What is it that homosexuals really want?

[fix]

There is evidence that the Church went astray quite a while ago too. You aren’t bringing that up. Of course your rebuttal will be "How so? Do tell?

Well if you make that assertion don’t ya think you ought to provide proof?

and when the disciples were amazed they asked who can be saved? Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

OK…

So there! By the way if you persecute others as I attempt to persecute you, we only do the enemies job. so we are gonna have to compromise at some point.

I am really trying hard to follow you. Honestly, some of what you write seems to cryptic to me.

 

[PompousMaximus]

Well if you make that assertion don’t ya think you ought to provide proof?

OK…

I am really trying hard to follow you. Honestly, some of what you write seems to cryptic to me.

Not really that cryptic just poor writing skills.

 

[PompousMaximus]

You can change my mind by showing me how my understanding contradicts objective truth.

I never said God told me anything.

I am not grinding you anywhere. You seem miffed because I refuse to accept your position.
I am not giving you my personal opinion. I am stating what the Church teaches.

Why do I lack humility because I refuse to compromise on the teachings of Christ?

You lack humility because you use Jesus as an example and yet you don’t humble yourself as He did. Jesus was a compromise between the creation and God. It is the ultimate example of humility, and if you are not into compromising I would think you are not in line with what Jesus meant for us to be to each other.

But the Church teaches that whatever Faith you are, you have a chance at salvation. At least JPII stated as much in the following

“Taking up the Council’s teaching from the first Encyclical Letter of my Pontificate, I have wished to recall the ancient doctrine formulated by the Fathers of the Church, which says that we must recognize “the seeds of the Word” present and active in the various religions”

and further

This doctrine leads us to affirm that, though the routes taken may be different, “there is but a single goal to which is directed the deepest aspiration of the human spirit as expressed in its quest for God and also in its quest, through its tending towards God, for the full dimension of its humanity, or in other words, for the full meaning of human life”

Now that is true Catholic humility.

 

[Odell]

But how can you claim exclusive rights to Truth? Christ is bigger than your Church and mine. He exists outside of the Church, in the communities of billions across the world. You do not have exclusive rights to what you think He would like defined as Truth! Whether it comes from your “Church” or not. You claim authority from a Church not from God, in saying that you are right because Jesus told you so 2000 years ago is an overstatement. Your Church is a flawed human institution just like all the others. Accept the fact that we all make mistakes we all sin we all judge, and get off the high horse. Jesus rode on a donkey, not a chariot or war horse. Claim no authority and be one with God.

The apostles were sinners as well but they claimed authority did they not? Were they on some kind of high horse?

(Jn;11:49-51)
*49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

*51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation."

You see God works through sinners it’s all he has to work with.

It seems you look more and more not like the true Church. You say your authority is Jesus, can’t you see it’s easy to just make up some little Jesus in your head? Scripture tell us

Hebrews 13:17
“Obey them that have the auhority over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”

I’ll ask again who do you summit to?

 

[Weareyoung]

You are entirely right. Love is a choice. So why are we continuing to talk of an “LGBT” agenda when we ourselves as Christians have our own Agenda? And if you place all homosexuals into one big pile and stereotype them as “deviant” you do the same thing that they do to we Christians. lump us all together and speak of us as one “collective” that needs changing, because a bunch of us cannot mind our own business.

There is a certain liberty to Christianity just look for it. There are good good homosexual people out there who Love God with all their hearts, and Love their neighbors more than themselves and we condemn them by just plopping them all on one plate and spraying some ketchup on them and calling it sloppy joe.

I think we need to understand that we should look at people on an individual level, instead of looking at the masses. It would be wrong to stereotype someone as deviant without actually knowing them. But there is a big difference between the “LGBT” agenda and the agenda of Christ. An agenda can be a good or bad thing. I would argue that the “LGBT” one which is trying to get legislation passed that would redefine marriage is not a good one. This stuff does affect other people. We need to ask ourselves as individuals the question of “is this the direction we want our country to go in?” Politically I don’t think I can come up with an argument to force two consenting people to not have sex in private. But what I can fight politically and socially and can come up with arguments against is when unethical actions are encouraged and when we are forced to accept same-sex “marriage.”

