What is going on in this forum?

[Cat]

Sure. Your ideas are welcome.
Cat;3903963:

A few weeks ago, there was a rather

Ouch. No alcohol? I always love some whiskey with my bangers and mash!

No I wasn’t referring to things like alcohol. I’m mainly referring to a mindset of Romanitas.

Specifically for me, I mean a different conception of time than that of the Protestants and the Secularists. I think the Catholic ethos Brennan was referring to kind of revolves around this conception of the past as eternally valid and renewed, which is necessary for the maintenance of the Catholic faith in its entirety. As St. Augustine said, “Beauty ever ancient, ever new.” Since the Incarnation happened 2,000 years ago, and the Church’s organic development has continued since then, refining itself again and again, to cut out the middle 1500 years destroys this sense of time, and with it fidelity to those doctrines that were refined during those centuries.

This has grave ramifications for the Catholic faith. People laud how they go to the Mass of the “Early Church,” even though the records (and I’m not informed on this) seem kind of sparse. The problem with this is that St. Thomas Aquinas, perhaps equally as important as Augustine, lived and wrote in the Middle Ages. Augustine himself lived in the waning period of the Classical era, so he can hardly be identified with the Early Church. The doctrines of the faith defined in the Middle Ages and afterwards are still part of that development.

All of the aspects of an authentic “Catholic” culture whether they are pieces of music, visual works of art, literary works, and even the Latin prayers themselves came into being to defend everyone of those dogmas and historical developments. Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel not merely to express himself, or to create something that looked pretty, but was commissioned by the Church to facilitate the Church’s expression of its spirituality. By abandoning Vivaldi (just an arbitrary example, or any other great Catholic artist, scholar, or writer, we abandon the cultural context that stemmed from those dogmas and instructed Catholics in the reality of those dogmas, and thus submission to the Church’s doctrine was not only argued from a Biblical and Magisterial standpoint, but also an artistic one.

It’s also a reassertion that Christianity is not merely a conglomeration of subjective feelings and community experience, but a philosophically defensible, artistically viable, culturally refined, ethically sound, and fully “adult” way of life. In short- we can work to create a thoroughly Roman Catholic civilization.

I’m sorry you feel separated. I don’t want to get into a discussion of alcohol (I’m going to look for that thread, you’ve raised my curiosity) but prohibition of alcohol is a Protestant movement based on puritanism. I wouldn’t think, however, that anyone would need to drink to be Catholic in any way.

It’s certainly true that most Catholics are ignorant of their faith, but this is also true of Protestants. I was raised in an evangelical setting, and I would imagine that if I pointed out that they were “Protestants” some of them wouldn’t know what I was talking about.

I realized early in my life that I wasn’t encountering authentic Christianity. It was just the justification of bits and pieces of the stagnant southern culture by out of context impositions of the King James Bible, combined with charismatic emotionalism and irrationality.

Yeah. I encounter that too. Unfortunately nowadays, most of my peers are somehow “Catholic but not Christian.” Sadly.

Of course there are exceptions to everything. Knowing that the prayers of the Tridentine Mass are definitely much more accessible than plenty of people are wanting us to believe, I’m sure that if you and your husband sought it out you could get the hang of it in no time.

But in any case, I think we’re in a period where most faithful, intelligent Protestants are in fact joining the Catholic Church.

Still, I think they should definitely provide people with access to their adopted historical heritage, their spiritual heritage, so that they aren’t allowed to remain Protestants who flee to the Papacy because they are tired of interpreting the Bible, because that’s not really something we can build a Catholic culture on. It was the first stage of my conversion, but, I don’t think it should be all there is. That’s certainly not the case with you or with a lot of converts, but it is a problem.

I agree.

Thank you so much for the clarification and explanation.

I think that many former Protestants have a lot of appreciation for what you are talking about.

