What is Intelligent Design

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vern humphrey:
Yes, to both.

One “experiment” is the treatment for AIDS, where the virus mutates to gain immunity to the drugs. By manipulating the dosage and time, then switching drugs, the virus is held in check much better.

This is both the “experiment” and the “prediction” part – in fact, it goes beyond into the last step, “control.”
The problem with these examples concerning Aids and bacteria etc is that the mutation resulted in information loss in DNA. A mutation that is beneficial, but made the organism less complex. This is not the evolution that is promoted generally where information is gained and thus the organism becomes more complex. It is rather ‘devolution.’
 
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jdnation:
So what if peer review is biased?.
You’re really into conspiracy theories, aren’t you? http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
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jdnation:
It’s the same argument as the validity of consensus science. A circular argument that creationism isn’t scientific because it hasn’t been published by peer reviewed journals. And when creationist literature is actually published in one, you’d complain that it shouldn’t have been in there because it isn’t scientific.
Let me get this straight – YOU predict what you think I would do, and then condemn me for it?

You don’t understand peer review. In peer review, not only the published works, but the data behind them are open to examination. The debate follows those lines – a good example of peer review would be Belisle’s The Arming of America, a book which won the hearts of liberals because it “debunked” many gun issues.

Yet when liberal historians review it, they began to question, looked at the data – and Belisles lost his academic position.
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jdnation:
Now you’ve taken it to an extreme, I’m not talking about the first cause, simply the mechanics for how the universe came to be the way it is today. .*

No. Evolution has nothing to say about how the universe came to be the way it is today.

Evolution is about BIOLOGY, not about astrophysics.

I think this illustrates your problem – you oppose something you don’t understand.
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jdnation:
The concept of evolution has been applied to cosmology as well, and that plays a much a part in considering where biological life forms arose from, is not the environment a huge factor in biological evolution?.
The concept of evolution, as understood by biologists cannot be applied to non-living things.

The environment biolotists are concerned with is on earth.
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jdnation:
I’d say it is the evolutionary community that seems to be breaking down, and although Creationism is a minority right now, it is said to be a quickly growing. Evolution is as much non-science as Creationism. If creationism is being abandoned as you say, then why is it becoming such a hot issue these days? You’d think it would have died long ago.
Actually, creationism is shrinking, with many “creation scientists” leaving the field. There is, however, an apparently inexhaustable supply of gullible people.
 
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jdnation:
The problem with these examples concerning Aids and bacteria etc is that the mutation resulted in information loss in DNA. A mutation that is beneficial, but made the organism less complex. This is not the evolution that is promoted generally where information is gained and thus the organism becomes more complex. It is rather ‘devolution.’
Life doesn’t check a dictionary – what happens happens, whether you like it or not.

As for " information loss in DNA" can you back that up?
 
Vern>You’re really into conspiracy theories, aren’t you?

Well back in Galileo’ day, it was the general consensus that the sun revolved around the earth. Many had trouble trying to promote a heliocentric view. It was not until much later when it was proven that it was taken seriously, until then both were considered possiblities and one dominated and ridiculed the other. Are you telling me there is no bias at all in the scientific community?

I understand what peer review is. The problem is that the data behind creationism is based on a biblical belief. Since the debate on the existence of God is questioned widely by many, let alone the authenticity of Judaism and Christianity, then whatever data is there is based on an assumption. Hardly serious science. Evolution is based on similar assumptions.

Vern>No. Evolution has nothing to say about how the universe came to be the way it is today. Evolution is about BIOLOGY, not about astrophysics. I think this illustrates your problem – you oppose something you don’t understand.

Never heard of cosmological evolution? What you are referring to is biological evolution. Sorry if I confused you, but when I refer to evolution I’m used to giving the worldview of it, rising complexity, self organization in both inorganic and organic matter. The whole process of billions and millions of years from the supposed ‘Big Bang’ til today. Evolution is a worldview, the concept can define everything. Just like Creationism can.

Vern>Actually, creationism is shrinking, with many “creation scientists” leaving the field. There is, however, an apparently inexhaustable supply of gullible people.

