What is it with Protestants?

[E.E.N.S]

I want to appologize…it is about faith and not fact (though certain things are fact)…but I hope you understand what my point was…

And as for you, Shibboleth, you are right that the body of believers is the body of the Church…but what does it mean to believe? and to believe in what exactly? (the truth is what we are called to believe, and the truth is what is at stake here…) If I say I believe in Jesus, but do not follow his law - then it is of no avail - for faith without works is dead! We need the truth! Without it, what are we ‘believing?!’

 

[Annunciata]

E.E.N.S.:

I am a convert to Catholicism…I was a very passionate Protestant at one time, but I was always praying that I come to do God’s will and not my own, in the Fullness of His Truth and not my own…and when studying both side of the fence (anti-Catholic and things from 'the horse’s mouth/Catholic)…It is FACT not interpretation of the defining events in history! (Does anyone think it is not a fact that Martin Luther protested the Church when he nail the 95 Thesis to the door? No…same as for the rest.)
Please do not use your lack of understanding/knowledge as ‘fact’
when that is simply not the case.

Thank you for reading my ramblings,
God bless.

EENS & Goodme,
Excellent posts! all of it! Just wanted to exhort the both of you in your “passion” for the Faith.
In His Love, Annunciata

 

[E.E.N.S]

Thank you, and thank God for our passion and that our faith is His Truth which is Holy Mother Church the Bride of Christ!

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

(Sorry for the poor grammer and spelling that I sometimes use…I am at work and keep looking over my shoulder - if you know what I mean)

 

[Shibboleth]

E.E.N.S.:

I want to appologize…it is about faith and not fact (though certain things are fact)…but I hope you understand what my point was…

And as for you, Shibboleth, you are right that the body of believers is the body of the Church…but what does it mean to believe? and to believe in what exactly? (the truth is what we are called to believe, and the truth is what is at stake here…) If I say I believe in Jesus, but do not follow his law - then it is of no avail - for faith without works is dead! We need the truth! Without it, what are we ‘believing?!’

Lutherans believe that a follower of Christ will inevitably bear good fruit (works); however, we also know that because of our fallen nature we will also sin. Where we disagree somewhat is that one need not do any form of (work) to absolve those sins other than to have faith in Jesus and his absolute sacrifice for our sins.

If I commit murder that does not automatically cause me to loose my salvation nor do I have to do any sort of “work” to amend for that bad behavior. A person that murders someone may not have rejected God’s grace but simply sinned. Since that person has not rejected God’s grace they will still have the gift of Faith in Jesus and what he accomplished.

Now if someone has murdered and does not feel guilt or does not have the want to make amends then there is a very good chance that that person has rejected God.

Works are an external manifestation of God’s grace so if that external manifestation does not exist one needs to ask themselves why.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Shibboleth:

Lutherans believe that a follower of Christ will inevitably bear good fruit (works); however, we also know that because of our fallen nature we will also sin. Where we disagree somewhat is that one need not do any form of (work) to absolve those sins other than to have faith in Jesus and his absolute sacrifice for our sins.

If I commit murder that does not automatically cause me to loose my salvation nor do I have to do any sort of “work” to amend for that bad behavior. A person that murders someone may not have rejected God’s grace but simply sinned. Since that person has not rejected God’s grace they will still have the gift of Faith in Jesus and what he accomplished.

Now if someone has murdered and does not feel guilt or does not have the want to make amends then there is a very good chance that that person has rejected God.

Works are an external manifestation of God’s grace so if that external manifestation does not exist one needs to ask themselves why.

 

[E.E.N.S]

(Oops…what happened here?!)

Anyway…Catholics do not teach that “works” save you, but it is by Grace. However, the bible says “faith without works is dead,” so who do we go to for help in understanding what this means? (Since no one seems to agree - and we are talking about the result being either eternal life (with God) or eternal death (total seperation from God).

 

[Annunciata]

MariaG:

Yep. I have not meet a person who attends church regularly who used to be Catholic who understands Catholic teaching. The “reasons” they left do not exist in the Real Teachings of the Catholic Church. They do not neccessarily have a hatred for the Church, but they have a great fear and loathing for what they think the church teaches.

