What is going on in this forum?

[Matt33]

At the same time, many of us also cherish the good things about our Protestant past. There is no reason for us to cast off like filthy rags all these wonderful things–Gospel music, Christian rock music, giving a word of testimony, clapping hands, lifting hands in worship, emotional responses to music and prayers, etc. These practices are NOT filthy rags and they do not keep us from being "good Catholics."

The do deep you from being good Catholics if they are done at Mass. Maybe there is a place for them in other worship arenas,(hey, I like a good adoration concert as much as the next) but as far as bringing in these “protestant things” into the Mass. That is a big no no.:nope: If you think that they belong in a Mass then you have no concept of what the Catholic mass really is. HOWEVER!!, they can make a retreat, prayer or youth group very meaningful. as can lectio divina or chant.

 

[Spiller]

I agree. I am a convert myself, so no offense to the converts, but the fact is, when Protestant ministers (who have been Protestants all their life) convert to the Catholic Church, they bring with then a certain Protestant flavor, or spirit.

When they set themselves up as apologists right off the bat to instruct the ignorant Catholics, they conveys this Protestant spirit, or flavor, which is then absorbed by their “student”. The result is that the Catholics themselves begin to take on this Protestant flavor. And that is exactly what is happening today.

I agree.

I am dog-tired of hearing about Scott Hahn. Listen to him closely. His preaching on covenant theology is more Presbyterian than Catholic. Some of the comments he makes (about clerics no less) are horrible arrogant. His aim seems to be to boil all things down to a fundamentalist catholic pablum and I want none of that! Fundamentalism is the very antithesis of Catholicism. Not everything is a simple (yet emotional) black/white, yes/no and that is lost on Hahn and people of his background.

Yet Hahn appeals to a certain sector of Catholicism because his message is so stripped-down and easy to comprehend. Too bad it’s often lacking richness and depth. Too bad it breeds intolerance.

If I had to pick a popular Catholic preacher I would take someone like Fr. John Corapi or Larry Richards over Hahn anytime – on any subject.

 

[Spiller]

The problem here is the same problem on all internet forums: nameless, faceless people come here to disrupt and confuse out of malicious intent and boredom.

Ideally, there should be a Catholics Only section and another section for non-Catholics.

There is also no such thing as a Traditional or Liberal or anything else Catholic, there are only Catholics. Either you know and understand what the Church teaches and follow it or you don’t.

Those that worship the mind of man are obsessed with change. Every year, they have “modern” ideas. For Catholics, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Those who disrupt these forums are promoting atheism or humanism or some other non-Christian belief system. There are even some who claim to be Catholics promoting non-Catholic teaching. Those who know Catholic teaching need to correct them or ignore them. They sometimes hide behind the “you can’t judge me” barrier but correct discernment by practicing Catholics is needed. Jesus said, By their fruit you will know them. The fruit of these people, if not corrected, is division and discord among Catholics. Some do this intentially, others appear not to know better.

God bless,
Ed

Very good posting. The part I emboldened especially resonates. If there is one thing these forms have taught me, dissent exists in the strongest presence at the extremes of the Church – liberal AND traditional.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Yes, they are wonderful things as long as they’re sincere. I will never fault anyone for being sincere. But when you use them to portray that those things are the “norm” nevermind those around you, or bring them in where they are unwanted, then you’re being less than honest calling yourself good. After all, when in Rome…

I was turned off by protestant things when I converted, because they betray a protestant conception of Jesus, man’s place in the universe, and of the worship experience.

I know that if I had first walked into a Chuch that had this sort of identity crisis, I would not have converted.

I think we’re facing a new era. I think we need to be focused on atheists in the future, and for them, logical consistency, beauty, confidence in our history, etc. are in order.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I agree.

I am dog-tired of hearing about Scott Hahn. Listen to him closely. His preaching on covenant theology is more Presbyterian than Catholic. Some of the comments he makes (about clerics no less) are horrible arrogant. His aim seems to be to boil all things down to a fundamentalist catholic pablum and I want none of that! Fundamentalism is the very antithesis of Catholicism. Not everything is a simple (yet emotional) black/white, yes/no and that is lost on Hahn and people of his background.