I don’t know about the first part, could be true as you say. But I can agree with the second in either case.

Vern>Life doesn’t check a dictionary – what happens happens, whether you like it or not. As for " information loss in DNA" can you back that up?

I’ll give it a shot… from what I know, aren’t mutations a result of a ‘copying error’ in the DNA database? Therefore due to mistakes, the proper information isn’t followed, only a reduction of it, the mistake happens because it happens whether one likes it or not, and the mutation is a result of that, and depending on the circumstance could be beneficial. Am I wrong here?

If not, are there any examples available where ‘information’ in DNA actually increases, therefore causing a ‘mutation’ based on new data? If so where does this new information come from to give an organism more complexity?
 
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jdnation:
Well back in Galileo’ day, it was the general consensus that the sun revolved around the earth. Many had trouble trying to promote a heliocentric view. It was not until much later when it was proven that it was taken seriously, until then both were considered possiblities and one dominated and ridiculed the other.
Not in the scientific community. The heliocentric universe was well accepted in those days.
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jdnation:
Are you telling me there is no bias at all in the scientific community?
The bias is in those who want the truth to be what they want, and not what the evidence shows – “creation scientists” are a good example of this bias.
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jdnation:
I understand what peer review is. The problem is that the data behind creationism is based on a biblical belief.
Or more accurately on a biased religious view.
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jdnation:
Since the debate on the existence of God is questioned widely by many, let alone the authenticity of Judaism and Christianity, then whatever data is there is based on an assumption. Hardly serious science…
Religion is not science, nor does science pretend to be able to answer religious questions.
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jdnation:
Evolution is based on similar assumptions…
No. Evolution is based on hard evidence – evidence anyone who wishes can verify. I can walk around my own property and find fossils – remains of plants and animals that lived here long ago. Yet I cannot (with a very few exceptions) find LIVING examples of those plants and animals.

By going into the rock strata at different places, I can see that the life forms in this area have “turned over” many times. I can see it with my own eyes.
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jdnation:
Never heard of cosmological evolution? …
Which has nothing to do with biological evolution.

If we’re going to play that game, I could point to the evolution of the law and say that proves biological evolution!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
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jdnation:
What you are referring to is biological evolution. Sorry if I confused you, but when I refer to evolution I’m used to giving the worldview of it, rising complexity, self organization in both inorganic and organic matter. The whole process of billions and millions of years from the supposed ‘Big Bang’ til today. Evolution is a worldview, the concept can define everything. Just like Creationism can.
In other words, you’re confusing yourself.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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jdnation:
I’ll give it a shot… from what I know, aren’t mutations a result of a ‘copying error’ in the DNA database? .
Explain the relationship of mutations and evolution as you understand them.
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jdnation:
Therefore due to mistakes, the proper information isn’t followed, only a reduction of it, the mistake happens because it happens whether one likes it or not, and the mutation is a result of that, and depending on the circumstance could be beneficial. Am I wrong here?.
Yes. Evolution doesn’t depend on “mutations” but upon natural variation.
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jdnation:
If not, are there any examples available where ‘information’ in DNA actually increases, therefore causing a ‘mutation’ based on new data? If so where does this new information come from to give an organism more complexity?
What is this obsession with “information?” Does this have something to do with your mistaken idea that mutation is the mechanism of evolution?

In our lifetimes, we must study creatures with shorter lifespans. Among those are bacteria and viruses. We have many cases of viruses and bacteria evolving due to either environmental opportunities (HIV, Lyme Disease, Lassa Fever) or our attempts to kill them (again, HIV, anti-biotic resistant tuberculosis, streptococci, and so on.)

I have shown how some of these organisms have evolved, how we use the theory of evolution to predict their behavior, and to control it.

