What is it with Protestants?

[kevinfraser]

PXseeker:

The “one tub” is bigger than any one tradition, imo.

CCC 83 Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

CCC 813 The Church is one because of her source: “the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit.” The Church is one because of her founder: for “the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, … restoring the unity of all in one people and one body.” The Church is one because of her “soul”: “It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity.” Unity is of the essence of the Church:
What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her “Church.”

You mean that “tub?”

 

[PXseeker]

kevinfraser:

CCC 83 Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

CCC 813 The Church is one because of her source: “the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit.” The Church is one because of her founder: for “the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, … restoring the unity of all in one people and one body.” The Church is one because of her “soul”: “It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity.” Unity is of the essence of the Church:
What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her “Church.”

You mean that “tub?”

#1 - I used “tradition” in the sense that some use “church” or “denomination”, not in the sense you cited.

#2 - Yes I mean that same church defined in CCC 813 - the church of all Christian saints, not just the Catholic church. Not very astonishing, all of us (hold your breath) confess "one holy catholic (small c) and apostolic church.

Some people just don’t have a good understanding of how big a tub it really is.

 

[Cairisti]

Well, I think mostly ignorance and perhaps not having any good Catholics around. Not to mention a lack of curiosity.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but had lots of Catholic friends at school. (My best friends were either Catholic or Orthodox when in school. ) Still, even then I was pretty ignorant of the Catholic faith not to mention my Baptist faith even though we went to church every Sunday.
Maybe it’s the friendships I’ve had with Catholic friends, but I was always drawn to ideas of the saints and angels, the early church (Pre-Reformation) not to mention the early church music. (I’m a history geek! ) I was always curious about the Catholic Church and so started reading about it. (Not by Protestants btw as I didn’t think they would be fair). For many years though, I had a hard time accepting certain doctrines, until I read the “right” book that made the light go on in my head with a “Hey, they ARE right!”
So, in 10 days will be starting RCIA classes. Finally, we’re coming home!

 

[II_Paradox_II]

Catholic4aReasn:

This may be true, as far as it goes. The trouble is that MANY Protestants disagree with what they mistakenly believe the Church teaches rather than with what the Church really teaches.

I actually agree with you here. Much of our discourse is driven by the polemical traditions we have all been handed by those who come before us (and these traditions are often born out of struggle and reflect the partisan spirit in which they were born).

But after all that is done, some of us still look at the actual teachings and find them less than compelling. In light of this, accusations of ignorance and willfull rebellion ring very hollow and seem to me to be more the product of an ecclesiastical solipsism than a charitable consideration of why other people may not see things the same way.

ken

 

[Little_Mary]

Cairisti:

Well, I think mostly ignorance and perhaps not having any good Catholics around. Not to mention a lack of curiosity.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but had lots of Catholic friends at school. (My best friends were either Catholic or Orthodox when in school. ) Still, even then I was pretty ignorant of the Catholic faith not to mention my Baptist faith even though we went to church every Sunday.
Maybe it’s the friendships I’ve had with Catholic friends, but I was always drawn to ideas of the saints and angels, the early church (Pre-Reformation) not to mention the early church music. (I’m a history geek! ) I was always curious about the Catholic Church and so started reading about it. (Not by Protestants btw as I didn’t think they would be fair). For many years though, I had a hard time accepting certain doctrines, until I read the “right” book that made the light go on in my head with a “Hey, they ARE right!”
So, in 10 days will be starting RCIA classes. Finally, we’re coming home!

Cairisti

Hello, welcome, and wishing you many blessings as you journey through RCIA this year. Keep us posted! (no pun intended!)

Little Mary:wave:

 

[David_W.Vaughn]

Because they are CONDITIONED to be protestant. I was.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Cairisti:

Well, I think mostly ignorance and perhaps not having any good Catholics around. Not to mention a lack of curiosity.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but had lots of Catholic friends at school. (My best friends were either Catholic or Orthodox when in school. ) Still, even then I was pretty ignorant of the Catholic faith not to mention my Baptist faith even though we went to church every Sunday.
Maybe it’s the friendships I’ve had with Catholic friends, but I was always drawn to ideas of the saints and angels, the early church (Pre-Reformation) not to mention the early church music. (I’m a history geek! ) I was always curious about the Catholic Church and so started reading about it. (Not by Protestants btw as I didn’t think they would be fair). For many years though, I had a hard time accepting certain doctrines, until I read the “right” book that made the light go on in my head with a “Hey, they ARE right!”
So, in 10 days will be starting RCIA classes. Finally, we’re coming home!

That is so wonderful! May the Lord richly bless you on your journey home!

May I ask which book was the “right” one for you?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mango_2003]

David W. Vaughn:

Because they are CONDITIONED to be protestant. I was.