Homosexual “marriage” degrades sex and especially marriage to have no meaning. We really need to define what love means and my opinion is that sex is not love. Less and less people are getting married (as I’ve heard somewhere, I think on the news) and from experience in high school and college, I know that more people are having sex who are not married. You have a choice of who to love. You have a choice of who to have sex with. And there are such things as bad moral decisions that affect other people. If we don’t value marriage and family or even life in the womb in our culture, what’s wrong with same-sex “marriage”? You said “we as Christians have or own agenda.” I’m not sure what you believe that agenda is. If it means desiring the best for other people and “love your neighbor as yourself” I’m probably part of it. If it’s some perversion that has anything to do with hate or encouraging other people to devalue sex and marriage, I am not for it.

We need to make distinctions. And this “LGBT” agenda has made no distinctions and does not attempt to make distinctions and equates itself with the Civil Rights movement. This doesn’t make sense, because if this is a “Civil Right” it would force churches and any other private institution to sanction same-sex “marriage.” Because if it were a “Civil Right,” that would be discrimination. But it is not a Civil Right. A Civil Right is always a Civil Right and a race is not defined by actions they take. Individuals are “defined” by actions they take (even though I probably chose the wrong word, defined, but I’m trying to make a point.) I know that in California before Proposition 8 passed Civil Unions of same-sex couples had all the rights of opposite sex married couples. They had everything but the name marriage. And even if they have the name “marriage” from the state it will not make their relationship an actual marriage.

I am not speaking of this as an abstract concept. I am speaking about this because I know about the presence of this “LGBT” agenda at my University. And this is the agenda I am referring to in my post.

As Christians to say that we should ignore sin, because Christ will forgive them (even if they make no attempt to not sin) and we make no attempt to tell them that same sex “marriage” is wrong, is not just wrong for personal religious reasons. It’s wrong because it has very real social effects on our communities and ultimately the entire United States. To say that we should just ignore people trying to fundamentally transform our culture from the ground up would be a grave mistake. Indifference can be a problem. As always we should love others as Christ loved us and always avoid encouraging other people to sin. It’s easy to get swept under the grip of other people’s bad moral opinions if you’re not firm in what you believe.

And, PompousMaximus, I have no idea what you mean by “there is a certain liberty to Christianity.” That could be a good or bad thing. And I don’t know what you mean by “good good homosexual people.” Do you mean people who have that orientation or who commit those kinds of actions regularly or both? And I would argue that you do not love God with all your heart, if you commit those kinds of actions regularly, especially if you know it’s wrong and make no attempt to seek forgiveness.

If you still don’t believe an “LGBT” agenda exists, just go to the Planned Parenthood websites. This stuff is real.

 

[fix]

You lack humility because you use Jesus as an example and yet you don’t humble yourself as He did.

The measure of humility is obedience. How can we claim friendship with Christ while rejecting what He taught?

Jesus was a compromise between the creation and God. It is the ultimate example of humility, and if you are not into compromising I would think you are not in line with what Jesus meant for us to be to each other.

Compromise is not a god. Jesus never compromised on the moral law.

But the Church teaches that whatever Faith you are, you have a chance at salvation. At least JPII stated as much in the following

Sure, but that is not what we are talking about in this thread.

“Taking up the Council’s teaching from the first Encyclical Letter of my Pontificate, I have wished to recall the ancient doctrine formulated by the Fathers of the Church, which says that we must recognize “the seeds of the Word” present and active in the various religions”

Yes, but that does not mean everything that is taught is without error in other churches.

and further

This doctrine leads us to affirm that, though the routes taken may be different, “there is but a single goal to which is directed the deepest aspiration of the human spirit as expressed in its quest for God and also in its quest, through its tending towards God, for the full dimension of its humanity, or in other words, for the full meaning of human life”

Now that is true Catholic humility.

I think you are confusing humility with being lax. You simply cannot take small quotes from the bible or from popes and create a type of false theology.

The Church does not teach homosexual acts are licit.

 

[PompousMaximus]

I think we need to understand that we should look at people on an individual level, instead of looking at the masses. It would be wrong to stereotype someone as deviant without actually knowing them. But there is a big socially and can come up with arguments against is when unethical actions are encouraged and when we are forced to accept same-sex “marriage.”

But in you accepting it do you think you are going to be condemned by God?

Homosexual “marriage” degrades sex and especially marriage to have no meaning. We really need to define what love means and my opinion is that sex is not love. Less and less people are getting married (as I’ve heard sthe best for other people and “love your neighbor as yourself” I’m probably part of it. If it’s some perversion that has anything to do with hate or encouraging other people to devalue sex and marriage, I am not for it.

I would argue that two consenting adults wanting to adopt is a far better option than letting that child rot away somewhere in foster care, love is love. and that has nothing to do with whether or not they are practicing homosexuality. That would be an example that values family just as much we heterosexual Christian married couples do.

We need to make distinctions. And this “LGBT” agenda has made no distinctions and does not attempt to make distinctions and equates itself with the Civil Rights movement. This doesn’t make sense, because if this is a “Civil Right” it would force churches and any other private institution to sanction same-sex “marriage.” Because if it were a “Civil Right,” that would be discrimination. But it is not a Civil Right. A Civil Right is always a Civil Right and a race is not defined by actions they take. Individuals are “defined” by actions they take (even though I probably chose the wrong word, defined, but I’m trying to make a point.) I know that in California before Proposition 8 passed Civil Unions of same-sex couples had all the rights of opposite sex married couples. They had everything but the name marriage. And even if they have the name “marriage” from the state it will not make their relationship an actual marriage.

But it is civil in a civil country. Our founders had a simple idea that is very hard to maintain. But it works great with Christianity. Liberty, thats it. You can use the words of the bible to justify anything you want, especially directly before the civil war when this countries southern states justified slavery where as the northern states used the same book to justify the opposite ideal.

Its dangerous to use God’s word to inspire anything but love.

I am not speaking of this as an abstract concept. I am speaking about this because I know about the presence of this “LGBT” agenda at my University. And this is the agenda I am referring to in my post.

Agenda degrades what they fight for. Using that term agenda devalues them as humans. They cease to have feeling, they cease to have an actual human presence.

As Christians to say that we should ignore sin, because Christ will forgive them (even if they make no attempt to not sin) and we make no attempt to tell them that same sex “marriage” is wrong, is not just wrong for personal religious reasons. It’s wrong because it has very real social effects on our communities and ultimately the entire United States. To say that we should just ignore people trying to fundamentally transform our culture from the ground up would be a grave mistake. Indifference can be a problem. As always we should love others as Christ loved us and always avoid encouraging other people to sin. It’s easy to get swept under the grip of other people’s bad moral opinions if you’re not firm in what you believe.

The social affects of heterosexuals having sex willy nilly does the same thing that homosexual willy nilly sex has. If the couple is committed then it should be left alone.

And, PompousMaximus, I have no idea what you mean by “there is a certain liberty to Christianity.” That could be a good or bad thing. And I don’t know what you mean by “good good homosexual people.” Do you mean people who have that orientation or who commit those kinds of actions regularly or both? And I would argue that you do not love God with all your heart, if you commit those kinds of actions regularly, especially if you know it’s wrong and make no attempt to seek forgiveness.

I made my point earlier. Christ should liberate us of sin, not live in fear of what it does to us and does to others.

If you still don’t believe an “LGBT” agenda exists, just go to the Planned Parenthood websites. This stuff is real.

I can go to any Catholic or Christian website and see another type of agenda too. Doesn’t necessarily mean one is more than the other.

 

[PompousMaximus]

I think you are confusing humility with being lax. You simply cannot take small quotes from the bible or from popes and create a type of false theology.

The Church does not teach homosexual acts are licit.

But see this is where we differ, your obedience is to the Church founded by Christ, not Christ himself. There is no false theology, just different from yours. And yours you claim has Church given authority. I would consider that an arrogant point of view. How are we to dwell in peace with others if one of us always has to be right?

and how can Catholics proclaim that the Church founded by Christ is the one that exists today,( that is not 2000 years old and I can’t stand it when people say that… we are at least two decades away) that is also arrogant. I equate that to middle schoolers who come into my classroom and tell me I am wrong about what I teach because their parents told me so. Saying you are right without question is what leads to holocausts, you can compare religion with nationality when you speak of Truth without doubt. This country is better than yours, My God is bigger and stronger than yours, my moral code is much higher than yours you suck. It is social darwinism at its worst. Next we will be having sympathy for our little brown brother. Just cut it out.