I think a lot of former Protestants, myself included, have immersed themselves in reading and studying Catholic Church history and of course, Catholic theology. Many of us take great pleasure in visiting and touring historic Catholic churches, listening to ancient Catholic music, contemplating ancient Catholic art (especially the icons), learning Latin (one of the Protestant converts in our parish is attempting to get Latin classes started), praying the ancient prayers of the Church, reading about the saints and emulating them as much as possible, attending TLM, and being as “Catholic” as possible.

I don’t think it is the Protestant converts who are holding the ancient ways of the Church up to ridicule and scorn.

At the same time, many of us also cherish the good things about our Protestant past. There is no reason for us to cast off like filthy rags all these wonderful things–Gospel music, Christian rock music, giving a word of testimony, clapping hands, lifting hands in worship, emotional responses to music and prayers, etc. These practices are NOT filthy rags and they do not keep us from being “good Catholics.”

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The problem here is the same problem on all internet forums: nameless, faceless people come here to disrupt and confuse out of malicious intent and boredom.

Ideally, there should be a Catholics Only section and another section for non-Catholics.

There is also no such thing as a Traditional or Liberal or anything else Catholic, there are only Catholics. Either you know and understand what the Church teaches and follow it or you don’t.

Those that worship the mind of man are obsessed with change. Every year, they have “modern” ideas. For Catholics, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Those who disrupt these forums are promoting atheism or humanism or some other non-Christian belief system. There are even some who claim to be Catholics promoting non-Catholic teaching. Those who know Catholic teaching need to correct them or ignore them. They sometimes hide behind the “you can’t judge me” barrier but correct discernment by practicing Catholics is needed. Jesus said, By their fruit you will know them. The fruit of these people, if not corrected, is division and discord among Catholics. Some do this intentially, others appear not to know better.

God bless,
Ed

Good post Ed
prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ProVobis]

And it would exist too if only everybody would admit that all Masses are equal in all ways except that the OF is better.

I always think of the “qwert” typewriter/keyboards that we use. Say a group came along and says it should be more in the vernacular “abcde” setup. It makes more sense because we can find the keys easier. This becomes a bandwagon movement and they start producing new keyboards with “abcde”. But after a while everyone starts seeing problems with the new design for whatever reason. Then the “qwert” are shown to have less stress on any one finger. Yet the “abcde” group won’t budge, even if they end up selling fewer and fewer keyboards. Isn’t this sort of what’s happening here?

Folks, this is only a fictional situation. It’s only for illustrative purposes. I’m quite comfortable with the current keyboard configuration.

 

[ibkc]

At the same time, many of us also cherish the good things about our Protestant past. There is no reason for us to cast off like filthy rags all these wonderful things–Gospel music, Christian rock music, giving a word of testimony, clapping hands, lifting hands in worship, emotional responses to music and prayers, etc. These practices are NOT filthy rags and they do not keep us from being “good Catholics.”

sigh
These things are not Catholic, either, and they don’t belong in the mass. They’re fine in other contexts, but not in the mass, which is a big sticking point.

(I am a convert, too, but my experience with Christianity was high-church Episcopalianism, so I’m not sure I qualify as a “protestant” in the true sense. However I grew up in the South and so I was surrounded by real protestants and their cultural traditions.)

 

[ProVobis]

Join the Club. I was very surprised to learn that I was not a traditional Catholic, because i do my best to be faithful to and to follow Rome sweet home. Maybe we should have a thread started called "Catholics faithful to Rome (The Magisterium)
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Deacon, with all due respect, the permanent diaconate is not exactly associated with traditionalism. (Though you are most welcome to distribute communion at the EF.) And, I’m sorry but words like “Magisterium,” “faithful to,” etc., are mostly used to provoke. But we all know you are serious with your prayers and blessings.

 

[ProVobis]

At the same time, many of us also cherish the good things about our Protestant past. There is no reason for us to cast off like filthy rags all these wonderful things–Gospel music, Christian rock music, giving a word of testimony, clapping hands, lifting hands in worship, emotional responses to music and prayers, etc. These practices are NOT filthy rags and they do not keep us from being “good Catholics.”

