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EvangelCatholic
Guest
I think Lutherans, in general, are strongly discouraged or forbidden to join the Freemasons though the reasons may not longer be relevant today.
- Status
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seanman611
Guest
Not at all, but when you frame the argument around what a few bad apples have done and use that to discredit an entire organization, then you had better make sure that your own back yard is pretty darn clean. Personally, I find no value in arguing who was the most corrupt and what organization/church was the dirtiest. No organization/church is perfect and none has a perfect past. Also, if you look into my post history and check out my posts on the CARM Forum, you will see that I spend a far greater amount of time defending and usually agreeing with Catholics.
Personally, it bothers me that those who are not Masons and have never been Masons are the ones that try to be the experts on what Masonry is. I wish I could report something much more interesting to the curious posters on here, but there is no devil worship or human sacrifices. However, there is a lot of community and charity work that is done and we do encourage members to attend church services, whether it be Catholic, Protestant, or anything in-between.
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seanman611
Guest
If you belong to the LCMS, WELS, or ELS then that is correct. The ELCA and the moderate Lutherans that left the ELCA are welcoming of freemasons.
For the LCMS, it comes down to freemasonry being seen as a religion and much of their documents that they use contain sources that have proven to be hoaxes and they take quotes out of their original context. Furthermore, Masons have successfully defended that they are not a religion in the Supreme Court of Nebraska. Personally, I think that Masonic bans comes down to jealousy more than anything. The Church doesn’t want to compete with another organization for a person’s time and money.
I really wish I would have saved the article that contained the Masonic response to the LCMS, but I’m having trouble finding it at the moment.
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marywarfield
Guest
The CARM forum!!! Hahahaha. Who
wastes time with the CARM forum? Not anyone with
any serious intentions.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Thanks for the up-to-date info. I was raised in the Missouri Synod and well recall that the Masonic Lodge was identified as off limits to Lutherans. I don’t know about the ELCA “welcoming” freemasons but the issue is likely not a concern any more.
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seanman611
Guest
We are in agreement, believe me. However, I find that there are many untruths being promoted there against the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church. Even though the place is a troll fest, I do find it worth my time to try to correct and educate against misconceptions. That said, I’ve made many friends there who have a genuine interest in the search for truth.
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seanman611
Guest
Correct. I didn’t mean to say that the ELCA rolls out the red carpet for us or anything like that, but there are no positions for or against the Masonic Lodge and there are many ELCA pastors who are also Masons.
The Anglican Communion is very similar in that regard, there are no positions for or against and there are Anglican priests who are freemasons.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
I think the fact that it has received such extensive criticism and that even Benedict XVI, as a cardinal, was quite clear in his opposition to it that Catholics should consider the ban very seriously and not just dismiss it.
While there are of course wonderful people in Freemasonry, as an institution espouses a form of religious indifferentism that is contrary to all forms of Christianity. To me that is sufficient to discourage faithful Christians from joining.
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seanman611
Guest
This is false (except that there are wonderful people in Masonry of course
), freemasonry just doesn’t take sides when it comes to the world’s religions. Remember, we are a fraternity, not a religion. It amazes me that so many Christian churches condemn the Masonic fraternity for not declaring all should be Christians, yet this same standard is not applied to other fraternities. Furthermore, if wasn’t for the encouragement of my brothers to find a church to worship at, I may never have become an active Christian. I had only been out of the Jehovah’s Witness cult for 4 years and was still pretty sore when it came to organized religion.
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TheSaleBoat
Guest
you should come learn more about the truth and wisdom that the Catholic church teaches.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
If the Catholic Church continues to condemn Freemasonry today, with a condemnation as recently as a couple of years ago, I imagine there is good reason to it. Freemasonry is viewed with suspicion by other religious groups as well, it’s not a Catholic-only thing. Orthodoxy is strongly opposed, if I recall correctly. Churches don’t just keep up bans for no reason.This is false (except that there are wonderful people in Masonry of course
Since you’re an active Mason, can you explain what Masonry teaches with regards to “the Grand Architect of the Universe,” the “Celestial Lodge,” and how to get there? To me it seems to teach about a divine being separate and distinct from the Lord Jesus Christ. If that’s the case, then that, plus its secretiveness is sufficient to warrant suspicion with regards to joining. Even the former Archbishop of Canterbury seemed a bit nervous about Masonry, and he’s fairly liberal.
