guilds. These new “speculative” Masonic Lodges continued to operate with the Knights Templar and many of the members, who lived in secret, joined this new speculative form of Masonry. So yes, the old mason guilds share a strong connection with what came later in the form of speculative masonry.

 

[marywarfield]

What the Church HAS said and what it says now
about Freemasins, the Scottish Rite etc. And why
there was temporary confusion in the seventies and
eighties.

No.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BACAFM.HTM

 

[marywarfield]

This is absolutely false. The masons you speak of were “operative” masons (true stone masons). Operative freemasons and the Templar Knights enjoyed a long long history together as it was these operative guilds that built all of their buildings. The connection goes way back and this connection remained before they were condemned and after they were condemned, there is a TON of information to back this up. You even have said that these guilds and the Templar Knights operated side by side.

However, the mason guilds that intermingled with the Templar Knights changed from being “operative” to being “speculative” some centuries after the arrest of the Templar Knights, thus they were no longer true stone mason guilds. These new “speculative” Masonic Lodges continued to operate with the Knights Templar and many of the members, who lived in secret, joined this new speculative form of Masonry. So yes, the old mason guilds share a strong connection with what came later in the form of speculative masonry.

You do realize everything you state here as fact is actually
conjecture. There is no evidence anywhere to back your
claims. It is, however, a popular trend on the history.channel that
bastion of anti catholic intelligence.

The reality is free masonry has historically been
severely anti catholic. It wasn’t until the most recent
century that the Kodosh- Third Degree stopped
ritually squashing the papal tiara underfoot. Lol.
My grandfather squished a papal tiara in Los Angeles
in 1928…

So please- don’t try to pull the wool over the eyes
of an old sinner.

 

[marywarfield]

He Masins themselves have claimed to be the prime
movers or at least involved with: the Knights Templar,
The Hospitallers, the original pyramid builders, the designers
and builders of Noah’s Ark, to belong to an ancient
group of "elite Christian disciples created by Christ in
which he truthfully denied to John that He was God
after telling the masses of “dullards” that he was. "( a german
lodge practice).
The origins of Masonry are completely ambiguous,
their constitutions in the 1700s read like a Greek myth
or fairy take and Albert Pike himself in 1891 was rabidly
anti catholic.

Any attempts to p(name removed by moderator)oint anything on Masons is
impossible and of course the majority of Masons
today wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to mortar
two bricks together as they ceased to do anything
except develop the most absurdly complicated and
entangled web of philosophy, rituals, etc that vary
incredibly from one place to another.

 

[seanman611]

You do realize everything you state here as fact is actually
conjecture. There is no evidence anywhere to back your
claims. It is, however, a popular trend on the history.channel that
bastion of anti catholic intelligence.

It may be popular conjecture, but what happened to the Templar Knights? Many historians believe that they used the networks of the stone masons in order to survive. Considering the vast networks of the stone mason guilds, it makes perfect sense for the Templar Knights to have done this.

The reality is free masonry has historically been
severely anti catholic. It wasn’t until the most recent
century that the Kodosh- Third Degree stopped
ritually squashing the papal tiara underfoot. Lol.
My grandfather squished a papal tiara in Los Angeles
in 1928…

So please- don’t try to pull the wool over the eyes
of an old sinner.

I have studied the Kadosh Degree and what you mentioned is only a part of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite. However, there is no evidence that a Papal Tiara is/was smashed at any point in this degree. Also, rather ironically, there is no mention of any papal hostilities or a papal tiara smashing in Albert Pike’s commentary on the degree. I’m not saying that your grandfather didn’t smash something, but I’m doubting that any papal tiara was smashed. There is just no evidence to back it up, only more hysteria promoted by those who wish to spread misinformation.

Also, I’ve addressed your posts and I noticed you are not addressing mine:

*So, the isolated incidents of individuals and their behavior is good enough to condemn the whole of something then? If that is the case, then every religious and non-religious organization in the world stands to be condemned. Also, please show me historical evidence that the Templar Knights mocked and plotted against the Church, anything else is just sidetracking this conversation. There is just no way to justify the destruction of the Templar Knights at the hands of the French Crown and the Papacy. *

I would like to get you comments on this. No organization is without bad people, mistakes, and sin, however, we shouldn’t pretend like the masons are fully responsible for the sour relationship between themselves and the Catholic Church.

 

[marywarfield]

It may be popular conjecture, but what happened to the Templar Knights? Many historians believe that they used the networks of the stone masons in order to survive. Considering the vast networks of the stone mason guilds, it makes perfect sense for the Templar Knights to have done this.

I have studied the Kadosh Degree and what you mentioned is only a part of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite. However, there is no evidence that a Papal Tiara is/was smashed at any point in this degree. Also, rather ironically, there is no mention of any papal hostilities or a papal tiara smashing in Albert Pike’s commentary on the degree. I’m not saying that your grandfather didn’t smash something, but I’m doubting that any papal tiara was smashed. There is just no evidence to back it up, only more hysteria promoted by those who wish to spread misinformation.

Oh come on. Pike is famous for his hatred of the Pope.
I suggest before you continue in this vein that
you read the other side of the story.
The Church has been around a lot longer than you
or I and has the annoying habit of being able to
back it’s claims lol.

Knights Templar
newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm
Freemasons
newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm

 

[seanman611]

Oh come on. Pike is famous for his hatred of the Pope.
I suggest before you continue in this vein that
you read the other side of the story.
The Church has been around a lot longer than you
or I and has the annoying habit of being able to
back it’s claims lol.

Knights Templar
newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm
Freemasons
newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm

Either back up your claims or don’t make them. Also, you are still ignoring my questions about what justification the Papacy had in destoying the Templar Knights.