 

[fix]

But see this is where we differ, your obedience is to the Church founded by Christ, not Christ himself. There is no false theology, just different from yours. And yours you claim has Church given authority. I would consider that an arrogant point of view. How are we to dwell in peace with others if one of us always has to be right?

I am sorry but this is a strange way to lead a moral life. Can you imagine saying genocide is wrong, but it may be right sometimes so I better not state the truth so that we may live in a false peace.

and how can Catholics proclaim that the Church founded by Christ is the one that exists today,( that is not 2000 years old and I can’t stand it when people say that… we are at least two decades away) that is also arrogant. I equate that to middle schoolers who come into my classroom and tell me I am wrong about what I teach because their parents told me so. Saying you are right without question is what leads to holocausts, you can compare religion with nationality when you speak of Truth without doubt. This country is better than yours, My God is bigger and stronger than yours, my moral code is much higher than yours you suck. It is social darwinism at its worst. Next we will be having sympathy for our little brown brother. Just cut it out.

I keep my responses short and clear if possible. I have not said you lack humility, or that you are arrogant, or anything of the sort. Frankly, I suggest that you may be guilty of what you accuse others of. In any even that is not the topic of this thread. My point was to show that preaching moral relativism is not consistent with Catholic teaching or helpful in any way at all.

Good day.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Great post, fix. (#263)
Echoes my own sentiments exactly (in terms of speaking the truth, without apology), and probably echoes the sentiments of many other believers as well. (Not just of Catholicism)

 

[JonathanTrejo]

I’m a gay American, I pay my taxes just like everyone else. I go to school, and work like everyone else, AND I’m Catholic. I find is so demoralizing that all you other Catholics can say that homosexuals want their sins to be accepted, and that they’re wicked. We know that what we do is a sin and we struggle with it everyday but who are you to judge? “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” and there isnt anything that you all do that isnt sin. I know that i live a life of sin but that is something between God and me not up for interpretation to anyone else. All that gays and lesbians ask for as baptized confirmed catholics is to be able to have the same rights as couples who are married. How would you feel if someone said that your marriage doesnt count in the United States because you were catholic. would you fight to have your rights? how would you feel to have someone take something away from you that means more than just a piece of paper but a union in the eyes of God? I’m sure that your position on the matter would be exactly the same as gay and lesbian couples who are simply trying to unite one another in the name of their Lord. please dont bash me or condemn me for I will be judge by someone far more worthy to judge me than any of you who reply.

 

[fix]

Great post, fix. (#263)
Echoes my own sentiments exactly (in terms of speaking the truth, without apology), and probably echoes the sentiments of many other believers as well. (Not just of Catholicism)

Thanks. That is quite a compliment coming from someone who writes so well and expresses herself so clearly.

I am not looking to fight people. I simply try and point out the opposing argument.

I wish people would just address the positions.

 

[PompousMaximus]

I am sorry but this is a strange way to lead a moral life. Can you imagine saying genocide is wrong, but it may be right sometimes so I better not state the truth so that we may live in a false peace.

I don’t understand? Could you clarify?

I keep my responses short and clear if possible. I have not said you lack humility, or that you are arrogant, or anything of the sort. Frankly, I suggest that you may be guilty of what you accuse others of. In any even that is not the topic of this thread. My point was to show that preaching moral relativism is not consistent with Catholic teaching or helpful in any way at all.

Good day.

You are completely right, I do get out of hand sometimes. But typing back and forth as we do we try to claim the other person is incorrect. It is not going to end. Until Jesus comes back and sets everything straight. I am sorry for calling it arrogance it just seems that we as humans seem to know and be convicted in our thoughts, and all must agree.

It is the same thing i am accusing you of, so please accept my apology.