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Jerurussia
Guest
Freemasons are gnostics. Gnostics are pre-Christians who were loathed by pagan Roman scholars for making up history and forging “historic” documents. The gnostic “gospels” show their tendency to hate all God loves, the best definition of Gnosticism. And they don’t much like women. Modern Freemasons cling to the super-secret myth that “Jesus Christ” was married to “Mary Magdalene” and had a divine baby, the basis of The DaVinci Code with genetic “Christians” slated to take over the world. Unreally. 
The Knights Templar were destroyed by the love of money. Philip the Fair of France was deeply in debt to the Templars; and had the papacy at his mercy in Poitiers. The original nine Templars spent their time literally undermining Jerusalem, and legend has it they unearthed buried treasure used to underwrite what became an international money-lending empire. It’s unsafe to have a king in your debt, as Jacques DeMolay found. The banking empire that was the Templars had their leader killed, their assets seized and turned over to the Order of St. John / Hospitallers and to civil authorities, not the papacy that gave tacit permission to Philip to persecute the Templars after tortured confessions of satanic impiety. This itself was under a degree of coercion as the previous pope was presumed poisoned by Philip’s rogues.
The Freemasonic disdain for the Catholic Church is to honor DeMolay’s slow-roasted curse of the king and the pope. Can’t much blame him…Colonel Albert Pike, that paragon of American Freemasonry and torturer of Union prisoners, is the only Confederate to have a statue in Washington, D.C. Pike’s letter to a confrere asked if the Freemasons should call their deity “Lucifer” or “Satan.” This may seem distasteful to Christians yet the Theosophists, inspired by Madame Blavatsky, adopted the enlightening Lucifer as their guiding light. Their “Lucis Trust” is a United Nations Non-Governmental Organization / NGO that promotes world peace by urging all nations to stockpile their arms under the U.N.; and suggested only using them against meddling forces like–their actual suggestion–the Vatican, this per Constance Cumbey.
So, how many Catholics bought The DaVinci Code or watched that dreadful movie? Sophie [personified wisdom in the OT] is a sacred prostitute and scion of “Jesus Christ & Mary Magdalene” who was set to mate with Freemasons to make more “Jesus babies” to rule the world.
HINT: It isn’t what you know, it’s Who you know.
The Knights Templar were destroyed by the love of money. Philip the Fair of France was deeply in debt to the Templars; and had the papacy at his mercy in Poitiers. The original nine Templars spent their time literally undermining Jerusalem, and legend has it they unearthed buried treasure used to underwrite what became an international money-lending empire. It’s unsafe to have a king in your debt, as Jacques DeMolay found. The banking empire that was the Templars had their leader killed, their assets seized and turned over to the Order of St. John / Hospitallers and to civil authorities, not the papacy that gave tacit permission to Philip to persecute the Templars after tortured confessions of satanic impiety. This itself was under a degree of coercion as the previous pope was presumed poisoned by Philip’s rogues.
The Freemasonic disdain for the Catholic Church is to honor DeMolay’s slow-roasted curse of the king and the pope. Can’t much blame him…Colonel Albert Pike, that paragon of American Freemasonry and torturer of Union prisoners, is the only Confederate to have a statue in Washington, D.C. Pike’s letter to a confrere asked if the Freemasons should call their deity “Lucifer” or “Satan.” This may seem distasteful to Christians yet the Theosophists, inspired by Madame Blavatsky, adopted the enlightening Lucifer as their guiding light. Their “Lucis Trust” is a United Nations Non-Governmental Organization / NGO that promotes world peace by urging all nations to stockpile their arms under the U.N.; and suggested only using them against meddling forces like–their actual suggestion–the Vatican, this per Constance Cumbey.
So, how many Catholics bought The DaVinci Code or watched that dreadful movie? Sophie [personified wisdom in the OT] is a sacred prostitute and scion of “Jesus Christ & Mary Magdalene” who was set to mate with Freemasons to make more “Jesus babies” to rule the world.
HINT: It isn’t what you know, it’s Who you know.
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benjohnson
Guest
Not to answer for others…
In order to be a Mason, you have to believe in a supreme being - the ideas being that your vows won’t mean much if you don’t have God.
The imagery of the Grand Architect and Celestial Lodge is used as a common point reference for the various mono-theistic religions that have members in a lodge.
