What is it with Protestants?

[Tom_of_Assisi]

Ric:

None of the above!

I reject the Roman Catholic church for her unbiblical teachings (we winn not get in to that here). I almost joined the Roman Catholic church after I was married in the Roman Catholic church (long story).

I will never “break down a door to any Roman Catholic church” for the fact that I do know the Roman Catholic church and her teachings!

Questions for Ric:

Your denomenation is completely Biblical? Wow–I would like to see one of the “services.” Do they, as St. Paul did in his letters, only refer to the “Old Testament” as scriptural?

How many people worship with you in your denomenation/sect? Is it composed of Americans only–or is it worldwide?

Is your own interpretation of the Bible your only authority or do you occasionally yield to the opinions of your pastor? What if another member of your sect differs with you on what is Biblical?

Thanks for your time–I always enjoyed reading your posts back in June–I’m glad you’re back.

 

[arso347]

ahimsaman72:

I think what the poster was saying was that the many obvious differences in worship, architecture, etc. are a little overwhelming. I went to my first mass last Sunday and was amazed at the differences. From the holy water at the entrance, genuflecting, kneeling, etc. I was in a totally different world. I came from a Southern Baptist background, so there were some major differences.

Besides, I think alot of people just don’t want to change. They’re accustomed to their present surroundings and there’s nothing to compel them to change.

My 2 cents.

This is exactly what I was trying to say. I also came from a Southern Baptist Background, and coverted Easter 2001. The difference in practice, from the rosary, to chaplets, to eucharistic adoration, are all things the typical convert (from evangelical circles anyway) have never been exposed to before. Again, it’s a stumbling block, because it is so extremely different from anything they have called Christian before.

Although, as a counter point, the stark difference is also amazingly appealing, if your heart is open to it. The thing I remember most from my first Mass was the amazing sense of reverence and personal prayer prior to Mass. There was no social event about to start. Rather, it was obvious the people were preparing for a genuine encounter with God.

 

[Redeemerslove]

II Paradox II:

You may also want to consider the possibility that some of us simply disagree with what the church teaches.

ken

Can we include you disagreeing with what Christ teaches as well? Protestants don’e seem to understand this basic fact - Christ IS the Church. You people just don’t seem to get this.

Why do we believe this?

“He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me. And he who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

Christ speaks through his Church, you reject the Church and you reject Christ, plain and simple.

“…what you bound on earth is bound in heaven, and what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:19b)

The Church acts with Christ’s authority, so much so that the acts of the Church on earth, are the acts of Christ in heaven. No separation, no deleniation, that’s just the way it is.

“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…” (Matthew 16:19a)

Who Peter locks out of heaven is locked out, and who he lets into heaven is let in.

A note to be made, is nowhere in these verses does it say that there authority is based on their personal holiness. As reference to their authority, Jesus gives his statements and promises. He does not refer to their personal holiness being a prerequisite to their ministry and many Protestants seem to believe.

In fact he says of the Pharisees, and their authority he says:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. (Matt 23:2-3)

Jesus draws the distinction between obeying others because of the authority that God has invested in their offices, and because of their personal holiness. When it comes to teaching authority, and disciplinary authority, personal holiness is not even considered in this passage as being any kind of litmus test.

Rather, the fact that God has put the scribes and pharisees in this position is what Jesus argument rests upon. How do we know this? Who gave Moses Seat (of judgement) to Moses? It was God:

“Because the people come to me to seek God’s will.Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and laws.” (Exodus 18:15-16)

This is supported by the fact that God sent Moses as to lead his people:

“Now go, lead the people…”(Exodus 32:34)

So, we have the Pharisees sitting on the seat of Moses (a symbol of authority as noted above), and yet Jesus tells the people to obey the Pharisess, despite the fact that Jesus condemned the Pharisees unholy conduct:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?”

Holiness is not the standard of discerning power of leadership, rather the promise of Christ is; independent on any holiness or unholiness in the individual who holds the office.