That goes both ways buddy.

~mango~

 

[Mfaustina1]

Hey Mango,

I don’t think the person who mentioned being conditioned meant any insult. I know you are Protestant and yet you hang out here and contribute to this forum and I think you are largely appreciated here. I know I wouldn’t want to see you go away! I wouldn’t want to see any Protestant go away. I think we keep eachother on our toes! This is largely a good thing. It is only when we get passionate as we are so apt to do that we sometimes or even often can fall prey to polemics when discussing our faiths. I wish I could have said “faith”, but I can’t because we DO have differing faiths even as Christians and this is what is so troubling for us. (on both sides of the fence, I am more than sure.)

To all: I think Protestants don’t “get it” when it comes to the Catholic Church for more than one reason, but they all boil down to one point, and that is authority.

But we must also take into account that many have been so raised believing in the Bible alone as their sole authority in their Christian walk with God that it doesn’t even occur to them that anything else could or WOULD even be right. For this we MUST be patient and above all, charitable.

I have noticed that many Catholics on this site tend to resort to the same tactics toward Protestants in “defending” the Faith as Protestants do attacking it, using this as their basis for their actions. This does more harm than good and I hope we all remember one thing. We are all here on this forum to share and grow in our walk with God, Catholic and Protestant alike. Charity will win the day. (and eternity.) God bless! - Mfaustina1

 

[kevinfraser]

#1 - I used “tradition” in the sense that some use “church” or “denomination”, not in the sense you cited.

The sense I cited? We Catholics don’t have to make this stuff up. All we have to do is LOOK it up. The only part of my post that was mine was the very last line. You mistake Magisterium for my opinion.

Your “sense I cited” refers to Christ’s absolute Magisterial teaching authority in matters of faith and morals. That’s not my opinion you’re critiquing. Charity demands I tell you that.

You come to a Catholic discussion forum, you’re going to find the Catechism cited. Not what “some” unidentified people “sense.” Catholics are --or should be-- uncompromising on matters of faith and morals.

That’s what makes us Catholic. Catholic - capital C to make sure we’re not mistaken for Magisterium rejecting “catholics.” Don’t mistake Curia for Magisterium. Jesus promised protection for all time to His Magisterium. From the Holy Spirit. You 'c’atholics got something better than that?

We Catholics don’t deny Jesus’ Apostolic Magisterial teaching authority. We don’t use our own personal judgement in place of authentic Apostolic teaching because we know we can’t improve on Jesus’ teaching. We believe ALL His promises. We don’t interpret the Bible to our personal taste or vote because we understand the difference between we, the members of His Mystical body, and Him, the Head. We don’t account ourselves, the pupils, greater than Him, the Master. At least we shouldn’t.

Isn’t that what the “small-c” qualifier all boils down to? Claiming a sort of nondenominational non-existent supra-“catholicism” that rejects Holy Magisterium AS ITS DEFINING PURPOSE? How does that separation figure in Jesus’ prayer for our unity? Are you in or out?

Why not join instead? You can always leave. Jesus allowed that.

I presented a Magisterial response from the CCC (as opposed to opinion, BTW) and you “cited” me as ignorant.

Well I’m not, and you need to understand why.

You want to be “catholic” to escape being “Catholic” right? The capitalized ‘Church’ means Catholic as in Rome, Pope, Magisterium, Eucharist, Mass, other Sacraments (I could go on). That’s what you’re insisting I don’t “get,” right? That capital C and all it means is what you reject, right?

So, using your favorite sense of the uncapitalized word ‘tradition,’ if we plug your suggestions in:

In the light of (the Catholic Church’s) Tradition, these “churches” or “denominations”] can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the (Catholic) Church’s Magisterium.

Is that what you think p.83 of the Catechism really means? If so, you’re very close to the Kingdom, friend.

I’m not playing some word game here, just giving you what you asked for.

#2 - Yes I mean that same church defined in CCC 813 - the church of all Christian saints, not just the Catholic church. Not very astonishing, all of us (hold your breath) confess "one holy catholic (small c) and apostolic church.

But it refers exclusively to the Catholic Church. What do you think the seven capital C’s in that paragraph mean? Seven times? You think that’s a typo?

PXseeker:

Some people just don’t have a good understanding of how big a tub it really is.

Do you mean me?

I mean 1.3 Billion Catholics, up from 800 Million in 1978 when His Holiness Pope John Paul II, my hero, undertook the keys Jesus gave Peter. There aren’t any more Catholics than that.

There are catholics, but by definition, they’re all protestants because they reject Jesus’ Magisterium.