Furthermore, I’ve already read the Catholic hysteria regarding the freemasons, just because the Church says so doesn’t work for me nor does it work for everybody. I got enough of the Church says so mentality when I belonged to the Jehovah’s Witness cult. I like evidence, because “so and so” says so doesn’t cut it for me.

 

[marywarfield]

Either back up your claims or don’t make them. Also, you are still ignoring my questions about what justification the Papacy had in destoying the Templar Knights.

Furthermore, I’ve already read the Catholic hysteria regarding the freemasons, just because the Church says so doesn’t work for me nor does it work for everybody. I got enough of the Church says so mentality when I belonged to the Jehovah’s Witness cult. I like evidence, because “so and so” says so doesn’t cut it for me.

Doesn’t work for me either. But I do know the Church’s
scholastic achievements, I’ve seen the Vatican library
and I know if anyone can prove its claims
in history it’s the Church.

Peace to you.

 

[seanman611]

Doesn’t work for me either. But I do know the Church’s
scholastic achievements, I’ve seen the Vatican library
and I know if anyone can prove its claims
in history it’s the Church.

Peace to you.

Yes and in the link you provided, it says that false confessions were tortured out of Templar Knights by the Church and the King and that there is only contradictory evidence regarding the guilt of the Templar Knights. Just because the Catholic Church made an egregious mistake in regards to the Knights Templar doesn’t mean the Church is evil or wrong in its truth claims, however, many Catholics like to pretend like they don’t have dirty laundry.

 

[marywarfield]

Yes and in the link you provided, it says that false confessions were tortured out of Templar Knights by the Church and the King and that there is only contradictory evidence regarding the guilt of the Templar Knights. Just because the Catholic Church made an egregious mistake in regards to the Knights Templar doesn’t mean the Church is evil or wrong in its truth claims, however, many Catholics like to pretend like they don’t have dirty laundry.

In true Freemason fashion you have thrown attention
away from the Masons and attacked the Church. Case closed.

 

[seanman611]

In true Freemason fashion you have thrown attention
away from the Masons and attacked the Church. Case closed.

LOL, the link you provided from New Advent admitted that the Church did all those things! I simply came to this thread to explain the truth about freemasons and I got wrapped up into responding to silly attacks and conspiracy theories against the fraternity.

You are just one of those Catholics that cannot admit that the Church has dirty laundry.

 

[marywarfield]

LOL, the link you provided from New Advent admitted that the Church did all those things! I simply came to this thread to explain the truth about freemasons and I got wrapped up into responding to silly attacks and conspiracy theories against the fraternity.

You are just one of those Catholics that cannot admit that the Church has dirty laundry.

And you are just one of those Masons out to prove it does.
Now- maybe the next time we say masons are
anti catholic you can prove your Christian love by
discussing oh idk the crusades? The inquisition? Child
molesting priests?

 

[TheSaleBoat]

If any Mason who still believes that Masonry is based on the word of God, he should continue to read the following, remembering the author, Pike, is a man still respected by the brotherhood, the Masons.

On July 14, 1889, he issued formal written instruction to the “23” Supreme Councils of the world. Here he gives us a very good look at the inner order of Masonry. As follows:

“That which we say to the crowd is ‘we worship God’, but it is the God that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors, General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees, the Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luceferian doctrine.”

Occult Theocracy - Author, Historian Edith Starr Miller
p. 220

Pike intended the degrees leading up to the thirteenth degree to serve as a training school to gradually condition and prepare the candidate for the ultimate acceptance of Luceriferic initiation.

In Masonry, every thing has a double meaning. Thus, the candidate is practicing occultism throughout his degrees without knowing it. False interpretations are given to keep him from suspecting the institution to be anything less than noble and upright in purpose.

This deception, this false interpretation is called allegory. Allegory is defined as; something where the language is one thing and the meaning is another.

Encyclopedia of Freemasonry - Dr. Albert Mackey
p. 62

When we speak of mysticism, it is defined as “one who practices mysticism, i.e., magic, occultism, witchcraft. According to the New Columbia Encyclopedia, a mysticism is “the practice of…magic, occultism or the esoteric…” Included in the mystic tradition were the Hermetic philosophers and the alchemist.” You will find them constantly in New Age and Masonic writings.

The reason I put the brief information on the New Age is because it figures very prominent in the New World Order! That’s right folks, and it doesn’t take long to figure that out.

But you are at the advantage, because the research is being done for you in this document, together with the sources applied. You have only to research my sources.

The secret doctrine teaches that Jesus was born an ordinary man and that he became Christ later. He did not come as Christ in the flesh.

THE MEANING OF MASONRY - Lynn Perkins
P. 53

It is worthy to remember that although there are a lot of decent people in the Lodge, in a spiritual sense they are not aware of that they are doing, at least some of them, for it is the spirit of darkness that has control over them. Time back I realized the above… If they would only understand how Satan can easily deceive and eventually destroy, they could easily divorce themselves from the above and have a true peace that they could never have at present.

You may find some references here: delusionresistance.org/christian/masonry.html
or here
biblebelievers.org.au/masonic1.htm

 

[TheSaleBoat]

If you want power in this world, from this world and below, become a mason.

If you want eternal salvation and grace from above, humbly turn to Christ’s Infinite Love and Divine Mercy.

 

[andrewstx]

Yes and in the link you provided, it says that false confessions were tortured out of Templar Knights by the Church and the King and that there is only contradictory evidence regarding the guilt of the Templar Knights. Just because the Catholic Church made an egregious mistake in regards to the Knights Templar doesn’t mean the Church is evil or wrong in its truth claims, however, many Catholics like to pretend like they don’t have dirty laundry.

The Knights Templar were murdered and tortured for one reason. So the French King could confiscate their money.