Yet Hahn appeals to a certain sector of Catholicism because his message is so stripped-down and easy to comprehend. Too bad it’s often lacking richness and depth. Too bad it breeds intolerance.

If I had to pick a popular Catholic preacher I would take someone like Fr. John Corapi or Larry Richards over Hahn anytime – on any subject.

Wow. We agree on something!

I get really turned off by Scott Hahn also.

There are too many of these “apologists.”

Sadly, they sort of have to exist, because the faculties at Catholic universities are so heterodox.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Matt33:
The do deep you from being good Catholics if they are done at Mass. Maybe there is a place for them in other worship arenas,(hey, I like a good adoration concert as much as the next) but as far as bringing in these “protestant things” into the Mass. That is a big no no.:nope: If you think that they belong in a Mass then you have no concept of what the Catholic mass really is. HOWEVER!!, they can make a retreat, prayer or youth group very meaningful. as can lectio divina or chant.

Exactly. If they were just optional things individuals did to find meaning in their faith, that would be great.

Unfortunately it can end up being forced on people who are turned away by it, especially finding out that the Papacy, under both JPII and BXVI, has been against a lot of that stuff.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

IIf I had to pick a popular Catholic preacher I would take someone like Fr. John Corapi or Larry Richards over Hahn anytime – on any subject.

Father Corapi is at the top of the list as my favorite homilist. I like his style in the way he presents his message.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[PrayforMallory]

Father Corapi is at the top of the list as my favorite homilist. I like his style in the way he presents his message.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I like his homilies, too.

He really integrates being warm and no-nonsense at the same time.

 

[Cat]

Cat, while I often agree with you I just can’t on this one. These things **do not **belong in the Mass. Either of them. Perhaps this is where the “culturally Catholic” needs to apply.

**Whether or not these things belong in Mass is up to the Bishop, not the laymen. **

In the parishes in our diocese, we see Gospel music (at the Italian parish where I play, there is a contemporary choir that does it), Christian rock (at the Life Teen Mass), hand raising (during the hymns at parishes throughout the diocese), and clapping (believe it or not, in the Italian parish–they clap during songs like Go Tell It On The Mountain, and the Franciscan friars who preside over this parish lead it out!).

We don’t see “testimony times” during Masses, but we see them in other settings. There are many Catholics in our community who are getting out there and telling people about the Catholic Church and Jesus!

These practices are NOT abuses!

St. Paul says in the Scriptures that he wants men everywhere to pray with holy hands lifted.

Interestingly, one of the families at our parish who is big-time into what you would probably call the “Protestant worship style” have a daughter who a few years ago entered a contemplative convent a few days after she graduated from high school, and apparently is now a full-fledged contemplative sister. This young woman was probably the most enthusiastic Catholic hand-raiser I have seen to date! She also played keyboards (not piano or organ, but keyboard) for the Life Teen Mass rock band. Apparently these “Protestant” practices didn’t destroy her Catholicism!

We also have a surplus of priests in our diocese and most of them do NOT come from the TLM parish (which we have had in our city since the 1980s).

Happy clappy? Not really Catholic?! Well, criticize all you wish, but you need to take it up with the Bishop, and I don’t think he’s likely to change something that seems to be working so beautifully in our diocese and that is NOT abusive according to the Church.

I think that many of you are stretching it when you talk about “Catholic culture.” I don’t intend this to sound rude, but frankly, I think it smacks of snobbery. You are adding “rules” to the Catholic Church that don’t exist. These things are your valid personal opinion and therefore, certainly have merit. But they are not what makes a person “Catholic” according to the Church. Just as I put up walls between myself and other Catholics when I refuse to have anything to do with alcohol, YOU are putting up walls when you maintain that hand-raisers, etc. are not practicing true “Catholicism.”

 

[ethelzguy]

Cat, while I often agree with you I just can’t on this one. These things **do not **belong in the Mass. Either of them. Perhaps this is where the “culturally Catholic” needs to apply.

I am curious. What defines something as “Catholic” or "un-Catholic?

 

[consumedconvert]

Boldface mine: Could you please define “culturally Catholic?”

Please don’t be offended personally because I am going to try to be honest in my comments.