I heard an Evangelical convert to Catholicism last week on JH on EWTN say “In the next ten years most adults now living will ask themselves the question ‘Should I become Catholic?’”

PX, I think you’re jumping the gun. Keep seeking. You will find. I have that on the best authority.

 

[bob]

Cairisti:

Well, I think mostly ignorance and perhaps not having any good Catholics around. Not to mention a lack of curiosity.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but had lots of Catholic friends at school. (My best friends were either Catholic or Orthodox when in school. ) Still, even then I was pretty ignorant of the Catholic faith not to mention my Baptist faith even though we went to church every Sunday.
Maybe it’s the friendships I’ve had with Catholic friends, but I was always drawn to ideas of the saints and angels, the early church (Pre-Reformation) not to mention the early church music. (I’m a history geek! ) I was always curious about the Catholic Church and so started reading about it. (Not by Protestants btw as I didn’t think they would be fair). For many years though, I had a hard time accepting certain doctrines, until I read the “right” book that made the light go on in my head with a “Hey, they ARE right!”
So, in 10 days will be starting RCIA classes. Finally, we’re coming home!

Welcome home!

 

[Carl]

Something an earlier poster said struck me as insightful.

**Fear ** is at the bottom of why Protestants cannot move toward Catholicism. They are afraid to buck their families and church friends, who can be unforgiving. They are afraid to explore the teachings of the Church because they know it is ancient and might actually be the true Church, which would require the herculean effort to rethink their theology. (By the way, this *herculean effort syndrome * can be reinforced just by opening the Catholic Catechism to any page of stultifying prose.) They are afraid to yield their autonomy in deciding what certain passages of Scripture really do mean (as if they were born scholars on the Old and New Testament). They are afraid of the infallible papacy as a corrupt institution (yet are not afraid of the possibly corrupted infallibility that springs from their own private interpretation of Scripture).

And let’s face it: the principle of infallibility is alive and well everywhere in the Protestant world. We know this: whereas in Rome there is one infallible pope, in the Protestant world every person is his own pope.

 

[mango_2003]

Mfaustina1:

Hey Mango,

I don’t think the person who mentioned being conditioned meant any insult. I know you are Protestant and yet you hang out here and contribute to this forum and I think you are largely appreciated here. I know I wouldn’t want to see you go away! I wouldn’t want to see any Protestant go away. I think we keep eachother on our toes! This is largely a good thing. It is only when we get passionate as we are so apt to do that we sometimes or even often can fall prey to polemics when discussing our faiths. I wish I could have said “faith”, but I can’t because we DO have differing faiths even as Christians and this is what is so troubling for us. (on both sides of the fence, I am more than sure.)

I understand. I’m not going away anytime soon… Ya’ll can’t scare me away that easily!

To all: I think Protestants don’t “get it” when it comes to the Catholic Church for more than one reason, but they all boil down to one point, and that is authority.

Yes…I agree. However, here is where it should be stated in reminder that, as far as I know…we both agree that God is the authority. It’s how He shows that authority where things get sticky.

But we must also take into account that many have been so raised believing in the Bible alone as their sole authority in their Christian walk with God that it doesn’t even occur to them that anything else could or WOULD even be right. For this we MUST be patient and above all, charitable.

I have noticed that many Catholics on this site tend to resort to the same tactics toward Protestants in “defending” the Faith as Protestants do attacking it, using this as their basis for their actions. This does more harm than good and I hope we all remember one thing. We are all here on this forum to share and grow in our walk with God, Catholic and Protestant alike. Charity will win the day. (and eternity.) God bless! - Mfaustina1

Thanks for the post. God bless.

~mango~

 

[PXseeker]

kevinfraser:

PX, I think you’re jumping the gun. Keep seeking. You will find. I have that on the best authority.

Kevin,

You seem to be very angry. Don’t let emotions cloud your dialogue. You have a good grasp of what the Catholic Church’s official teaching are on these things and can cite them well. In my day all we did was spend 9 years in a parochial school of parroting back the Baltimore Cathechism.

Christianity is not a “win / lose” game it’s not “us vs. them”. If you like rules and bright lines, you’re in the right place and I don’t have a problem with that. I do have a problem with the institutional hierarchy in that church, which is why I chose to leave.

You don’t seem to be very tolerant of other Christian traditions, quite the opposite of my views. I accept all Christians as part of a global family, I pray that one day we will all be in communion, accepting and acknowledging differences, but sharing and affirming the wonderful gift of God’s salvation through the gift of His Son.

Peace,
John

 

[mango_2003]

Carl:

Something an earlier poster said struck me as insightful.