The key point from a Christian perspective is that nothing is said about salvation in the Lodge. Frankly, one of the worst rituals the Lodge has as far as being overtly ‘unitarian’ is the funeral ritual - the Funeral Ritual truest to give too much comfort to the bereaved that it come disturbingly close to showing a path to salvation - and frankly as a Christian, I won’t have anything to do with a Masonic Funeral.
…
My Lutheran synod (LCMS) prohibits membership in Freemasonry - I have special dispensation from my pastor after we went over what I’m to look for in weighing my membership against my faith.
Amusingly, the reasons that I’m even in Church to begin with was that my oath as a Mason required me to attend my Church.
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Jerurussia
Guest
In September 2001, Barbara Frale found a copy of the Chinon Parchment in the Vatican Secret Archives, a document which explicitly confirms that in 1308 Pope Clement V absolved Jacques de Molay and other leaders of the Order including Geoffroi de Charney and Hugues de Pairaud. She published her findings in the Journal of Medieval History in 2004.[15] Another Chinon parchment dated 20 August 1308 addressed to Philip IV of France, well-known to historians,[16][17][18] stated that absolution had been granted to all those Templars that had confessed to heresy “and restored them to the Sacraments and to the unity of the Church”.[19][20]
Thank you, Wiki. Now I can hold my head high as a proud Catholic whose Church would only burn a French farm girl on a mission from God. Is it too soon for Joan of Arc jokes? 'Cause I’m just kidding! :whacky: That was the English partisans and they seized the papal nuncio who was aghast at her show trial before he ratted them out to the Pope. Just another example of politics veneered with religion.
Thank you, Wiki. Now I can hold my head high as a proud Catholic whose Church would only burn a French farm girl on a mission from God. Is it too soon for Joan of Arc jokes? 'Cause I’m just kidding! :whacky: That was the English partisans and they seized the papal nuncio who was aghast at her show trial before he ratted them out to the Pope. Just another example of politics veneered with religion.
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seanman611
Guest
A lot of times things like this come out of misunderstanding and mistrust. Just because a group says something doesn’t mean that it is true or that it is right. I would say that most fundamentalist Christians believe that all Catholics are going to hell. Are we then to say that they must have really good reasons for making such assumptions? Sometimes misunderstanding and mistrust owe themselves to history. Masonic Lodges tended to be places of free thought and diversity, something that the medieval Catholic Church was not interested in. Furthermore, Roman Catholics sometimes see the freemasons as coming out of the Knight’s Templar, a group that the Papacy and French King conspired to destroy in order to seize their vast wealth. Therefore, it really isn’t that strange that the Papacy would be strongly against Masonry.
The “Grand Architect of the Universe” is another way of saying God and it is left very vague. Masons make no judgements on who has the right view of God and they leave that up to to the individual Mason to decide. The Masonic Lodge is a fraternity and not a religion afterall. Furthermore, the “Celestial Lodge” is a referencing to life after death. Again, there are not judgements from freemasons on salvation nor does freemasonry advocate a plan of salvation.
I am guessing that you are referring to Dr. Rowan Williams? If so, it is correct to call him liberal on social issues, however, he is very much a theological traditionalist and one of my favorite theologians at that. I am aware of Dr. Williams suspicions of freemasonry, however, he has not advocated that Masons should be banned from the Church of England. I don’t personally know Dr. Williams nor do I know how much he has studied the subject to come to his opinions or whether he even currently still holds them.
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seanman611
Guest
Freemasons are not gnostics, that is plain silly. Also, I think you need to put down the Hollywood fiction books, freemasons do not cling to the super-secret myth that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, this is one of the silliest claims that I have ever heard in my life and I’m shocked that people believe it.Freemasons are gnostics. Gnostics are pre-Christians who were loathed by pagan Roman scholars for making up history and forging “historic” documents. The gnostic “gospels” show their tendency to hate all God loves, the best definition of Gnosticism. And they don’t much like women. Modern Freemasons cling to the super-secret myth that “Jesus Christ” was married to “Mary Magdalene” and had a divine baby, the basis of The DaVinci Code with genetic “Christians” slated to take over the world. Unreally.
The Knights Templar were destroyed because the French King and Papacy wanted their money and power, plain and simple.
Again, this is one of the silliest things I’ve read and it sounds straight out of Hollywood.
Do you believe the DaVinci Code to be works of history of fiction? How does one even begin to address this silliness?So, how many Catholics bought The DaVinci Code or watched that dreadful movie? Sophie [personified wisdom in the OT] is a sacred prostitute and scion of “Jesus Christ & Mary Magdalene” who was set to mate with Freemasons to make more “Jesus babies” to rule the world.