QED
 
From Theodosius Dobzhansky, the famous geneticist and an Orthodox Christian:

“Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.” (Dobzhansky, “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” American Biology Teacher, March 1973)

Biologist Darrel Falk, an evangelical Christian who teaches at a Nazarene university, in his wonderful book Coming to Peace with Science (Intervarsity Press, 2004) has stated:

“The fact is that Christianity has core beliefs that are not accessible to the scientific method…The resurrection, existence of the Holy Spirit and immortality are all beyond the realm of scientific testability. Even testing the power of prayer will probably not bring scientists to their knees. The history of life on earth, however, is in a much different category. It has been possible to explore this using scientific methods…For the past century and a half, thousands of scientists from disciplines as diverse as physics, geology, astronomy and biology have amassed a tremendous mass of data, and the answer is absolutely clear and equally certain. The earth is not young, and the life forms did not appear in six twenty-four-hour days. God created gradually…We now know more about the nature of divine action. We now know a little about how God created life, and any time we understand something new about the activity of God, it brings us one step closer to God.” (Falk, Coming to Peace with Science: Bridging the Worlds Between Faith and Biology, page 213, 214)

Biologist Kenneth Miller, a self-described “orthodox Catholic and orthodox Darwinist” writes on creationism or “creation science” :

“In order to defend God against the challenge they see from evolution, they have had to make Him into a schemer, a trickster, even a charlatan. Their version of God is one who intentionally plants misleading clues beneath our feet and in the heavens themselves. Their version of God is one who has filled the universe with so much bogus evidence that the tools of science can give us nothing more than a phony version of reality. In other words, their God has negated science by rigging the universe with fiction and deception. To embrace that God, we must reject science and worship deception itself…One can, of course, imagine a Creator who could have produced all of the illusions that the creationists claim to find in nature. In order to do so, we must simultaneously conclude that science can tell us nothing about nature, and that the Creator to whom many of us pray is inherently deceitful. Such so-called creation science, thoroughly analyzed, corrupts both science and religion, and it deserves a place in the intellectual wastebasket.” (Kenneth Miller, Finding Darwin’s God [1999], page 80)

And finally, Mike Behe the “champion” of intelligent design freely admits –

“The point I’m trying to drive home here by discussing my own work as well as the work of [Kenneth] Miller and [John] Haught, is that a very wide range of views about the mechanism of evolution is consistent with Catholic teaching, from the natural selection defended by [Kenneth] Miller, to the intelligent design I have proposed, to the animated, information-suffused universe that John Haught sees. Those mechanisms are all proposed by persons who attach the same bottom-line philosophy to their ideas that Pope John Paul described: that ‘it is the God of Israel who acts’ and that ‘it is the one and the same God who establishes and guarantees the intelligibility and reasonableness of the natural order of things upon which scientists confidently depend, and who reveals himself as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.’ Indeed, the range of possibilities that are available under a Catholic viewpoint is much wider than under a materialistic viewpoint.” (Michael Behe, from “A Catholic Scientist Looks at Darwinism” in Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing edited by William Dembski [2004], page 143-144)

All quotes from my articles here

Phil P
 
Vern> Not in the scientific community. The heliocentric universe was well accepted in those days.

Really? Then all that confusion between the Church and Galileo’s ego etc that you can find outlined at Catholic Answers… was what? Galileo couldn’t answer Aristotle’s arguments at that time and Aristotle’s view was the generally accepted one amongst the scientific community and universities. A few Jesuits and other known men as Kepler believed in a heliocentric view. They had problems in confronting the consensus of the day.

Vern> The bias is in those who want the truth to be what they want, and not what the evidence shows – “creation scientists” are a good example of this bias… Or more accurately on a biased religious view.

Well, of course creationists are biased. They hold to a particular worldview. Evolutionists hold to another one. Each, of course, will compete with each other.

Vern> Religion is not science, nor does science pretend to be able to answer religious questions.

Agreed, but people try anyway, don’t they?

Vern>No. Evolution is based on hard evidence – evidence anyone who wishes can verify. I can walk around my own property and find fossils – remains of plants and animals that lived here long ago. Yet I cannot (with a very few exceptions) find LIVING examples of those plants and animals. By going into the rock strata at different places, I can see that the life forms in this area have “turned over” many times. I can see it with my own eyes.

Same with creationists, we look at the same fossils remains and strata. We simply reach a different conclusion due to our biased predisposition.