But deep down in my heart there is nothing I like better than the worship songs and upbeat worship music of an Assembly of God on fire for God. Oh wait, there is something better, the Eucharist, that brought me home. But my heart does yearn for a nice Charismatic Catholic Church at times.

Maria,
I have to agree with you on both paragraphs. As for the worship music from my Baptist days, “The Old Rugged Cross” and “Trust and Obey” are reoccurring songs that resound in my “heart” from time to time. In Christ, Annunciata

 

[p90]

E.E.N.S.:

This is why I said that you do NOT know history, because the “body of believers” at Pentecost were Catholic (maybe not yet in name, although Catholic means ‘universal,’ but in beliefs they were 100% Catholic!

They were not members of your denomination. A gratuitous assertion merits a gratuitous response.

~Matt

 

[GoodME]

Shibboleth:

Where we disagree somewhat is that one need not do any form of (work) to absolve those sins other than to have faith in Jesus and his absolute sacrifice for our sins.

If I commit murder that does not automatically cause me to loose my salvation nor do I have to do any sort of “work” to amend for that bad behavior. A person that murders someone may not have rejected God’s grace but simply sinned. Since that person has not rejected God’s grace they will still have the gift of Faith in Jesus and what he accomplished.

Lets say I steal your car.

The sin of that act is depriving of you what is rightly yours; it is the creation of injustice.

So, I feel guilt and shame over this act, and I seek forgiveness. I vow repentence - I know stealing the car is bad, and I feel just awful about it. So, you are saying that my guilt and remorse are indicative of my “Faith”, and therefore, I am forgiven, because Jesus died so that sins like stealing cars may be forgiven? And you would forgive me also?

Do I have that right?

 

[GoodME]

GoodME:

Lets say I steal your car…And you would forgive me also?

Do I have that right?

Dude, I still have your car.

So, is returning the car a “work”? Does returning the car “complete the atonement of Christ”?

What you described completely ignores the temporal effects of sin. I find that view frequently held in non-Catholic Faith practices.

The result of this is to deny accountability for our actions and the need to set our matters straight and deal with the temporal effects of sin.

Thus, one can sin, be “forgiven” and still believe they can “keep the car”, because Jesus died for that sin. That is not right. We recognize it, but some non-Catholics have trouble explaining it within the belief you described. Still some others ignore it all together and “keep the car”.

Yet another reason to subordinate personal intepretations to the wisdom and teachings of a Church, that has been dealing with this stuff for 1,600+ years or more.

 

[Shibboleth]

GoodME:

Lets say I steal your car.

The sin of that act is depriving of you what is rightly yours; it is the creation of injustice.

So, I feel guilt and shame over this act, and I seek forgiveness. I vow repentence - I know stealing the car is bad, and I feel just awful about it. So, you are saying that my guilt and remorse are indicative of my “Faith”, and therefore, I am forgiven, because Jesus died so that sins like stealing cars may be forgiven? And you would forgive me also?

Do I have that right?

I am not sure what you are trying to ask. My guess is that it is in reference to something of a Catholic practice or belief that I am not aware of…

Would the act of steeling the car in any way keep one from salvation? No… we do not loose God’s Grace through bad behavior. Is bad behavior an outward expression of one who has rejected God – sometimes but not always.

As far as forgiveness –

Matthew 6:14), “If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

In view of Scripture’s wider teaching concerning forgiveness, it seems proper to understand Jesus’ point in Matthew 6:14 to be that the stubborn, persistent refusal to forgive others is evidence of a blinded and hardened heart which lacks a real understanding of and faith in God’s forgiveness in Christ. What Jesus is doing here, therefore, is issuing a strong warning to us to “search our hearts” to see if we really understand and accept the Gospel and its practical implications for our lives. If we say, “I want God to forgive me, but I refuse to forgive those who sin against me,” we really don’t know what “forgiveness” and “faith in Jesus” are all about. We cannot expect God to “forgive” us if the attitude of our heart reveals that we have no real understanding of or faith in his undeserved grace in Christ Jesus. Anyone who truly understands the true nature God’s grace and forgiveness in Christ and puts his or her trust in that forgiveness will desire and seek to extend that forgiveness to others. God’s forgiveness is not a “reward” for our forgiving others, but once we receive it in true faith and gratitude it is impossible not to want to share it with others.