What is it that homosexuals really want?

[Wellok]

What he said.

Plus…

Why do you think the ‘religion’ option is there in the first place?

It’s so people, who have the courage to do so, can let us know where it is their thinking comes from. As Deus_lo_vult so aptly pointed out, most CAF members don’t have any qualms in stating their positions, even some hardcore atheists. If you didn’t look through some threads before posting here and so you failed to notice all the various religious identifiers people use, it just proves you jumped in here with some insults before you put your thinking cap on.

Of course, if you wish to make posts that are at odds with Catholic beliefs, then ommitting ‘Catholic’ as an indentifier gets you off the hook as a heretic, doesn’t it? It means you can say whatever you like and you can’t be accused of slighting not onlu your own Church, but your Catolic bretheren. Does it not?

Then, conversely, it also means if you actually should choose to advocate Catholic thinking, the non-Catholics will not come down on you for sprouting what some of them like to label as fairy tales.

Either way, having stated you have always been Catholic, the leaving that Catholic identifier off your profile reeks of simple cowardice.

Again, I ask, why is it that you feel your Catholic identifier is redundant, unless you deliberately wish it to be.

I also would like to know how it is that asking questions or answering insults can be construed as ‘bullying’. Please, do explain. I wait with bated breath…

I haven’t said anything heretical.

I find you small minded and a bully. I identified you right away. I’m sorry that is the path you’ve chosen.

The CELIBATE young man was being bullied at his church and you just piled on. It’s a shame. If he wants to express himself though his clothing so be it. Clothes don’t make you gay.

If he is not engaging in homosexual sex, he’s not doing anything wrong. If we want other homosexuals to feel comfortable in seeking Christ we have to be clear what the sin is. Homosexual acts, not fashion. We are all children of God. Some kids show up looking like wanna be rock stars. I rather they are there than not. Again it’s not a sin. I don’t choose to wear it but if they are ok with it, I can be too. We are all seeking Christ.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

I haven’t said anything heretical.

I find you small minded and a bully. I identified you right away. I’m sorry that is the path you’ve chosen.

The CELIBATE young man was being bullied at his church and you just piled on. It’s a shame. If he wants to express himself though his clothing so be it. Clothes don’t make you gay.

If he is not engaging in homosexual sex, he’s not doing anything wrong. If we want other homosexuals to feel comfortable in seeking Christ we have to be clear what the sin is. Homosexual acts, not fashion. We are all children of God. Some kids show up looking like wanna be rock stars. I rather they are there than not. Again it’s not a sin. I don’t choose to wear it but if they are ok with it, I can be too. We are all seeking Christ.

Giving scandal, whether intentional or not, is a sin. Read your Catechism of the Catholic Church on scandal:

II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

[2284](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2284.htm’) Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90

I fail to see how distracting people during the Mass is perfectly acceptable behavior.

You ADMITTED that “looking like wanna be rock stars” is not a good thing. You admitted that such is an act of tolerance, and you can only “tolerate” something that is admittedly not preferrable. No one ever ‘tolerates’ good behavior, because the meaning of the word tolerance does not apply to things that are objectively good.

How is dressing in neutral clothing that doesn’t distract people a bad thing? I actually think it is quite courteous when people dress appropriately for certain occasions/settings? How would you argue that it is a bad thing?

 

[Wellok]

Giving scandal, whether intentional or not, is a sin. Read your Catechism of the Catholic Church on scandal:

I fail to see how distracting people during the Mass is perfectly acceptable behavior.

You ADMITTED that “looking like wanna be rock stars” is not a good thing. You admitted that such is an act of tolerance, and you can only “tolerate” something that is admittedly not preferrable. No one ever ‘tolerates’ good behavior, because the meaning of the word tolerance does not apply to things that are objectively good.

How is dressing in neutral clothing that doesn’t distract people a bad thing? I actually think it is quite courteous when people dress appropriately for certain occasions/settings? How would you argue that it is a bad thing?

No, I didn’t. I said if they are ok with it so can I. That’s not tolerating its acceptance.

You seem to not have moved passed parochial school. Until mandatory uniforms are part of the celebration of the Mass I guess you’re out if luck.

 

[John21652]

I haven’t said anything heretical.

I never said you did. I specifically wrote *"…**.if *you wish to make posts that are at odds with Catholic beliefs…" Notice the word “if”, used as a hypothetical qualifier? Again, you are not reading properly.

I find you small minded and a bully. I identified you right away. I’m sorry that is the path you’ve chosen.

Around a half dozen other posters said you are wrong. Considering how we can see you don’t read properly, your judgements are bound to be suspect.

I noticed that you said you wont be bullied into putting the identifier ‘Catholic’ next to your name. Do we infer from that that others have been bullied into using it? That’s ludicrous. Tell me, do you by any chance have a contrary nature and do the opposite of what others do just to jack up your own ego?