 

[sw85]

I’m a gay American, I pay my taxes just like everyone else. I go to school, and work like everyone else, AND I’m Catholic. I find is so demoralizing that all you other Catholics can say that homosexuals want their sins to be accepted, and that they’re wicked. We know that what we do is a sin and we struggle with it everyday but who are you to judge? “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” and there isnt anything that you all do that isnt sin. I know that i live a life of sin but that is something between God and me not up for interpretation to anyone else. All that gays and lesbians ask for as baptized confirmed catholics is to be able to have the same rights as couples who are married. How would you feel if someone said that your marriage doesnt count in the United States because you were catholic. would you fight to have your rights? how would you feel to have someone take something away from you that means more than just a piece of paper but a union in the eyes of God? I’m sure that your position on the matter would be exactly the same as gay and lesbian couples who are simply trying to unite one another in the name of their Lord. please dont bash me or condemn me for I will be judge by someone far more worthy to judge me than any of you who reply.

You don’t understand. First of all, pointing out that homosexuality is a sin is hardly “judging” anyone even by the loose standards for what constitutes “judgment” in the modern age. We are called by the duty of charity to chastise sinners. Christ Himself did this and commanded us to do likewise.

Second, your sexual arrangements are not “marriages.” Hence there are no rights being denied you. Marriage arises from human nature, specifically from the sexual complementarity of man and woman – there is no such complementarity between man and man or woman and woman and hence nothing to recognize as “marriage” in the first place. So if the state said Catholics could not marry, I would object, and for the reason that Catholicism has no bearing on one’s ability to discharge the duties attendant on their natures. By contrast, having sex exclusively with people of the same sex DOES have a bearing on that ability. This is why homosexuals are called to live lives of celibacy.

In other words, it would actually be unjust if Catholics were denied the right to marry. There is no injustice in denying homosexuals that “right” because there is no such thing as gay “marriage” and therefore no “right” to it. Justice means giving to people what is due to them.

If you want to follow the will of the Lord, as you say you do, you will follow His will, expressed over and over and over again throughout the ages, and remain celibate.

 

[Weareyoung]

But in you accepting it do you think you are going to be condemned by God?

I would argue that two consenting adults wanting to adopt is a far better option than letting that child rot away somewhere in foster care, love is love. and that has nothing to do with whether or not they are practicing homosexuality. That would be an example that values family just as much we heterosexual Christian married couples do.

But it is civil in a civil country. Our founders had a simple idea that is very hard to maintain. But it works great with Christianity. Liberty, thats it. You can use the words of the bible to justify anything you want, especially directly before the civil war when this countries southern states justified slavery where as the northern states used the same book to justify the opposite ideal.

Its dangerous to use God’s word to inspire anything but love.

Agenda degrades what they fight for. Using that term agenda devalues them as humans. They cease to have feeling, they cease to have an actual human presence.

The social affects of heterosexuals having sex willy nilly does the same thing that homosexual willy nilly sex has. If the couple is committed then it should be left alone.

I made my point earlier. Christ should liberate us of sin, not live in fear of what it does to us and does to others.

I can go to any Catholic or Christian website and see another type of agenda too. Doesn’t necessarily mean one is more than the other.

In accepting what will I be condemned by God? Same-sex “marriage”? If I am forced to accept it, absolutely not!

I now know that you don’t believe that sex and marriage are meant to be between a man and a woman, but I’m still a little confused about your beliefs. So my questions are: Do you believe anything can affect people in negative ways? If so what? An extreme example would be murder. But if I want to take someone and attack them verbally and hurt them when they did nothing to me, is there anything wrong with that? What about sleeping around? Getting into bed with a bunch of people for personal selfish reasons to influence them or because you want pleasure or for whatever reason. Is there ever such as a thing as an unethical decision according to you?

I’m Catholic (on a Catholic website actually) so I don’t know what direction you’re coming from. I’m not sure if I know what your religion is, so I think it would be a bad idea for me to discuss theological subjects to you. And I think our beliefs might be incompatible. One thing I know is that when I asked my history professor this semester: “Did the Cathars believe that Jesus was divine?” He said: “No. Neither Arianism or Catharism believed in the divinity of Jesus.” I think you might still believe that Jesus is Divine, but that’s just what I know from memory about Catharism from my history class, unless my professor was wrong.