Vern>In other words, you’re confusing yourself.

Or you simply don’t understand the concept of interpreting things according to a worldview.

Vern>Evolution doesn’t depend on “mutations” but upon natural variation.

So if it’s simply variation, when does a creature become something other than what it is? From simple cells to a human being? What would you call that scale of variation? Which school of evolution do you belong to? The gradulist or punctuationist?

Vern>In our lifetimes, we must study creatures with shorter lifespans. Among those are bacteria and viruses. We have many cases of viruses and bacteria evolving due to either environmental opportunities (HIV, Lyme Disease, Lassa Fever) or our attempts to kill them (again, HIV, anti-biotic resistant tuberculosis, streptococci, and so on.) I have shown how some of these organisms have evolved, how we use the theory of evolution to predict their behavior, and to control it.

But they didn’t evolve… they changed, but there was no new information added. It’s a typical response to say, “Oh what’s with this obsession with information?” DNA contains information on how to make an organism. In order for Organisms to gain more complexity they require more information. How does DNA gain complexity? Can you answer that instead of avoiding the question?

We can ignore mutations if you like and talk about natural variation, which is basically changes with the information one already has in the gene pool. In other words the same genes will be rearranged and variate, but then the organism will pretty much remain what it is… for a meagre example to express this idea, snowflakes variate in their crystalization, but snowflakes are still snowflakes. In order for something to become more complex, something other than what it is, it would have to have something that isn’t usual to the gene pool it picks from. Something that will differentiate from it from its parent, and it would have to have a more complex (have something more that it’s parent doesn’t) in order to be considered ‘evolved.’
 
Intelligent Design is theology masquerading as science. Properly understood, science does not take theological positions, but merely studies and identifies their results as observable phenomena.

I have no problem with the underlying argument of ID, namely that God created the Universe and guides everything. My problem is that this can’t be deduced scientifically as ID claims. Their arguments always end up stepping away from pure science and into the philosophical or theological realm. This makes their scientific method sloppy, because they are no longer limiting their scientific work to the observable and testable.

It’s like trying to use the moral arguments from the Book of Job to describe how to kick a soccer ball. You can be the most orthodox Catholic, holy Catholic in the world, but you aren’t going to be using Scripture to describe the process of a soccer match. The two things, faith and the rules of the game, exist in completely different spheres of influence. You’re not asked to leave your Catholic beliefs at the sidelines, it’s just that they don’t directly apply to the game, and ultimately the better soccer player will be the person who knows how to play, not the one who knows the most Scripture (though they can be one and the same person, or can know Scripture equally well).

Basically, ID tries to make science into something that it’s not, namely a theological argument. It is no different from those who try to use science to prove their atheist positions and always fail miserably. Science just can’t be bent to directly make theological arguments. Even the Big Bang Theory, which is the biggest Christian win in the field of science, only explains the process without pressuming the cause.
 
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jdnation:
Really? Then all that confusion between the Church and Galileo’s ego etc that you can find outlined at Catholic Answers… was what? Galileo couldn’t answer Aristotle’s arguments at that time and Aristotle’s view was the generally accepted one amongst the scientific community and universities. A few Jesuits and other known men as Kepler believed in a heliocentric view. They had problems in confronting the consensus of the day.
Did you fall into your own trap?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

You pretend that** non**-scientific opinion should hold – the “consensus of the day” is not the same as “scientific consensus.” People like Kepler and Brahe were the scientists. And they accepted the heliocentric universe.
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jdnation:
Well, of course creationists are biased. They hold to a particular worldview. Evolutionists hold to another one. Each, of course, will compete with each other.
The difference being biologists and other scientists can show actual, physical evidence for their view. Show me equivallent evidence for “creation science.” Tell me where to go along the banks of Lick Fork Creek, where I find fossils, to find evidence of “creation science.”
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jdnation:
Agreed, but people try anyway, don’t they?
The people in question are not scientists, and are not using the scientiic method.
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jdnation:
Same with creationists, we look at the same fossils remains and strata. We simply reach a different conclusion due to our biased predisposition.
Show me. Tell me where I find evidence, hard physical evidence that supports “creation science.”