Yes, they are wonderful things as long as they’re sincere. I will never fault anyone for being sincere. But when you use them to portray that those things are the “norm” nevermind those around you, or bring them in where they are unwanted, then you’re being less than honest calling yourself good. After all, when in Rome…

 

[LilyM]

I always think of the “qwert” typewriter/keyboards that we use. Say a group came along and says it should be more in the vernacular “abcde” setup. It makes more sense because we can find the keys easier. This becomes a bandwagon movement and they start producing new keyboards with “abcde”. But after a while everyone starts seeing problems with the new design for whatever reason. Then the “qwert” are shown to have less stress on any one finger. Yet the “abcde” group won’t budge, even if they end up selling fewer and fewer keyboards. Isn’t this sort of what’s happening here?

Folks, this is only a fictional situation. It’s only for illustrative purposes. I’m quite comfortable with the current keyboard configuration.

To me it’s more like the PC v Mac thing. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience both do a pretty good job of most things, each has certain advantages over the other, depending on what you want to accomplish, PC is more widely used than Mac, but users who favour the one tend to gripe a lot, often unnecessarily, about the other.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I always think of the “qwert” typewriter/keyboards that we use. Say a group came along and says it should be more in the vernacular “abcde” setup. It makes more sense because we can find the keys easier. This becomes a bandwagon movement and they start producing new keyboards with “abcde”. But after a while everyone starts seeing problems with the new design for whatever reason. Then the “qwert” are shown to have less stress on any one finger. Yet the “abcde” group won’t budge, even if they end up selling fewer and fewer keyboards. Isn’t this sort of what’s happening here?

Folks, this is only a fictional situation. It’s only for illustrative purposes. I’m quite comfortable with the current keyboard configuration.

I never would have thought up this analogy.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[consumedconvert]

Deacon, with all due respect, the permanent diaconate is not exactly associated with traditionalism. (Though you are most welcome to distribute communion at the EF.) And, I’m sorry but words like “Magisterium,” “faithful to,” etc., are mostly used to provoke. But we all know you are serious with your prayers and blessings.

Also with do respect, the permanent Diaconate is much older than even Latin in the Mass.

Remember St. Stephen? You know, the guy who got stoned for preaching? He was never a priest, and never meant to be a priest. He was ordained to “wait tables,” to help administer the distribution of food, never in hopes that he might one day be a priest. He was a permanent Deacon.

Deacons have a vital ministry in the Church today. Theirs is an ancient office, and most worthy of all respect.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Deacon, with all due respect, the permanent diaconate is not exactly associated with traditionalism. (Though you are most welcome to distribute communion at the EF.) And, I’m sorry but words like “Magisterium,” “faithful to,” etc., are mostly used to provoke. But we all know you are serious with your prayers and blessings.

Please, how in the world does the term Magisterium provoke??? It is after all, "THE OFFICIAL TEACHING AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH"
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[cothrige]

To me it’s more like the PC v Mac thing. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience both do a pretty good job of most things, each has certain advantages over the other, depending on what you want to accomplish, PC is more widely used than Mac, but users who favour the one tend to gripe a lot, often unnecessarily, about the other.

Well, this is the problem. I use Debian, and I am apparently being defined right out altogether.

 

[BSHoop96]

At the same time, many of us also cherish the good things about our Protestant past. There is no reason for us to cast off like filthy rags all these wonderful things–Gospel music, Christian rock music, giving a word of testimony, clapping hands, lifting hands in worship, emotional responses to music and prayers, etc. These practices are NOT filthy rags and they do not keep us from being “good Catholics.”

Cat, while I often agree with you I just can’t on this one. These things **do not **belong in the Mass. Either of them. Perhaps this is where the “culturally Catholic” needs to apply.