**Fear ** is at the bottom of why Protestants cannot move toward Catholicism. They are afraid to buck their families and church friends, who can be unforgiving. They are afraid to explore the teachings of the Church because they know it is ancient and might actually be the true Church, which would require the herculean effort to rethink their theology. (By the way, this *herculean effort syndrome * can be reinforced just by opening the Catholic Catechism to any page of stultifying prose.) They are afraid to yield their autonomy in deciding what certain passages of Scripture really do mean (as if they were born scholars on the Old and New Testament). They are afraid of the infallible papacy as a corrupt institution (yet are not afraid of the possibly corrupted infallibility that springs from their own private interpretation of Scripture).

And let’s face it: the principle of infallibility is alive and well everywhere in the Protestant world. We know this: whereas in Rome there is one infallible pope, in the Protestant world every person is his own pope.

I’m sorry for being blunt and I don’t mean this to be offensive, but…you’re wrong!

I will agree…SOME Protestants may not convert due to fear, just as SOME Protestants, myself included, won’t convert due to differences in beliefs. I’m not going to join an organization that I don’t agree with. It’s hypocritical. I will put this on record. I don’t fear your denomination. I embrace it for what it is, and realized that we differ in opinion.

No Protestant (well, hopefully none) will claim to be infallible. All fall short of the glory of God. The only that is infallible and physically tangible in the Word of God. No Protestant will claim that his or her personal interpretation of the Bible is 100% correct. That is why we are constantly studying to learn and understand what exactly God wants from us and where He wants us to go. We trust and have faith that the Lord will guide us in the direction He wants us to go. While there might be some “Protestant” groups out there that claim infallibility, a majority WILL NOT. This seems to be a VERY common misconception of Protestantism among the Roman Catholics on these boards.

Peace be with you,

~mango~

 

[carol_marie]

This thread is pretty much talked out but I will add my two cents for what it’s worth. When I went “looking” for God I didn’t consider the Catholic Church because I had been to mass more than a few times and I always felt like it was a very unfriendly place and the people looked bored to be there… didn’t sing and plus they all mumbled the “lines” and I didn’t know the script so I couldn’t even follow along to read what was going on. (This wasn’t just an isolated mass - I attended with my husband’s family every time we visited them) After mass no one talked to anyone else… they all just filed out and that was that. No one talked about the homily or anything. It was like - well check that off the list for the day. Besides my husband’s entire family I’ve know lots of Cahtolics over the years and NEVER have they invited me to their church or even talked about what they believe or why. It was almost like a secret sort of club that didn’t want outsiders. Contrast that to the Protestant services (Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist etc.) where people would go out of their way to introduce themselves and make us feel welcome. The worship was great, the prayers were so moving, the bible studies and programs for the kids were awesome and got us all excited about God. I gotta tell ya, in general the Protestants I know are excited about God and serve him JOYFULLY. Add to that, we met literally tons of former Catholics who were continually giving their testimonies about how they never “knew” Jesus in the Catholic Chruch - never knew a thing about the Bible or their faith and are so thankful they became Christians; ie: Protestants So why in the world would I want to leave all I know and love - happy, friendly, God-loving people and join the Catholic Church (which, thanks to sex abuse crisis) looks even LESS appealing?? That’s easy: The Eucharist. I have come to believe that Jesus meant what he said, It IS HIS body and blood and I do believe the Catholic Church is the only church that Christ established to feed HIS people. Am I happy about that? Honestly, not really. I have been going to mass for a few months now and I start my RCIA classes in the fall but I DO miss my old church and the enthusiasm of the people and leaving all that behind is like “picking up my cross” and following HIM. So, before you go slamming those “ignorant” Protestants too much, consider that maybe they could teach “us” a thing or two. God Bless. <><

 

[kevinfraser]

Please post your long private response to me in the thread you started. It will reveal a lot if you refuse, or if you edit it at all.

I certainly will understand why if you edit it first.

 

[madavis]

As a former Protestant I can tell you it is a combination of ignorance and the overwhemling number of “Catholics” who don’t know their own faith. Both play a huge role in the anti-catholicism of Protestants.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

carol marie:

This thread is pretty much talked out but I will add my two cents for what it’s worth. When I went “looking” for God I didn’t consider the Catholic Church because I had been to mass more than a few times and I always felt like it was a very unfriendly place and the people looked bored to be there… didn’t sing and plus they all mumbled the “lines” and I didn’t know the script so I couldn’t even follow along to read what was going on. (This wasn’t just an isolated mass - I attended with my husband’s family every time we visited them) After mass no one talked to anyone else… they all just filed out and that was that. No one talked about the homily or anything. It was like - well check that off the list for the day. Besides my husband’s entire family I’ve know lots of Cahtolics over the years and NEVER have they invited me to their church or even talked about what they believe or why. It was almost like a secret sort of club that didn’t want outsiders. