What is going on in this forum?

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Where have I been all of my 68 years. I do go to Church and to mass quite regularly. I have seen clapping, which when done was appropriate, the same with laughing, when something was said in a homily to make a point. But foot stomping and lay-people testifying during the mass I have not seen. We have had at appropriate times people giving a testimony, before the final blessing when promoting some retrerat, or renewal or mission, etc. But the circus atmosphere of anything goes that the above portrays I have not seen. If that takes place regularly, I will be the first to say that there is a problem. I think (and this is just my opinion) that too often we have a lot of hear say and or exaggeration used to embellish our point. Specific instances help. Generalizations to not help. This is in no way a reflection on the poster whose quote I am using. But it aptly describes a trend I have seen on the forum which has caused much, and at times uncharitable, discussion.
I was responding directly to Cat, trying to explain why so many are critical of Protestant embellishments in the mass. I did use some hyperbole, but my intention was not to be uncharitable, and I am puzzled that you are taking it that way. My point of view is as valid as anyone’s here.
  • Dorothy
 
One of the things I have seen, especially recently, in this forum, is the utter lack of respect and downright hostile defiance of the Church and the clergy.

Insulting one another as peers is one thing. But I wonder how many of the posters her who regularly trash-mouth the Holy Father and the Bishops, would say the same things to their faces? Would you stand before Benedict XVI and tell him that Paul VI was “spineless” and let the Church run amok?

Therein lies the key. Anonymous screen names on computers tend to bring out the worst in some people. I seriously doubt that anyone here would stand before the Holy Father, and declare to his face that he was both a traditionalist and a modernist…or that any changes to the NO/OF Mass would amount to putting lipstick on a pig…(or similar metaphor), like I have seen here.
 
**Whether or not these things belong in Mass is up to the Bishop, not the laymen. **

In the parishes in our diocese, we see Gospel music (at the Italian parish where I play, there is a contemporary choir that does it), Christian rock (at the Life Teen Mass), hand raising (during the hymns at parishes throughout the diocese), and clapping (believe it or not, in the Italian parish–they clap during songs like Go Tell It On The Mountain, and the Franciscan friars who preside over this parish lead it out!).

We don’t see “testimony times” during Masses, but we see them in other settings. There are many Catholics in our community who are getting out there and telling people about the Catholic Church and Jesus!

These practices are NOT abuses!

St. Paul says in the Scriptures that he wants men everywhere to pray with holy hands lifted.

Interestingly, one of the families at our parish who is big-time into what you would probably call the “Protestant worship style” have a daughter who a few years ago entered a contemplative convent a few days after she graduated from high school, and apparently is now a full-fledged contemplative sister. This young woman was probably the most enthusiastic Catholic hand-raiser I have seen to date! She also played keyboards (not piano or organ, but keyboard) for the Life Teen Mass rock band. Apparently these “Protestant” practices didn’t destroy her Catholicism!

We also have a surplus of priests in our diocese and most of them do NOT come from the TLM parish (which we have had in our city since the 1980s).

Happy clappy? Not really Catholic?! Well, criticize all you wish, but you need to take it up with the Bishop, and I don’t think he’s likely to change something that seems to be working so beautifully in our diocese and that is NOT abusive according to the Church.

I think that many of you are stretching it when you talk about “Catholic culture.” I don’t intend this to sound rude, but frankly, I think it smacks of snobbery. You are adding “rules” to the Catholic Church that don’t exist. These things are your valid personal opinion and therefore, certainly have merit. But they are not what makes a person “Catholic” according to the Church. Just as I put up walls between myself and other Catholics when I refuse to have anything to do with alcohol, YOU are putting up walls when you maintain that hand-raisers, etc. are not practicing true “Catholicism.”
Cat
I can tell that this is a hot button issue for you but you need to look at this through “Catholic” eyes.
Some of these things do not belong in the Mass. Bishops approval or not. The inability of some Bishops to be liturgically correct is the reason some may (wrongly) slander them on these boards. It is emotional on Both sides.
When we raise our hands, have a rock band, have cutsy little plays for the homily, clap, dance, and have line dance style hand signals for songs. We are taking the focus away from the WHOLE REASON for our faith, our source and summit… The Eucharist. We are focusing on ourselves, our feelings, our emotions and not allowing reverence, humbleness, obedience and true worship to take place.
Protestants have to have these things because they lack the Fullness of Truth and the Real Presence. they have to find a way to create a high, or a feeling that some get addicted too. We don’t need and shouldn’t have that fakeness in our Mass. It is not a social time it is not a fair. I am sure that if we gave away I-pods and icecream people would come to Church too but the fact is we don’t need or want that kind of fake faith.
The Mass is about Him AND us together worshiping and healing in the way He wants us too. Not about our prosac feelings.
 
One of the things I have seen, especially recently, in this forum, is the utter lack of respect and downright hostile defiance of the Church and the clergy.

Insulting one another as peers is one thing. But I wonder how many of the posters her who regularly trash-mouth the Holy Father and the Bishops, would say the same things to their faces? Would you stand before Benedict XVI and tell him that Paul VI was “spineless” and let the Church run amok?

Therein lies the key. Anonymous screen names on computers tend to bring out the worst in some people. I seriously doubt that anyone here would stand before the Holy Father, and declare to his face that he was both a traditionalist and a modernist…or that any changes to the NO/OF Mass would amount to putting lipstick on a pig…(or similar metaphor), like I have seen here.
I know, I know. From what’s been said in this thread, it’s clear that at some time both forms of the Mass have been held up to grievous ridicule. It’s a true heartbreak and a devastating wound to the Body of Christ. The example you cited and the other example (vulgar comparison of the EF) is enough to make one believe that he/she has fallen among heathens at best. All of us have to know that certain matters are entirely off-limits for insulting put-downs. Certainly that has to include our Popes. Who are we to judge them?
 
Cat

When we raise our hands, have a rock band, have cutsy little plays for the homily, clap, dance, and have line dance style hand signals for songs. .
Matt, I have to ask: have you ever seen such things at any Catholic Mass?
I only ask because I’m 62 yrs old and I’ve never seen anything remotely like it.
 
I was responding directly to Cat, trying to explain why so many are critical of Protestant embellishments in the mass. I did use some hyperbole, but my intention was not to be uncharitable, and I am puzzled that you are taking it that way. My point of view is as valid as anyone’s here.
  • Dorothy
I did not take your response as uncharitable, but as fact, with no hyperbole. That said, I hope you can see the images I had in my mind. :o

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Yes, I can see how these things would be so. But, I just can’t understand how people who have seen others treated as red-headed stepchildren by many in the Church for going on fifty years cannot celebrate for them after finally getting a little recompense? Especially when it costs the rest nothing at all, and likely benefits all. Especially if you believe the Holy Father. But, instead, people here post negative attacks over and over again against anybody who celebrates the actions of our Holy Father, and they do so by accusations that traditionalists are disobedient to the Church. How can agreeing with the Pope make you disobedient? It just leaves me cold.

We all know that there are hundreds of OF Masses celebrated everywhere in a myriad manners and styles, and nobody who prefers that type of spirituality is ever unable to find it, no matter where they live. At the same time there are fellow Catholics who have absolutely no access whatsoever to even one Mass celebrated in the way they find most conducive for their worship. And when they express a hope for even one Mass in that form in their area they receive endless attacks for feeling that way, like that one Mass out of hundreds is just too much to think of losing. Where is the sympathy for fellow believers who are suffering personal loss? I don’t care if I agree with your loss, or even understand it, shouldn’t there be just a hint of sympathy? Christ said when somebody seeks to take your coat give him your cloak as well, and this regardless of who does it. But do we see this here with fellow Catholics? No, instead it is insistence that there is no loss, or that traditionalists seek to rid the world of the OF Mass and have only the EF. Over one Mass out of so many? It all just speaks of a complete lack of Christian charity.
I only read the first page of the thread, but I agree with you. I just wish the mean-spiritness would finally end. People today are hopefully not the same 5, 10, 15, 20 or 30 years ago. Perhaps in the past there was coldness and meanness from “traditionalists”. I wouldn’t know, as I was either not alive yet or too young to be involved in any of this. And from what I experienced growing up, a hatefulness from those who was totally against anything ‘traditional’, but today, it’s different. We are all just yearning for complete spiritual ecstasy as anyone else. Of course there are still people on both sides who are closed off and unloving. But if we open our hearts a bit and look at each other as lovers of God and followers of Christ, that vicious cycle can be stopped and there would be no need for sarcastic remarks on either side or the feeling that one needs to defend oneself after a mean-spirited remark. I’m truly happy that the EF is now offered at more churches - and I’m one who is fine with either the EF or the OF as long as both are reverent. I only wish that some people who are against the EF wouldn’t be so vociferous and mean about it. It’s a bit strange.
 
Jack Chick is an extreme anti-Catholic with some wacked-out ideas of what the Catholic Church actually teaches and practices. He has created a popular series of comic-like tracts, many of which specifically attack the Catholic Church (or at least what he thinks is the Catholic Church. If you want to see them, go to chick.com.
Thanks Joe, 🙂

I think I asked that question once before. I remember now. 😃
 
It’s terribly sweet of you to offer a general apology but to date,** I’ve heard only one person object to the usage of NO as a term to describe the Mass (OF). **

Please don’t feel or think or imagine you’ve commited some offense.

Absolutely not! There are just a few who like to pick nits concerning the imaginary insults that they think are coming their way. No harm done at all.
 
So the problem with someone comparing the mass to a pig is not the revolting comment-its those who take offense to the revolting comment.
Absolutely not. The problem is when one revolting comment becomes an excuse for a cycle of mutual abuse.

We don’t have control of those who make revolting comments. Only the moderators do. We do have control of our own posts, though. In fact, I would argue that if we respond in kind to revolting posters, they have become the ones who are in control of us. They will have been given control of this forum.

If you were at a dinner party with friends and someone made a revolting comment, you would have several choices. Among them are:
a) “What kind of idiot would make such a revolting comment! I demand you take that back this minute! For that matter, who the h*** invited you, anyway?!?”
b) “I beg your pardon?”
c) Stony silence, followed by studied refusal to recognize the offender’s comment, by continuing the conversation as if the comment had never been made and the offender was not even present.
d) “Bob, Bob, I know the topic upsets you, but did you really have to put it that way at the dinner table? We’re in polite company, here.”

I’m saying that (a) doesn’t help. It will, in fact, leave your hosts wishing they had not invited either of you.

The others are variations that might each be called for, depending on the circumstances.

If we want this forum to be civilized, we need to behave under the pretense that we are on a civilized forum, and act accordingly. We should not allow the bad behavior of others to excuse ourselves for posting in an uncharitable manner. IMHO, it simply isn’t necessary, and in fact makes the problem worse.
 
**Whether or not these things belong in Mass is up to the Bishop, not the laymen. **

In the parishes in our diocese, we see Gospel music (at the Italian parish where I play, there is a contemporary choir that does it), Christian rock (at the Life Teen Mass), hand raising (during the hymns at parishes throughout the diocese), and clapping (believe it or not, in the Italian parish–they clap during songs like Go Tell It On The Mountain, and the Franciscan friars who preside over this parish lead it out!).

We don’t see “testimony times” during Masses, but we see them in other settings. There are many Catholics in our community who are getting out there and telling people about the Catholic Church and Jesus!

These practices are NOT abuses!

St. Paul says in the Scriptures that he wants men everywhere to pray with holy hands lifted.

Interestingly, one of the families at our parish who is big-time into what you would probably call the “Protestant worship style” have a daughter who a few years ago entered a contemplative convent a few days after she graduated from high school, and apparently is now a full-fledged contemplative sister. This young woman was probably the most enthusiastic Catholic hand-raiser I have seen to date! She also played keyboards (not piano or organ, but keyboard) for the Life Teen Mass rock band. Apparently these “Protestant” practices didn’t destroy her Catholicism!

We also have a surplus of priests in our diocese and most of them do NOT come from the TLM parish (which we have had in our city since the 1980s).

Happy clappy? Not really Catholic?! Well, criticize all you wish, but you need to take it up with the Bishop, and I don’t think he’s likely to change something that seems to be working so beautifully in our diocese and that is NOT abusive according to the Church.