How would you feel if CAF made it compulsory? Quite a few feel it should be, for the reasons I have already given and which you have failed to address, except by hurling insults.

The CELIBATE young man was being bullied at his church and you just piled on.

Again, more proof you don’t read properly. Show me where I “piled it on”, if you can. I have already pointed out he identified the problem himself. You have neglected to admit this, let alone address it.

It’s a shame. If he wants to express himself though his clothing so be it.

Other posters have already pointed out how the way we dress has an impact on how and what people think of others in various contexts. You have failed to address this also.

Clothes don’t make you gay.

Nonsense statement. No-one said they did. However, do you deny that the way we dress sends out certain signals for others to interpret?

If he is not engaging in homosexual sex, he’s not doing anything wrong.

I stated that in my response to him. Did you miss that too?

If we want other homosexuals to feel comfortable in seeking Christ we have to be clear what the sin is. Homosexual acts, not fashion.

Did anyone here say otherwise? If so, please point it out to us.

We are all children of God. Some kids show up looking like wanna be rock stars. I rather they are there than not. Again it’s not a sin. I don’t choose to wear it but if they are ok with it, I can be too. We are all seeking Christ.

Easy for you to say. It wasn’t you having the insults hurled at you and it wasn’t you having your feelings hurt. You are being counterproductive.

You have a lot to work on. Get cracking.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

No, I didn’t. I said if they are ok with it so can I. That’s not tolerating its acceptance.

You seem to not have moved passed parochial school. Until mandatory uniforms are part of the celebration of the Mass I guess you’re out if luck.

I just told you that scandal is a sin, and I quoted the Catechism. How do you deny that scandal is a sin?

Do you wear a bathingsuit when you go to funerals, or do you dress respectfully? Answer the question honestly.

 

[Wellok]

It is only scandalous if you are making a big deal about it and it’s his intention. If you accept him as different but part of the community of Christ it’s not a big deal.

Yes I have attended a funeral and a wedding in a bathing suit. I live in a beach community part of the year.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

It is only scandalous if you are making a big deal about it and it’s his intention. If you accept him as different but part of the community of Christ it’s not a big deal.

Yes I have attended a funeral and a wedding in a bathing suit. I live in a beach community part of the year.

And what part of the Catechism are you quoting when you say that?

Ok, if you want to play this game of endless examples, have you attended Mass dressed like a woman? How about a stripper? The point I’m getting at is that you will not be able to deny that certain fashions are inappropriate in certain contexts. I don’t think you’ll be wearing as*less chaps when you say your goodbyes to your parents, or that you did, if this has already happened, God rest their souls.

 

[Wellok]

And what part of the Catechism are you quoting when you say that?

Ok, if you want to play this game of endless examples, have you attended Mass dressed like a woman? How about a stripper? The point I’m getting at is that you will not be able to deny that certain fashions are inappropriate in certain contexts. I don’t think you’ll be wearing as*less chaps when you say your goodbyes to your parents, or that you did, if this has already happened, God rest their souls.

He’s not going to Mass in drag. Get a life.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

He’s not going to Mass in drag. Get a life.

This is my life friend, it’s called theology. Why don’t you join me in a THEOLOGICAL discussion?

So, good, we have established that certain forms of dress are either appropriate or inappropriate according to context. I’m glad I could elicit a subtle concession from you on that point.

mitex admitted that the clothing he wore at Mass was problematic, and he resolved to change his appearance.

It is only scandalous if you are making a big deal about it and it’s his intention. If you accept him as different but part of the community of Christ it’s not a big deal.

**Secondly, the question still stands: where in the Catechism does it say that scandal is only scandal depending on the intention of the person giving scandal? **

I quoted a section for you that explicitly states that scandal does not depend on the intention of the person giving the scandal.

 

[Wellok]

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

I get it!!!

You are afraid of committing a homosexual act, if you see a man that you find a attractive.

Sorry I didn’t know that you had same sex attractions. Forgive me for not seeing it sooner. I am sympathetic to his cross. I didn’t know you bear the same one.

 

[michelleds]

I get it!!!

You are afraid of committing a homosexual act, if you see a man that you find a attractive.

Sorry I didn’t know that you had same sex attractions. Forgive me for not seeing it sooner. I am sympathetic to his cross. I didn’t know you bear the same one.

speaking of not getting out of grade school.

to John and Deus, no sense in having a battle of wits with an opponent only half-armed.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

I get it!!!

You are afraid of committing a homosexual act, if you see a man that you find a attractive.

Sorry I didn’t know that you had same sex attractions. Forgive me for not seeing it sooner. I am sympathetic to his cross. I didn’t know you bear the same one.

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or **to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult **and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. **“Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!”**90

You accuse me of homosexual attraction and you have the nerve to call John a bully?