 

[BSHoop96]

Deacon, with all due respect, the permanent diaconate is not exactly associated with traditionalism.

Really? Why not? Seriously.

 

[CradleCath]

Thank you and God bless you, cothridge, you make so many good points in your post that I couldn’t list them all without repeating it verbatim.

Basically, what we have here is a bunch of modernists, the paid lackeys of “progressive” theologians, for all I know, who are very very nervous about the return to Catholic Tradition they sense is coming under Pope Benedict XVI and his successors. Apparently they come (or are sent) onto this forum to try to throw the proverbial monkey wrench into any serious discussion of tradition we try to have. Others are converts from Judaism or Protestantism who memorized a few lines from the catechism, attended some “feel-good” masses in a Bauhaus-style church with plenty of folk guitar strumming and hand-holding, and now feel it is their right to come on here and lecture the rest of us about our own Faith and our Catholic culture, something that some of us were raised with. We didn’t get it from reading Orbis Books and watching “Life on the Rock.” Little by little, these liberals’ priviledged position in the Church these last forty years is being eroded away, and they are quite frightened about it.

You’re right, they fear the return to a traditional/conservative Catholicism. Many of them embrace the “Jolly Jesus luvs you, no matter what & that’s all the matters” type of faith. Of course, He loves us, but that is NOT all that matters. The more Protestantizing of the Church… the better, for many of our Catholic converts. The concept of really studying the Catholic faith in it’s entirety: the history, the lives of the saints, the Marian Doctrines, the customs & lives of the Catholics who went before them does frighten them, it seems.

Both my Mother & Mother-in-Law were converts to Catholicism. One role modeled & taught the faith to 5 children, the other to 8 children &, boy, did they know Catholic culture & Catholic history.
My Mother-in-Law told me that, when she first converted, she couldn’t get enough knowledge about all things Catholic & hounded her Mother-in-Law for info about everything from the history of Liturgy to the definition of a Novena. .

IMO., the “Song of Bernadette” & “The Children of Fatima” by Leo Madigan should be a requirement of every RCIA class & “Sisters: Catholic Nuns and the Making of America”, by John J. Fialka should be read by every American Catholic woman.

The legacy & culture of our forefathers & mothers is SO interesting & beautiful & inspiring…but many of today’s Catholics…both cradle & converts don’t seem to be interested.
Nor, do they seem interested in our pious practices: kneeling for Communion, the rosary, the life that was lived inside of Catholic schools while the nuns were still nuns. It is their loss & a mentality that I don’t understand. I have always been so curious about my history…I remember begging for stories of the “old country” from one set of Grandparents & hearing the tales of my other Grandparents Catholic ancestors in Germany & France. Seems we’ve lost a lot & one of the things that is very curious, IMO., is the loss of the desire to know Catholicism.

 

[I_Believe]

At the same time, many of us also cherish the good things about our Protestant past. There is no reason for us to cast off like filthy rags all these wonderful things–Gospel music, Christian rock music, giving a word of testimony, clapping hands, lifting hands in worship, emotional responses to music and prayers, etc. These practices are NOT filthy rags and they do not keep us from being “good Catholics.”

AMEN Sister !

Praise be, and pass me a copperhead !!!
:dancing: :extrahappy:

( time out for the ole sign 'o love :hug3: :grouphug: :hug3: :grouphug: )

“Hey boys, how 'bout that petra song…the one about how we’s aliens !”

Just kidding of course

 

[CradleCath]

I agree that it has become very difficult to actually learn anything about Traditional Catholicism on this forum, because of the seemingly endless challenges to and outright attacks on people who hold traditional positions. I’ve been going to Fish Eaters to get a sense of where the trads are coming from, where I mostly just lurk and read. And I think it is a shame that people like me have to go elsewhere for that kind of information and discussion. I am a recent convert and I get a lot out of every other forum on CAF, but this one should really be re-named “Attack Traditional Catholics and Traditional Catholicism Here”.