I think that many of you are stretching it when you talk about “Catholic culture.” I don’t intend this to sound rude, but frankly, I think it smacks of snobbery. You are adding “rules” to the Catholic Church that don’t exist. These things are your valid personal opinion and therefore, certainly have merit. But they are not what makes a person “Catholic” according to the Church. Just as I put up walls between myself and other Catholics when I refuse to have anything to do with alcohol, YOU are putting up walls when you maintain that hand-raisers, etc. are not practicing true “Catholicism.”
Cat, I don’t mean to imply that you are not a “good” Catholic and I don’t think any of the people who replied the same way did either. But you are the one “adding things” to the Mass. However, I am sure you are sincere and mean no offense. Many of these things spontaneously starting occurring in parishes over the years and I think much of it came from evangelical converts and charismatics movements. I don’t think you realize how many Catholics see it as converts trying to put their protestant “twist” on the Mass. I don’t mean to offend you but I don’t want to attend a “protestantized” (if that’s a word?) Mass. That would be like me becoming a Baptist and insisting that I want to make the sign of the cross or genuflect at the cross (since they have no Blessed Sacrament) or something. I’m sure there is no rule about it but it would certainly not be well received.

Of course many of these things are not in the GIRM because they don’t list EVERYTHING you CAN’T do. That would be impossible. They speak of what should be done. But you shouldn’t be adding your own gestures and such to the Mass.

There was an interesting thread on here before about people who tend to make the “gestures of the priest” which is a no-no and which is spoken to. Also, some people want to say the doxology along with the priest during the Our Father and that is a no-no. All these and the types of things you speak of add confusion to the Mass because they all get mixed up together in what is an abuse, not an abuse, etc.

Also, I read that in some places they had to “pull back” some of the “Teen Life” Masses. There may not be a rule written about it but anything can be taken to a point where it gets out of hand and you may not be able to run and find a “rule”.

I’m sure you probably know that Benedict is not a fan of folk music at the Mass. There may come a time when he addresses some of these things. As we have seen he is slowly making changes. It takes a long time for some things to work all the way down to the parishes even though it shouldn’t.

Just a little side issue. I was speaking to our priest about people coming up for a blessing. I asked about it because my husband is in RCIA and I had doubts about it as the priest blesses us all at the end of Mass. He said that it was something that started spontaneously and has grown thru the years. He said he would never deny someone a blessing but that it really was a “communion line” and not a “blessing line”. Also said the same thing about holding hands at the Our Father and that I certainly did not have to do that either if I would rather clasp my hands in prayer. However, I would not hurt someone’s feelings over something like that and if they reach out their hand I do take it.

You say we are stretching Catholic culture and it smacks of snobbery. I think that you should take a moment to think about leaving your protestant church, becoming a Catholic, and then calling it snobbery when we object to you bringing what is “normal” in many evangelical/protestant churches into the Mass.

Again, I really am not trying to offend you. You sound like a good person.

By the way, I love “Gospel Choirs”. Just not in the Mass. Also, I’m a convert.
 
  1. Consider me exceedingly challenged.
  2. I assure you I have a functioning brain.
  3. As I said prior, so far I’ve only seen/heard you object to the usage on this forum. That’s a very sad generalization you’ve made about other Catholics.
  4. There is no game - unless you’re playing one. If so, you never discussed the rules with me. Meanwhile, you’re becoming more and more insulting and presumptious. Why?
  5. You managed to turn a point of no consequence (outside of your own preference) into an attack on me. I thinks that’s terribly sad.
It seems you’ve exemplified what can happen on this forum in terms of negativity. How sad.
I’ll continue to pray for you as I do for all on CA. I hope you do the same.

PS - I do apologize if it seems to you that I’m going out of my way to offend you. I promise that I have no intention of offending you. (In fact, I don’t even know you.) I’m likely to use NO and OF interchangeably. I can see this is an “issue” for you but I’ve never heard an objection from anyone else on this forum (made to me or to anyone else). It is your issue. You speak for you. I speak for me. Maybe I should go back to my previous usage: the Mass and The Latin Mass.
I also did not realize that NO was offensive to anyone. And I attend a wonderful NO parish.
 
I rarely post on these threads for fear of offending someone who is oversensitive about their opinions and beliefs. I wonder how many people have been chased away from the true faith after visiting these forums and experiencing such a high concentration of uncharitable rabble.
I suspect that it is the devil who takes advantage of each and every one of us when we reach a weakened state. He knows the best place and time to strike and he hates the Mass so he leads us down this road in order to cause disunity and perdition.
Baptism may restore us to grace but the effects of original sin remain as is obvious from reading these threads. I get angry most of the time reading these things and that is why I usually don’t post. I was tauhgt as a child that if you don’t have anything good to say then don’t say anything at all! This I learned from my irreligious parents. Let us post prayerfully and sensibly. Pax tecum!
 