So we are to obey the bishops decrees, whether he is holy, unholy, lukewarm, it simply doesn’t matter. Our faith must be in the promise of Christ, not in the deification of those who hold the office.

 

[arso347]

Great post Redeemers Love! I learned a lot. Thanks for the effort.

 

[Annunciata]

arso347:

Great post Redeemers Love! I learned a lot. Thanks for the effort.

And I echo it! Good job Redeemers Love! God Bless, Annunciata

 

[Shibboleth]

Redeemerslove:

Can we include you disagreeing with what Christ teaches as well? Protestants don’e seem to understand this basic fact - Christ IS the Church. You people just don’t seem to get this.

Why do we believe this?

Christ speaks through his Church, you reject the Church and you reject Christ, plain and simple.

The Church acts with Christ’s authority, so much so that the acts of the Church on earth, are the acts of Christ in heaven. No separation, no deleniation, that’s just the way it is.

Who Peter locks out of heaven is locked out, and who he lets into heaven is let in.

A note to be made, is nowhere in these verses does it say that there authority is based on their personal holiness. As reference to their authority, Jesus gives his statements and promises. He does not refer to their personal holiness being a prerequisite to their ministry and many Protestants seem to believe.

In fact he says of the Pharisees, and their authority he says:

Jesus draws the distinction between obeying others because of the authority that God has invested in their offices, and because of their personal holiness. When it comes to teaching authority, and disciplinary authority, personal holiness is not even considered in this passage as being any kind of litmus test.

Rather, the fact that God has put the scribes and pharisees in this position is what Jesus argument rests upon. How do we know this? Who gave Moses Seat (of judgement) to Moses? It was God:

This is supported by the fact that God sent Moses as to lead his people:

So, we have the Pharisees sitting on the seat of Moses (a symbol of authority as noted above), and yet Jesus tells the people to obey the Pharisess, despite the fact that Jesus condemned the Pharisees unholy conduct:

Holiness is not the standard of discerning power of leadership, rather the promise of Christ is; independent on any holiness or unholiness in the individual who holds the office.

So we are to obey the bishops decrees, whether he is holy, unholy, lukewarm, it simply doesn’t matter. Our faith must be in the promise of Christ, not in the deification of those who hold the office.

Perhaps you should quote some Biblical passages on conceit and meekness. Many individuals, not me, are driven away by the pompous attitude of the followers of not just the Catholic Church but Christianity in general.

I work hard to show agnostics the beauty of the Christian faith without coming out guns blaring.

Protestants understand the fact that Christ is the Church we just disagree with what the Church is…
Please do not make blanket statements that are not true. Catholics believe that their church is the one church and I am fine with that - it may be that it is - I do not know.

Do you not think that the Protestant denominations of the world have studied the passages that you quote. That you have all of the sudden unlocked the secrets of showing Protestants the light in these apparently obscure passages? Or perhaps, we know the passages well and disagree on their meaning or how they are applied.

People ask why Protestants do not join the Catholic Church - great it is a good question - a good answer is in the history of why they were driven away in the first place.

 

[II_Paradox_II]

Redeemerslove:

Can we include you disagreeing with what Christ teaches as well? Protestants don’e seem to understand this basic fact - Christ IS the Church. You people just don’t seem to get this.

A few things:

1. I understand that the church is the body of Christ. Where my disagreement lies is with whether the church is also equivalent to the bishops in communion with Roman Pontiff.
2. I’m not sure what the rest of your post has to do with what I said. I have heard Catholic explanations for their beliefs many times and I know them pretty well (and, I might add, I don’t consider them irrational or stupid, just incorrect). My point was just that people were being uncharitable in their speculations about why non-catholics believe as they do.

ken

 

[Redeemerslove]

arso347:

Great post Redeemers Love! I learned a lot. Thanks for the effort.

Sure, thanks for the compliment.

 

[Redeemerslove]

Annunciata:

And I echo it! Good job Redeemers Love! God Bless, Annunciata

Thanks Annunciata.