A few weeks ago, there was a rather “warm” discussion on CAF about Catholics and alcohol use. If you look up this discussion (I wouldn’t recommend it), you will see that I am adamantly opposed to alcohol use of any kind, except for the occasional Nyquil shot during a sinus infection, and the use of vanilla extract in baking.

Is this what you mean by “Catholic culture?” I hope not, because in all honesty, the alcohol issue was the hardest hurdle for me to leap over to become Catholic. Everything else was easy–True Presence, Papal authority, baptism of infants, Sacraments, Marian dogma, etc.–easy. It was the “culture” of alcohol use that repelled me and, I’m sorry to say, still repels me. Unless the Lord performs a miracle and changes my personality, I will never fit in with this aspect of Catholic culture.

I’m sorry about that. It separates me and that is a shame.

And I’m not the only one. During the course of that thread, I received several PMs from converts and from those considering converting who feel the same way about alcohol. Catholics are incredulous that such a “little thing” is such a big problem for us, but again, just being honest–it IS a wall between us and “Catholic culture.”

PrayforMallory, I would be careful if I were you about accusing evangelicals of anti-intellectualism. I was 47 years old before I became Catholic. In all those years, no Catholics ever talked to me about their Church, explained how the Bible and Catholicism are compatible, or defended various aspects of Catholicism (e.g., Marian devotions, etc.) I remember talking to Catholics and it was obvious that they had never read the Bible on their own. Many of them knew nothing about their own history.

I realize that I was probably talking to people who were catechized after Vatican II. But I knew plenty of older Catholics who, if asked if they knew Jesus as their Personal Savior, would just stand there and say, “We don’t believe in that.” or some other lame answer.

I believe that one of the reasons why my husband and I, and many evangelicals, have converted, is that we ARE both intelligent and devoted people who came to realize through both our minds and our spirits that the Catholic Church is the True Church.

Thankfully places like Catholic Answers exist now, and many Catholics are learning how to be ready to give an answer to those who ask, as St. Peter urges us to do in his first letter.

Cat,

Don’t sweat the whole alcohol thing. If you choose not to partake, that is totally fine! In fact, if you choose to abstain as a form of penance or as avoidance of the near occasion of sin, it is certainly spiritually beneficial!

That being said, we can’t judge each other on this one. The rule is, no drunkenness! So as long as we don’t cross that line, whether we drink or not is a personal (and sometimes family) choice.

Cheers!

 

[nice2000]

I’ve only been here a short time, but I’ve started putting people on my ignore list. They never contribute anything to the discussion. They’re so much against the Trads, but are on this sub-forum constantly it seems. And they use very inflammatory language. Just look at some of the threads in this sub-forum. Especially the comparison to Jack Chick. Just totally unChristian in my opinion.

Who’s “Jack Chick”?

 

[nice2000]

Have I gone insane, or is this the most inaccurately named forum on the internet? Is there ever a thread here about traditional things, other than to argue that tradition does not exist or is an incomprehensible and meaningless word (except when it is used to describe the OF of course), or that all traditionalists are going to hell for judging other people or actually disagreeing with the endless stream of anti-traditionalist threads? Are there any traditionalists on this forum at all? And are there any other Catholics who can disagree in a civil way, refraining from blanket judgments and without flooding the forum with the same post over and over again?

Post after post all I see are “I am traditional because I hate tradition” threads followed by streams of one line drive-by “you go girl” follow ups, sprinkled with warnings that the jackals that are fellow God fearing Catholics will soon swoop in to savage them and eat their young. I have seen the most self-serving, self-congratulatory pablum in this forum over the last few weeks, and it just keeps coming and coming with nothing to say at all, other than to thank God that they are such better Christians than those traditionalists. Nothing of substance can be discussed because it is all drowned out in the endless streams of back slapping and droning calls for peace and love, laced of course with judgment against fellow Catholics who have the audacity to actually disagree with them and thereby disturb the proper peace which should exist here. And it would exist too if only everybody would admit that all Masses are equal in all ways except that the OF is better. Discussion and debate can be very healthy and productinve, but I don’t see how that can be expected to happen in this environment with the attitudes I have seen exhibited here.