So you believe same-sex “marriage” is a Civil right. Please answer the following question. Does this mean you believe that Churches or other private institutions that have any kind of objection should be forced to sanction it?

You say God “should liberate us from sin. Not live in fear of what it does to us and does to others.” But, is that the best way to live in gratitude for what He did for us if you repeatedly sin? Sin does offend God and sometimes other people. Every time someone sins, punishment must be paid which is death. Why it is completely fine to drive nails into the hands of Christ but it’s never okay (for some people) if it were their own hands? In my opinion, Jesus paid for every sin and every time you sin you add more suffering to him. Redemption is a cooperative effort. You cannot be saved if you are not willing to cooperate with God to be saved.

Wouldn’t it be nice if the other side of your argument was always indifferent?

Also when you say Christ should “liberate us from sin”, does this mean you are admitting homosexuality is a sin? Because you talk about Christ liberating us from sin, referring to the part where I was asking about “homosexual actions.” Is your opinion that homosexual actions are not sins? Is it that it is a sin but we should not worry about the negative consequences of the sin? Or is it something else? And part of my argument was a social argument that has nothing to do with religion. It seems like in other places you are trying to say that homosexual actions are not a sin, but here it’s almost like you’re admitting it’s a sin. Can any consensual sexual actions be considered sins by Christians? Can these actions ever have real negative effects on people?

To say that a “marriage” between two men or two women is equal to the marriage between a man and a woman which can create new life would be a big mistake. They are not the same and that is why I dislike the phrase “marriage equality.”

 

[sw85]

But see this is where we differ, your obedience is to the Church founded by Christ, not Christ himself. There is no false theology, just different from yours. And yours you claim has Church given authority. I would consider that an arrogant point of view. How are we to dwell in peace with others if one of us always has to be right?

and how can Catholics proclaim that the Church founded by Christ is the one that exists today,( that is not 2000 years old and I can’t stand it when people say that… we are at least two decades away) that is also arrogant. I equate that to middle schoolers who come into my classroom and tell me I am wrong about what I teach because their parents told me so. Saying you are right without question is what leads to holocausts, you can compare religion with nationality when you speak of Truth without doubt. This country is better than yours, My God is bigger and stronger than yours, my moral code is much higher than yours you suck. It is social darwinism at its worst. Next we will be having sympathy for our little brown brother. Just cut it out.

First, you’re really going to complain that people round to the nearest century?

Second, if you think it is impossible that objective truth is impossible to come by, that’s your problem. I see no reason any of us should be expected to believe it. Especially when it’s atheists, who are supposed to be epistemically humble, who keep launching pogroms against us, not vice-versa.

 

[PompousMaximus]

First, you’re really going to complain that people round to the nearest century?

I am when RCIA advertises it is the Way the Truth and Life for 2 thousand years.

It is misleading.

 

[sw85]

I am when RCIA advertises it is the Way the Truth and Life for 2 thousand years.

It is misleading.

Silliness. A local radio station bills itself as “___ 100,” even though the frequency is actually 99.9. How misleading is this?

What kind of hopeless pedant gets up-in-arms because someone rounds up to 2,000 instead of saying 1,979? Because his autistic mind cannot apprehend the unspoken “nearly”?

 

[PompousMaximus]

Silliness. A local radio station bills itself as “___ 100,” even though the frequency is actually 99.9. How misleading is this?

What kind of hopeless pedant gets up-in-arms because someone rounds up to 2,000 instead of saying 1,979? Because his autistic mind cannot apprehend the unspoken “nearly”?

Dang dude. harshin’ my autistic mell. by the way that is pretty insensitive.

and they don’t say nearly 2000 yeas they say for 2000 years that is a big difference.

 

[sw85]

Dang dude. harshin’ my autistic mell. by the way that is pretty insensitive.

and they don’t say nearly 2000 yeas they say for 2000 years that is a big difference.

My radio station doesn’t say “____ nearly-100,” it says “____ 100.” Misleading or no? Want to send them an angry letter and demand that they stop misrepresenting themselves to the public?

Quit wasting everyone’s time with such useless pedantry. People round. Get over it.