 

[Redeemerslove]

Shibboleth:

Perhaps you should quote some Biblical passages on conceit and meekness. Many individuals, not me, are driven away by the pompous attitude of the followers of not just the Catholic Church but Christianity in general.

You call it pompous, some call it confidence. If you were rock-solid on your faith on the nature of the Church, and stolid in the fact that you belong to the true Church, then you would be confident as well. Do Protesants have an inferiority complex?

Let me put it this way. Some Protestants call it pompousness to wear fine clothes, and jewelry, yet were fine dresses and jewlery themselves. I would call critical attitude that you can wear jewelry but Bishops’ can’t, hypocrisy.

I work hard to show agnostics the beauty of the Christian faith without coming out guns blaring.

Well, the question was asked, I answered it. If you don’t like methods, then put me on ignore.

Protestants understand the fact that Christ is the Church we just disagree with what the Church is…
Please do not make blanket statements that are not true. Catholics believe that their church is the one church and I am fine with that - it may be that it is - I do not know.

Actually this is being specious. If Christ is the Church, in what way is Christ the Church? Protestants get specious at this point, they say the Church is Christ, but then deny the Church the authority that Christ gave it.

If Christ is the Church, then he is the Church in all ways he describes it. You can’t pick and choose which way you want to think that Christ is the Church, you have to accept all ways.

Do you not think that the Protestant denominations of the world have studied the passages that you quote. That you have all of the sudden unlocked the secrets of showing Protestants the light in these apparently obscure passages? Or perhaps, we know the passages well and disagree on their meaning or how they are applied.

Look at my statements, did I say they didn’t know this? I will quote myself, since many Protestants don’t stick to the text for the most part:

Redeemerslove:

Christ speaks through his Church, you reject the Church and you reject Christ, plain and simple.

As you can see I was talking about rejecting, hence accepting, hence beleiving. You can know everything about a particular passage, and still not accept it.

People ask why Protestants do not join the Catholic Church - great it is a good question - a good answer is in the history of why they were driven away in the first place.

A specious question, in my opinion. I would ask a different question. Why did they abandon Christ?

 

[mark_a]

I think most people stick with what they are born and raised in (protestant or Catholic), but the protestants have a lot more flavors to choose from. I know plenty of protestants that jump around from one denomination to another and it’s no biggie for them to do so.

Most converts to Catholicism are on a mission to find what they want, not to escape what they don’t know or want, as many Catholics who leave the Church are.

 

[E.E.N.S]

II Paradox II:

You may also want to consider the possibility that some of us simply disagree with what the church teaches.

ken

It is okay to not agree on everything unless it keeps you from the fullness of Truth…

And as for you “not agreeing” with the “truth” let’s say, what would happen if you didn’t

Agree with gravity? Would that keep you safe from a fall off a roof?

 

[II_Paradox_II]

E.E.N.S.:

And as for you “not agreeing” with the “truth” let’s say, what would happen if you didn’t Agree with gravity? Would that keep you safe from a fall off a roof?

Of course not, do you think I was making that sort of argument?

ken

 

[E.E.N.S]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shibboleth

Perhaps you should quote some Biblical passages on conceit and meekness. Many individuals, not me, are driven away by the pompous attitude of the followers of not just the Catholic Church but Christianity in general.

You shouldn’t let someone with an “attitude” drive you away from truth…there are sinners in every faith…

…Out of the twelve that Jesus himself chose, ONLY ONE was at the foot of the cross with him! (John, that is…) …and he still chose Peter to be “the Rock” (wait, didn’t Peter deny Jesus 3 times?)

Jesus also told them to obey the Pharisees because they “sit in the seat of Moses” even though they were hypocrites…

Sometimes one doesn’t realize his own pride is what is driving him away from truth…
God bless.

 

[E.E.N.S]

II Paradox II:

Of course not, do you think I was making that sort of argument?

ken

To some degree, yes.

 

[II_Paradox_II]

E.E.N.S.:

To some degree, yes.