Tell me how “creation science” can explain the multiple turn-over of life forms in this area that I find in the fossil record.
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jdnation:
Or you simply don’t understand the concept of interpreting things according to a worldview…
No, I understand very well how starting with a conclusion and trying to develop rational support for it works.
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jdnation:
So if it’s simply variation, when does a creature become something other than what it is? From simple cells to a human being? What would you call that scale of variation? Which school of evolution do you belong to? The gradulist or punctuationist?..
You like to mix questions, don’t you?

Variation produces many types – some at the far ends of the bell curve. Under environmental pressure, survival may well be limited to one extreme or the other. Continued pressure can select the extreme of the extremes.

No “mutations” required – just normal, natural variation and environmental pressure.
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jdnation:
But they didn’t evolve… they changed, ?..
That’s called “evolving.”
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jdnation:
but there was no new information added. It’s a typical response to say, “Oh what’s with this obsession with information?” DNA contains information on how to make an organism. In order for Organisms to gain more complexity they require more information. How does DNA gain complexity? Can you answer that instead of avoiding the question?
I’ve already answered it – see above.

The “new information” idea is not one that is accepted as a standard for evolution. Organisms become more complex when the environment selects for complexity.
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jdnation:
We can ignore mutations if you like and talk about natural variation, which is basically changes with the information one already has in the gene pool.
Like most “creation scientists” you have a very poor understanding of biology. DNA, even for simple life forms, is quite complex, and the key genes for a given species make up only a small fraction of the DNA molecular chain.

You seem to think that you have to add something to the DNA chain to make a more complex creature. You don’t – you simply have to have the proper genes coded and switched on.
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jdnation:
In other words the same genes will be rearranged and variate, but then the organism will pretty much remain what it is
Dead wrong.

You assume the DNA molecule is capacitated in all living species. It isn’t.

Humans, for example, share about 99% of their genes with Chimpanzees – simply switching on some genes and others off makes a big difference.
 
There is no reasons why science and religion can not coexist!

A great scientist once calculated that the chances for life randomly starting are 1 in a trillion trillion. That’s:

1 / 1000000000000000000000000

But you all are forgetting something very important:

We are not God.

We do not know why He did what He did. We don’t know how He did it. Our minds cannot comprehend that of the Creator!

We can try as much as we want to understand EVERYTHING, but it will never happen!

But can you honestly accept the fact that we came to be through a series of mere chemical changes? The belief that our lives mean absolutely nothing but to perpetuate society and feed the Earth? I simply can not accept these claims, and that is one the main reasons I believe there is a God, that I have a soul and a purpose, that my life means something!
 
vern humphrey:
What is this obsession with “information?”
Information seems to be a key concept in Intelligent Design. However, ID proponents seem to alternate at will between Shannon’s definition (where randomness implies low information content) and Kolmogorov’s definition (where randomness implies high information content).
 
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kyle8921:
There is no reasons why science and religion can not coexist!

A great scientist once calculated that the chances for life randomly starting are 1 in a trillion trillion. That’s:

1 / 1000000000000000000000000

But you all are forgetting something very important:

We are not God.

We do not know why He did what He did. We don’t know how He did it. Our minds cannot comprehend that of the Creator!

We can try as much as we want to understand EVERYTHING, but it will never happen!

But can you honestly accept the fact that we came to be through a series of mere chemical changes? The belief that our lives mean absolutely nothing but to perpetuate society and feed the Earth? I simply can not accept these claims, and that is one the main reasons I believe there is a God, that I have a soul and a purpose, that my life means something!
Why should evolution cast any doubt on God? Who are we to tell Him how to do His business?

He made a universe that is a beautiful, complex thing. He allows us to learn about His universe for our benefit – things like electricity, computers, smelting metals and so on.

As we continue to study His creation, we learn more and more – including about the complexity of life that He created.
 
But can you honestly accept the fact that we came to be through a series of mere chemical changes? The belief that our lives mean absolutely nothing but to perpetuate society and feed the Earth? I simply can not accept these claims, and that is one the main reasons I believe there is a God, that I have a soul and a purpose, that my life means something!
Agreed. It’s important to remember, however, that the views you are arguing against are NOT scientific arguments, but rather philosophical and theological ones. Most pure scientists would agree that it’s impossible to scientifically say that we came about “merely through chemical changes.” They would simply say that chemical changes appear to be how we came about, and leave the greater question of why such changes occur, or why chemicals exist at all, to philosophers and theologians.

Let me put it this way. When I’m treating an injury or an illness, I don’t care WHY it happened. It’s absolutely irrelevent for me to know WHY someone hit my patient on the head with a baseball bat, the social workers can deal with that. I just need to know HOW the injury happened, what was hit, how hard was the swing, when did it happen, ect. Delving into the whys actually takes away from my ability to do my job, which is to fix the immediate emergency problem. Of course I have moral values, opinions, and beliefs that go beyond my medical practice, I wouldn’t be human if I didn’t. My job is fixing people up, however, not applying my theological values to every circumstance that comes up in my ambulance. Science is in a similar boat, and should stick to the job it’s designed for.
 
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Catholic2003:
Information seems to be a key concept in Intelligent Design. However, ID proponents seem to alternate at will between Shannon’s definition (where randomness implies low information content) and Kolmogorov’s definition (where randomness implies high information content).
That way they can’t be pinned down, can they?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

The discussion reminds me of a guy who was trying to start a new major baseball league some years ago. Somebody asked him how his negotiations with the Baseball Commissioners was going.

“When I try to talk business, they talk ‘the good of baseball.’ When I talk ‘the good of baseball,’ they want totalk business.”
 
Vern>Did you fall into your own trap? You pretend that non-scientific opinion should hold – the “consensus of the day” is not the same as “scientific consensus.” People like Kepler and Brahe were the scientists. And they accepted the heliocentric universe.

What trap? Consensus is consensus, you know very well I was referring to the scientific community. People who were not Kepler or Brahe were also scientists, or do you only consider people you’ve heard of as scientists?

Vern>The difference being biologists and other scientists can show actual, physical evidence for their view. Show me equivallent evidence for “creation science.” Tell me where to go along the banks of Lick Fork Creek, where I find fossils, to find evidence of “creation science.”

Same places you get the evidence for ‘evolution science.’ It’s not like we’re picking and choosing fossils and strata. We all live on the same planet. An evolutionist and a creationist examine the same fossil. It’s just that they have different ideas of what it is, how old it is and how it got there.

Vern>The people in question are not scientists, and are not using the scientiic method.

Because we all know real scientists are impeccable in everything they do…

Vern>Show me. Tell me where I find evidence, hard physical evidence that supports “creation science.” Tell me how “creation science” can explain the multiple turn-over of life forms in this area that I find in the fossil record.

Well, you can start with the Answers in Genesis site or ICR.org. www.answersingenesis.org has a nice question and answer page. Read their explanations and see if they make sense from their worldview. You can even write to them, they do respond very shortly.

Vern>That’s called “evolving.”

It is more specifically called ‘micro-evolution’ something all creationists agree on. It is not ‘macro-evolution’ which is the area where all the controversy is and what we are trying to discuss.

Vern>Like most “creation scientists” you have a very poor understanding of biology. DNA, even for simple life forms, is quite complex, and the key genes for a given species make up only a small fraction of the DNA molecular chain. You seem to think that you have to add something to the DNA chain to make a more complex creature. You don’t – you simply have to have the proper genes coded and switched on.

In which case you’re then saying that our ancestral early simple celled organisms had all the complexity that we do. In which case you next problem is how such complexity existed at the beginning through chance. You could say, “God did it.” In which case that would make you an ID advocate.