Hi Cothridge

Your post bought up some good points.

Even though I was born in 1959, I believe in bringing back the traditions of the Church. I hear so many good stories from my
elders(Catholic) who were born during Vatican I.

 

[Alycin]

I just want to apologize to anyone I may have offended by using the abbreviation NO in reference to the Novus Ordo mass. I didn’t realize this wasn’t acceptable, from now on I will stick to OF… I always wondered why they had two names for the same thing…

 

[ibkc]

I think that many of you are stretching it when you talk about “Catholic culture.” I don’t intend this to sound rude, but frankly, I think it smacks of snobbery. You are adding “rules” to the Catholic Church that don’t exist. These things are your valid personal opinion and therefore, certainly have merit. But they are not what makes a person “Catholic” according to the Church. Just as I put up walls between myself and other Catholics when I refuse to have anything to do with alcohol, YOU are putting up walls when you maintain that hand-raisers, etc. are not practicing true “Catholicism.”

These are things which were allowed to creep into the mass in the last 40 years. They are not things that were present in the mass for the 900 years prior to that.

It isn’t snobbery, Cat. Protestant services are focused on other things and the Protestant worship style reflects that. If I attend a rousing praise and worship service at a Protestant church it can be very uplifting and fun, but to me, it is jarringly bizarre to have people clappin’ and laughin’ and foot-stompin’ and testifyin’ at the holy sacrifice of the mass, which is supposed to be solemn and reverent. Superimposing a Protestant worship style on the mass is an intrusion - not on Catholic culture, but on the mass itself. At mass, you’re not supposed to be thinking about how great you feel and how much fun you’re having. You’re supposed to be concentrating on Christ and His sacrifice.

 

[catharina]

1. One would have to be exceedingly challenged in any number of ways not to realize that “NO Mass”, “NO parish”, “NO priest”, etc. is inherently offensive. 2. It’s a no-brainer.
2. Actually though I think most are aware – they just enjoy being offensive. Sad commentary about any Christian, yet true.

NO ONE would be offended at the use of Mass of Pope Paul VI, Pauline Mass, Ordinary Form of the Mass or simply OF – all of which are actually used by the Church. 4. So please don’t play games with “Or I change today and find another’s objection tomorrow.? Nope.” – it’s too transparent.

No worries. 5. I’ll just consider the source when I see it being used in the future.

1. Consider me exceedingly challenged.
2. I assure you I have a functioning brain.
3. As I said prior, so far I’ve only seen/heard you object to the usage on this forum. That’s a very sad generalization you’ve made about other Catholics.
4. There is no game - unless you’re playing one. If so, you never discussed the rules with me. Meanwhile, you’re becoming more and more insulting and presumptious. Why?
5. You managed to turn a point of no consequence (outside of your own preference) into an attack on me. I thinks that’s terribly sad.

It seems you’ve exemplified what can happen on this forum in terms of negativity. How sad.
I’ll continue to pray for you as I do for all on CA. I hope you do the same.

PS - I do apologize if it seems to you that I’m going out of my way to offend you. I promise that I have no intention of offending you. (In fact, I don’t even know you.) I’m likely to use NO and OF interchangeably. I can see this is an “issue” for you but I’ve never heard an objection from anyone else on this forum (made to me or to anyone else). It is your issue. You speak for you. I speak for me. Maybe I should go back to my previous usage: the Mass and The Latin Mass.

 

[Joe_5859]

Do you think we ought to be “quiet” until we are “thoroughly Catholic?” And when exactly would that be? We have been through RCIA and studied hard to learn as much as we can. We’ve been received into the Church–baptized, confirmed, and now we are privileged to receive Jesus in Holy Communion.

The Church recognizes us as Catholics. I have not heard of any further “tests” that we have to pass to be considered “truly assimilated” into the Catholic Church.