I’m not.

ken

 

[Redeemerslove]

mark a:

I think most people stick with what they are born and raised in (protestant or Catholic), but the protestants have a lot more flavors to choose from. I know plenty of protestants that jump around from one denomination to another and it’s no biggie for them to do so.

I agree, I had a friend I knew who was that way, and stated that denominations didn’t matter. But regardless, we are called to follow the truth wherever it leads, even into the Catholic Church.

The Truth is what keeps me in the Church, not cultural and familial loyalty.

Most converts to Catholicism are on a mission to find what they want, not to escape what they don’t know or want, as many Catholics who leave the Church are.

Well I cannot speak for many Catholics. I know as regards those “stress-evangelized” by Fundamnetalists, they tend cave into the ignorance, according to the research of Catholic Pastoral Counselor Phillip St. Romain.

Here’s the point, folks. If you don’t know your Catholic Faith, and the rebuttals to common Fundamentalist Apologetics against Catholicism, then you are in danger. At the very least, people could listen to their Pastor’s side of the argument, before abandoning the Catholic Church. As scripture says:

For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent.(Rom 16:18)

Yes, Catholics can be deceived by fair speech. An honest soul checks his facts before making a choice, and listens to both sides before drawing conclusions. Hence, talk to your Pastor first. Prudence demands it.

 

[Redeemerslove]

II Paradox II:

My point was just that people were being uncharitable in their speculations about why non-catholics believe as they do. -ken

I think there may have been some lack of charity in some peoples speculation, but we have to be careful about what we define as lack of charity.

There are three basic reasons about why non-Catholics don’t believe, according to Catholic doctrine:

1. 
   *]Ignorance, whether culpable (blameful), or invincible (not blameable).
   *]Scientific reasons (psychological, social, medical, etc.).
   *]Sin in general. Choosing not to become Catholic is a rejection of the Church and hence a sin.
   
   These reasons being said, it must also be said, and as The Catholic Catechism of The Catholic Church says:
   

   The first step, therefore, in the normal process of conversion is the investigation and examination of the credentials of the Church, which often is a painful labor lasting for years. newadvent.org/cathen/04347a.htm

   And another point is:
   

   1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.(Catechism of the Catholic Church)

   Since conversion is an interior process, it takes alot of time. Since it involves: reading, studying, conversations, processing information, trying to grasp concepts, finding source material, checking facts, etc. This process is laborious. So any Catholics wanting instant conversions on this website, better learn some patience if they want to see any fruit from that.
   
   This being said. Stating facts is not lack of charity. Jesus himself called people: “fools,” “hypocrites,” “liars,” “vipers,” “white-washed sepulchres” and so on. We need to define charity as God defines it, not make up our own definitions along the way.
   
   And the best description of charity we can find is, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, IMO:
   

   1829 The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.108

   As an afterthought, keep in mind that many people read these boards. And while it may seem to the person I am addressing, that I may be demeaning their knowledge - the person I address should realize that my posts are not written for him or her alone.
   
   The entire audience of my posts goes way beyond the posters on this board, or the people I address. Secondly, I try not to assume anyone’s base knowledge.

 

[II_Paradox_II]

Redeemerslove:

I think there may have been some lack of charity in some peoples speculation, but we have to be careful about what we define as lack of charity.

Your clarifications are fine as I wasn’t implying that everyone here was unchariatble, just that there was an air of it in this thread, something you evidently find as well.

ken

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

First off… I know many Catholics and in most cases I have a better understanding of their religion than they do.

I’ve been told this by many people from the “you-worship-Mary” crowd. Please don’t take me to be saying that about your personally…I have no idea what you think the Church teaches. I’m just making a point that sometimes people are sure that they know what the Church teaches when they are actually mistaken.

All of my reasons for not belonging to the Catholic Church revolve around disagreements with some of their doctrines.

The Church is the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) and the fullness of truth (Eph 1:22-23, John 14:6). We are to conform ourselves to the truth that the Church teaches, we are not to create/search for churches which conform themseves to what WE believe is true.

In Christ,
Nancy