As for the turning on/off gene scenario, turning off genes will stop growth of some areas of the body. But this by itself won’t produce something else, it’s only off. Which leaves turning on something new to create new organs or whatever. Which means that all such information should be there from the beginning of the organism’s creation. (And I say creation because I’m assuming that you agree that God is the Creator, right? 😉 ). This doesn’t fly with the scientific community who prefer to leave God out of the equation as much as possible. For them (non-ID), on the whole, it arose by chance. For the ID advocates, it was God who did it, since they find it highly improbable. But if you’re going to go the extra mile and not associate yourself with the ID’ers then you’re basically asking me to accept the idea that such complexity arose all at once purely by chance, and that many genes turned ‘on’ and ‘off’ to give the next organism a wholly new form as Stephen Jay Gould postulated through his idea of ‘punctuated equilibria’ because a gradual method of only growing new organs a small percentage at a time, overtime, doesn’t cut it.

To accept such a thing as that, requires what would be equivalent of a religious faith on the matter.

Vern>Why should evolution cast any doubt on God? Who are we to tell Him how to do His business?

It doesn’t necessarily, but scientists have an idea that in order to learn more about His creation we have to continually push Him more and more out of the picture. If anything, evolution to me is as miraculous as Genesis Creation (some evolutionists boast that it is even more so, in which case it would make it more improbable than ‘instantaneous’ creation) and makes the possibility of God even more real to fix evolution’s problems. And the problem is not telling God how to do His business, it’s more a matter of what we believe He told us through Scripture.
 
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jdnation:
What trap? Consensus is consensus, you know very well I was referring to the scientific community. People who were not Kepler or Brahe were also scientists, or do you only consider people you’ve heard of as scientists?.
You’re setting off my smoke detector with arguments like that.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

We’re talking scientific consensus – and the scientists of the day well knew, and demonstrated by actual measurements and observations that the earth orbited the sun.
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jdnation:
Same places you get the evidence for ‘evolution science.’ It’s not like we’re picking and choosing fossils and strata. We all live on the same planet. An evolutionist and a creationist examine the same fossil. It’s just that they have different ideas of what it is, how old it is and how it got there…
The difference being, you haven’t offered any of those fossils and strata for evidence. I go out and find them myself, and what I find matches what science finds.
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jdnation:
Because we all know real scientists are impeccable in everything they do…
More smoke – you fail to make a case that “creation science” is science…
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jdnation:
Well, you can start with the Answers in Genesis site or ICR.org. www.answersingenesis.org has a nice question and answer page. Read their explanations and see if they make sense from their worldview. You can even write to them, they do respond very shortly…
A site put up by the usual suspects – I don’t see them doing any science.
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jdnation:
It is more specifically called ‘micro-evolution’ something all creationists agree on. It is not ‘macro-evolution’ which is the area where all the controversy is and what we are trying to discuss.
It’s evolving. It works as expected, and it allows us to contol the outcome.
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jdnation:
In which case you’re then saying that our ancestral early simple celled organisms had all the complexity that we do. In which case you next problem is how such complexity existed at the beginning through chance. You could say, “God did it.” In which case that would make you an ID advocate…
I believe God created the Universe and all life – I don’t abandon my critical faculties to follow Intelligent Design (Capital I, Capital D, marka registrada, patent applied for.)
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jdnation:
As for the turning on/off gene scenario, turning off genes will stop growth of some areas of the body. But this by itself won’t produce something else, it’s only off. Which leaves turning on something new to create new organs or whatever. Which means that all such information should be there from the beginning of the organism’s creation. (And I say creation because I’m assuming that you agree that God is the Creator, right? 😉 ). .
No, genes can be turned on that pre-existed. That’s how natural variation works. The DNA itself can be altered as well, but by and large, it is a matter of switching genes.
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jdnation:
This doesn’t fly with the scientific community who prefer to leave God out of the equation as much as possible. .
Doesn’t follow. Science cannot weigh, measure, or classify God. And scientists don’t pretend they can.