Thanks for the info, IBKC, about Fish Eaters. Maybe I’ll try reading that forum.

 

[Spiller]

Good question. Not earth-shattering but good.

Until I discovered this forum I used the terms, the Mass and the Latin Mass.

I have no investment (positive or negative) in any particular usage.
PS - For the record, you’re the first I’ve heard object to the use of NO shorthand.-

So why not change? I even noticed Wikipedia makes note of the pejorative nature of “NO” and “Novus Ordo.”

 

[CradleCath]

Hey Alycin.

If you are referring to my post, I guess I should just state a few things.

I’ve been a Catholic for my entire adult life- 8 years, so while I’m a convert, the time in which I wasn’t Catholic seems like eons ago. Also, I’m not attempting to argue for changing the Church- just renewing our society and the way converts experience and identify with Catholicism, which is something I’ve been dealing with for quite a long time now!

For just a basic introduction into why we have all these disputes, read this piece by the eminent Catholic philosopher Dietrich Von Hildebrand. latin-mass-society.org/dietrich.htm

May I ask, have you been to a lot of EF’s and OF’s?

Hope I’m not intruding.

You aren’t intruding & thanks for the link to that site. It’s a good one & fair. It does a good job of addressing both Vat. II Catholicsm & Traditional Catholicism. An excerpt:

"MY CONCERN is not with the legal status of the changes. And I emphatically do not wish to be understood as regretting that the Constitution has permitted the vernacular to complement the Latin. What I deplore is that the new mass is replacing the Latin Mass, that the old liturgy is being recklessly scrapped, and denied to most of the People of God.

I should like to put to those who are fostering this development several questions: Does the new mass, more than the old, bestir the human spirit – does it evoke a sense of eternity? Does it help raise our hearts from the concerns of everyday life – from the purely natural aspects of the world- to Christ? Does it increase reverence, an appreciation of the sacred?"

 

[catharina]

So why not change? I even noticed Wikipedia makes note of the pejorative nature of “NO” and “Novus Ordo.”

I already changed. As I said: “Until I discovered this forum I used the terms, the Mass and the Latin Mass.” Now, change again because wikipedia says so? No thanks. All you’ve established for me is that YOU’RE bothered by the use of the abbreviation N.O.

Maybe don’t read my posts?
Or I change today and find another’s objection tomorrow.? Nope.

Yours is the kind of negative comment that could be seen as petty and pointless.

BIIIIIIG CHURCH.
BIIIIIIG COUNTRY.

Why such specific criticism of language habits? Why?

No offense to you and God bless us both.
Not everything needs to be an issue, does it?

 

[Spiller]

I already changed. As I said: “Until I discovered this forum I used the terms, the Mass and the Latin Mass.” Now, change again because wikipedia says so? No thanks. All you’ve established for me is that YOU’RE bothered by the use of the abbreviation N.O.

Maybe don’t read my posts?
Or I change today and find another’s objection tomorrow.? Nope.

Yours is the kind of negative comment that could be seen as petty and pointless.

BIIIIIIG CHURCH.
BIIIIIIG COUNTRY.

Why such specific criticism of language habits? Why?

No offense to you and God bless us both.
Not everything needs to be an issue, does it?

One would have to be exceedingly challenged in any number of ways not to realize that “NO Mass”, “NO parish”, “NO priest”, etc. is inherently offensive. It’s a no-brainer.

Actually though I think most are aware – they just enjoy being offensive. Sad commentary about any Christian, yet true.

NO ONE would be offended at the use of Mass of Pope Paul VI, Pauline Mass, Ordinary Form of the Mass or simply OF – all of which are actually used by the Church. So please don’t play games with “Or I change today and find another’s objection tomorrow.? Nope.” – it’s too transparent.

No worries. I’ll just consider the source when I see it being used in the future.