Cat, this entire post was excellent, but these two paragraphs nicely summarize the whole thing. Converts have been baptized same as every other Catholic. They’ve been confirmed, same as every other Catholic. They go to Confession, same as every other Catholic (if not more often that the “average” Catholic). They receive our Lord in the Eucharist, same as every other Catholic (and many times with greater reverence and greater frequency than the “average” Catholic). Yet, they are pejoratively referred to as “Protestant Catholics” who have not yet been fully “assimilated” and are somehow blocked from being “culturally Catholic”. What does that even mean? As far as I can tell, all it means is that they aren’t behaving the way some people think they should be behaving. But who exactly is the arbiter of what it means to be “culturally Catholic”? I haven’t read any Church documents about that one.

I always think of the “qwert” typewriter/keyboards that we use. Say a group came along and says it should be more in the vernacular “abcde” setup. It makes more sense because we can find the keys easier. This becomes a bandwagon movement and they start producing new keyboards with “abcde”. But after a while everyone starts seeing problems with the new design for whatever reason. Then the “qwert” are shown to have less stress on any one finger. Yet the “abcde” group won’t budge, even if they end up selling fewer and fewer keyboards. Isn’t this sort of what’s happening here?

Folks, this is only a fictional situation. It’s only for illustrative purposes. I’m quite comfortable with the current keyboard configuration.

Actually, there is an alternative to QWERTY. It’s called the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard and it is actually less stressful on the typist than the traditional QWERTY (less incidence of carpal-tunnel syndrome). And yet, the QWERTY people refuse to change. I wonder why that is? I guess it’s because “that’s the way we’ve always done it”.

Who’s “Jack Chick”?

Jack Chick is an extreme anti-Catholic with some wacked-out ideas of what the Catholic Church actually teaches and practices. He has created a popular series of comic-like tracts, many of which specifically attack the Catholic Church (or at least what he thinks is the Catholic Church. If you want to see them, go to chick.com.

I just want to apologize to anyone I may have offended by using the abbreviation NO in reference to the Novus Ordo mass. I didn’t realize this wasn’t acceptable, from now on I will stick to OF… I always wondered why they had two names for the same thing…

Actually, so far the only person I have ever seen express any reservation whatsoever about the term is Spiller. I’ve seen people on both “sides” use the term quite frequently and this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone complain about it. Since the Motu Proprio came out, it seems more technically correct to use EF and OF, but I don’t see why NO is offensive. Maybe I haven’t been around the traditional forum long enough to be offended by it.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Deacon, with all due respect, the permanent diaconate is not exactly associated with traditionalism. (Though you are most welcome to distribute communion at the EF.) And, I’m sorry but words like “Magisterium,” “faithful to,” etc., are mostly used to provoke. But we all know you are serious with your prayers and blessings.

The permanent diaconate is a pretty ancient practice, and I don’t see a problem with restoring it to the EF.

I think part of the reason the traditional movement hasn’t merged with the permanent diaconate is that there are more priests available than there are parishes.

I think the restoration of the permanent diaconate was a good thing.

 

[catharina]

I just want to apologize to anyone I may have offended by using the abbreviation NO in reference to the Novus Ordo mass. I didn’t realize this wasn’t acceptable, from now on I will stick to OF… I always wondered why they had two names for the same thing…

It’s terribly sweet of you to offer a general apology but to date, I’ve heard only one person object to the usage of NO as a term to describe the Mass (OF).

Please don’t feel or think or imagine you’ve commited some offense.

I checked your profile and I see you’re studying the Catholic Faith.
Good for you and many prayers for you

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

it is jarringly bizarre to have people clappin’ and laughin’ and foot-stompin’ and testifyin’ at the holy sacrifice of the mass, which is supposed to be solemn and reverent. .

Where have I been all of my 68 years. I do go to Church and to mass quite regularly. I have seen clapping, which when done was appropriate, the same with laughing, when something was said in a homily to make a point. But foot stomping and lay-people testifying during the mass I have not seen. We have had at appropriate times people giving a testimony, before the final blessing when promoting some retrerat, or renewal or mission, etc. But the circus atmosphere of anything goes that the above portrays I have not seen. If that takes place regularly, I will be the first to say that there is a problem. I think (and this is just my opinion) that too often we have a lot of hear say and or exaggeration used to embellish our point. Specific instances help. Generalizations to not help. This is in no way a reflection on the poster whose quote I am using. But it aptly describes a trend I have seen on the forum which has caused much, and at times uncharitable, discussion.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B