To accept such a thing as that, requires what would be equivalent of a religious faith on the matter.
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jdnation:
It doesn’t necessarily, but scientists have an idea that in order to learn more about His creation we have to continually push Him more and more out of the picture…
That’s simply not true – and you haven’t offered a shred of evidence it is.
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jdnation:
If anything, evolution to me is as miraculous as Genesis Creation (some evolutionists boast that it is even more so, in which case it would make it more improbable than ‘instantaneous’ creation) and makes the possibility of God even more real to fix evolution’s problems. And the problem is not telling God how to do His business, it’s more a matter of what we believe He told us through Scripture.
And that matter is up to the Magisterium, not to lay preachers and amateur “interpreters.”
 
vern humphrey:
And that matter is up to the Magisterium, not to lay preachers and amateur “interpreters.”
The Magisterium has called for a new dialogue between science and religion, the natural and supernatural. A dialogue that has been missing lately and hostile in the past.

There should be room for current and past theories to make their case.

The Church has been defending itself against evolution for 2000 years from both amateurs and professionals. And the Pope’s statement that a Catholic can believe in a theory that seems to have made headway is not by any means saying it is so. Science and religon must equal truth, they cannot in the end be opposed. We must continue the search with open minds whervever it takes us.

To limit the discussion runs contrary to dialogue between the natural and supernatural.

Allow the debate to take place without ridicule. What is the fear?
 
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buffalo:
The Magisterium has called for a new dialogue between science and religion, the natural and supernatural. A dialogue that has been missing lately and hostile in the past.

There should be room for current and past theories to make their case.
And those that fail, like “creation science” should be allowed to die a quiet death.
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buffalo:
The Church has been defending itself against evolution for 2000 years from both amateurs and professionals.
Two thousand years, is it? I was not aware Darwin lived that far back.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Can you give me an example of, say Irenaeus, defending the Church against evolution?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
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buffalo:
And the Pope’s statement that a Catholic can believe in a theory that seems to have made headway is not by any means saying it is so. Science and religon must equal truth, they cannot in the end be opposed. We must continue the search with open minds whervever it takes us.
Which is why we reject closed mind theories like “creation science.”
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buffalo:
To limit the discussion runs contrary to dialogue between the natural and supernatural.

Allow the debate to take place without ridicule. What is the fear?
When one espouses the ridiculous, one must accept the consequences. You aren’t offering debate – you’re making unsubstantiated claims.
 
vern humphrey:
You’re setting off my smoke detector with arguments like that.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

We’re talking scientific consensus – and the scientists of the day well knew, and demonstrated by actual measurements and observations that the earth orbited the sun.

."
Again,careless mediocrity with plenty of generalised statements without even knowing the ins and outs of the technical arguments which make Kepler entirely different than Brahe,and what method they used as hypothesis(in the astronomical sense which they used it rather than the diluted guesswork which it is today).

Tycho proposed a quasi-geocentric system which would not work because in his system the Sun and Mars would intersect while Kepler’s system’s is the one that emerged and those empirical freaks hijacked by applying a 'gravitational’cause tied to terrestial ballistics.

The other day ,one really intelligent Catholic pointed out that the Church cannot afford to lose Western Christianity and rely on newly emerging ones because it sets the precedence that as people become ‘enlightened’ they drop Christianity just like people drop communism for consumerism.

Of course I can count on your vacuous reply.
 
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oriel36:
Again,careless mediocrity with plenty of generalised statements without even knowing the ins and outs of the technical arguments which make Kepler entirely different than Brahe,and what method they used as hypothesis(in the astronomical sense which they used it rather than the diluted guesswork which it is today).

Tycho proposed a quasi-geocentric system which would not work because in his system the Sun and Mars would intersect while Kepler’s system’s is the one that emerged and those empirical freaks hijacked by applying a 'gravitational’cause tied to terrestial ballistics…
So what? They were working on the problem of the structure of the Solar System, and both saw the flaws in the old Ptolomaic system.

And what does any of this have to do with evolution?
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oriel36:
The other day ,one really intelligent Catholic pointed out that the Church cannot afford to lose Western Christianity and rely on newly emerging ones because it sets the precedence that as people become ‘enlightened’ they drop Christianity just like people drop communism for consumerism…
Which means what?
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oriel36:
Of course I can count on your vacuous reply.
When you begin using language like that, it’s a clear sign you’ve lost the argument.
 
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