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OSMTH
Guest
- What is Freemasonry?
Freemasonry is an organization with secrets, it’s not a secret organization.
Freemasonry is a fraternity of men who wish to improve themselves. - Why does the Catholic Church oppose Freemasonry?
The church seek for power, and control. The Vatican itself has the biggest secrets of the world. They oppose Freemasonry because they seen it as a threat, that can make people realize that not everything the church said is true.
There are many things said by the church and turned to be false.
NO of course not. First today view about Illuminati is that they worship Satan, they are anti religions and they control the world.
Freemasonry don’t allow it’s members to be non religious. The first rule of freemasonry is that you have to be religious, and they help you to be better religious man,
- Do Freemasons involve with the Occult?
If you mean by that they have secrets, of course. Every society, every club, every restaurant every government, every family has it’s secrets.
BUT remember that they doesn’t have to be BAD.
I don’t know your personal family secrets or what is going on with you at home.
But i can’t just say that you are worship God, or you are bad etc… Just because I don’t know…
People are afraid from what they don’t know, that’s why every secret society or every Gov. with secrets is attacked by people.
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Uberbilly
Guest
I would clarify your number 2.
When Freemasonry began to gain wide acceptance was during the Enlightenment. Several of the ideals of this period (free thought, individual search for truth and meaning, self determination, democracy, pretty the entire US constitution and Bill of Rights) are embodied in Masonry.
Many folks didn’t like it for political reasons. If you are coming from a period in history when your personal religion and the religion your government financed with YOUR tax money was determined solely on the discretion of your monarch, organized and entrenched organizations had a vested interest in the status quo. They may loose this duchy this year because of Duke Bob, but King Billy over there is on our side.
Out of this comes the principle ensconced in almost every US Colony (most were founded or settled by Masons) and eventually the First Amendment of the US Bill of Rights - the Government can’t dictate your religion. You are free to choose it.
This was, in a word, radical.
This drew ire from about every religious head throughout Europe regardless of their stripe.
And thus why the belief that Masons are out to destroy the Church when in actuality we just don’t take sides.
When Freemasonry began to gain wide acceptance was during the Enlightenment. Several of the ideals of this period (free thought, individual search for truth and meaning, self determination, democracy, pretty the entire US constitution and Bill of Rights) are embodied in Masonry.
Many folks didn’t like it for political reasons. If you are coming from a period in history when your personal religion and the religion your government financed with YOUR tax money was determined solely on the discretion of your monarch, organized and entrenched organizations had a vested interest in the status quo. They may loose this duchy this year because of Duke Bob, but King Billy over there is on our side.
Out of this comes the principle ensconced in almost every US Colony (most were founded or settled by Masons) and eventually the First Amendment of the US Bill of Rights - the Government can’t dictate your religion. You are free to choose it.
This was, in a word, radical.
This drew ire from about every religious head throughout Europe regardless of their stripe.
And thus why the belief that Masons are out to destroy the Church when in actuality we just don’t take sides.
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gh4
Guest
Thank you. I was going to say much the same thing. If I want to know about how to roof a house, I’m not going to go to the plumber to answer my questions, I’m going to go to the roofer to answer my questions.
My father was a Mason, and both my parents were in Eastern Star and I was a Rainbow girl as a teen. All my parents friends were Mason and Eastern Star members as well.
And ALL of them were church going Christians. None of them worshiped the devil, none of them were evil and not one of them were anti catholic or anti any other religion.
I know for a fact that Rainbow girls do not worship the devil. In fact, quite the opposite, we all belonged to one church or another and our entire organization was centered around God.
Shriners Hospitals (some 20+ of them) care for children regardless of the families ability to pay. Their hospitals are amazing and wonderful and have helped millions of children over the years.
To be a Shriner, you have to be a mason first. They do good things for people.
And if you want to know the real story, join them. But if you aren’t part of them, then you really don’t have a true idea of what they do.
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cmodrmac
Guest
) What is Freemasonry? it is a fraternal order-focusing on improving the lives and citizenship of its members
- Why does the Catholic Church oppose Freemasonry?
left over from the Protestant Catholic wars -misunderstanding on both sides - Is Freemasonry linked to the Illuminati?
no - Do Freemasons involve with the Occult
no
- Status