 

[iloveangels]

You accuse me of homosexual attraction and you have the nerve to call John a bully?

Wow, what a mess this thread is. Going to mass in drag. Hmmm. Some of y’all need help.

BTW, the designation in the upper right hand corner of the post is self-chosen, so probably not always correct. And CAF occasionally requests that it be removed for obvious reasons. You can’t assume anything, it appears.

 

[Wellok]

You accuse me of homosexual attraction and you have the nerve to call John a bully?

The sin of scandal

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

Is predicated on causing another to sin. If his manner of dress causes you to sin, then Yes, I see why you have a problem. I live in an area that there are a large population of gays. I’m not tempted. That’s why I didn’t understand why you were so upset about it.

If you struggle with same sex desire, then perhaps seeing a dapper man might cause you to lust after him or act on that lust. Then he would be guilty of scandal.

But just as seeing a kid dressed as a rock star does make me want to be a rock star, seeing a man in fashion that is “gay” doesn’t make me want to be gay, so it’s not scandalous toward me.

I wish you best in your struggle. Peace be with you brother.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

The sin of scandal

Is predicated on causing another to sin. If his manner of dress causes you to sin, then Yes, I see why you have a problem. I live in an area that there are a large population of gays. I’m not tempted. That’s why I didn’t understand why you were so upset about it.

If you struggle with same sex desire, then perhaps seeing a dapper man might cause you to lust after him or act on that lust. Then he would be guilty of scandal.

But just as seeing a kid dressed as a rock star does make me want to be a rock star, seeing a man in fashion that is “gay” doesn’t make me want to be gay, so it’s not scandalous toward me.

I wish you best in your struggle. Peace be with you brother.

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil.

Taking someone’s mind off God during the Mass is wrong, especially when you could have eliminated the distraction by dressing more conservatively. It doesn’t matter WHY the person is distracted during Mass, only that he IS distracted, and that a person CAUSED him to be distracted.

A woman still commits scandal by wearing a miniskirt during the Mass and causing heterosexual women to be distracted by her appearance.

 

[Wellok]

Taking someone’s mind off God during the Mass is wrong, especially when you could have eliminated the distraction by dressing more conservatively. It doesn’t matter WHY the person is distracted during Mass, only that he IS distracted, and that a person CAUSED him to be distracted.

A woman still commits scandal by wearing a miniskirt during the Mass and causing heterosexual women to be distracted by her appearance.

It’s not causing them to do evil. I don’t think alcohol should be banned from the Mass because there are alcoholics attending.

Dude, what ever your struggle may be I wish you luck. Truly.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

It’s not causing them to do evil. I don’t think alcohol should be banned from the Mass because there are alcoholics attending.

Dude, what ever your struggle may be I wish you luck. Truly.

Actually, alcoholics who have not publicly repudiated their alcoholism and/or sought treatement are committing scandal; not just during Mass but wherever they go.

Setting off a firecracker in Church is a form of scandal (among other sins). It’s an entirely non-sexual form of scandal. It’s scandal because it causes a distraction during the Mass, and it makes it difficult for Christians to be holy and keep God’s commandments, and that’s wrong.

Chewing gum or wearing a bright, glittery, reflective jacket during Mass are also non-sexual forms of scandal.

 

[iloveangels]

Actually, alcoholics who have not publicly repudiated their alcoholism and/or sought treatement are committing scandal; not just during Mass but wherever they go.

Setting off a firecracker in Church is a form of scandal (among other sins). It’s an entirely non-sexual form of scandal. It’s scandal because it causes a distraction during the Mass, and it makes it difficult for Christians to be holy and keep God’s commandments, and that’s wrong.

Chewing gum or wearing a bright, glittery, reflective jacket during Mass are also non-sexual forms of scandal.

Wow, I’m glad I go to a different parish than any of you guys. Firecrackers, running around in drag. Are you in San Francisco?

 

[Wellok]

Actually, alcoholics who have not publicly repudiated their alcoholism and/or sought treatement are committing scandal; not just during Mass but wherever they go.

Setting off a firecracker in Church is a form of scandal (among other sins). It’s an entirely non-sexual form of scandal. It’s scandal because it causes a distraction during the Mass, and that’s wrong.

Chewing gum or wearing a bright, glittery, reflective jacket during Mass are also non-sexual forms of scandal.

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

Until you can show me how chewing gum makes another do evil - I think we’re at an impasse.

If being distracted at Mass is doing evil entire congregations should be barred from Mass. Not to mention the children

 

[iloveangels]

Until you can show me how chewing gum makes another do evil - I think we’re at an impasse.

If being distracted at Mass is doing evil entire congregations should be barred from Mass. Not to mention the children

Oooh, the slippery slope argument. What are you trying to squeeze in here, Wellok?