I rarely post on these threads for fear of offending someone who is oversensitive about their opinions and beliefs. I wonder how many people have been chased away from the true faith after visiting these forums and experiencing such a high concentration of uncharitable rabble.
I suspect that it is the devil who takes advantage of each and every one of us when we reach a weakened state. He knows the best place and time to strike and he hates the Mass so he leads us down this road in order to cause disunity and perdition.
Baptism may restore us to grace but the effects of original sin remain as is obvious from reading these threads. I get angry most of the time reading these things and that is why I usually don’t post. I was tauhgt as a child that if you don’t have anything good to say then don’t say anything at all! This I learned from my irreligious parents. Let us post prayerfully and sensibly. Pax tecum!
With such a well thought out post as this, I really wish you would take part much more often. There has been discussion on this on another thread, and the conclusion by all is that there is much too much personal attacks going on. My last post simply suggested that when such occurs, that we simply respond by telling the person that while such is posted on their part that no response will be given, and that they will remain in our prayers. I would then also request theirs. We shall see what this will do. But please, get more active in the forum. We need reasoned responses such as yours.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Many of these things spontaneously starting occurring in parishes over the years and I think much of it came from evangelical converts and charismatics movements.
I understand the point you’re making, but I’m curious as to what evidence exists that the source of liturgical innovations is from evangelical converts and charismatic movements. I’m sure you mean no offense, but I think it’s a bit of an unfair statement to make. We could just as easily blame dissident, cradle-Catholic priests and nuns from the 60’s and 70’s for these liturgical “innovations” (though of course, I don’t have any evidence for that either).

My point is, it is difficult (if not impossible) to p(name removed by moderator)oint the source of a particular innovation. So why blame the converts? It’s similar to the sentiments in another thread (started by Cat, no less :)) on “Protestant Hymns”: We cannot blame the problems in the liturgy or problems in liturgical music on the Protestants or the converts from Protestantism. In addition to unnecessarily alienating converts as some sort of subset of “not quite Catholic yet” Catholics, it is also oftentimes inaccurate.

Maybe your experience is different than mine, but I’ve not run into any converts that are anxious to change the Mass to be more like their Protestant services. In fact, quite the opposite. Most of the converts I know are, like yourself, quite concerned that Mass be celebrated properly.
 
Therein lies the key. Anonymous screen names on computers tend to bring out the worst in some people. I seriously doubt that anyone here would stand before the Holy Father, and declare to his face that he was both a traditionalist and a modernist…or that any changes to the NO/OF Mass would amount to putting lipstick on a pig…(or similar metaphor), like I have seen here.
I would ask him to elaborate on his already published criticisms of it.
 
I know, I know. From what’s been said in this thread, it’s clear that at some time both forms of the Mass have been held up to grievous ridicule. It’s a true heartbreak and a devastating wound to the Body of Christ. The example you cited and the other example (vulgar comparison of the EF) is enough to make one believe that he/she has fallen among heathens at best. All of us have to know that certain matters are entirely off-limits for insulting put-downs. Certainly that has to include our Popes. Who are we to judge them?
I don’t know who can judge a Pope. I would assume it would only be history and God.

The problem is that non-traditionalists are not emulating the Pope. They are using every caveat to avoid his teachings, knowing that the Latin Rite Mass should at least somewhat resemble the Latin Rite Mass at the Vatican.

People who argue against the Novus Ordo are not necessarily disobeying the Pope. It depends on their tone and the reasons behind their stances.

Who is actually obedient? It’s not the anti-traditionalists. If they were actually obedient, their Masses would follow the protocols established by the the Church, which forbid a good chunk of what we see defended here.

There are plenty of bishops who are at odds with the Holy Father. I have to take the Holy Father’s side.
 
I would ask him to elaborate on his already published criticisms of it.
Sorry, I don’t understand how your response relates to my question of whether or not someone would stand before the Holy Father and declare to his face that he was a traditionalist and a modernist at the same time…or that Paul VI was “spineless”, etc…🤷
 
Sorry, I don’t understand how your response relates to my question of whether or not someone would stand before the Holy Father and declare to his face that he was a traditionalist and a modernist at the same time…or that Paul VI was “spineless”, etc…🤷
Maybe it doesn’t.

I’d still like to talk to him, though.

Of course, I’d also like to see someone ask him, “How can you like the traditional Mass? I mean, you can’t understand it!”
 
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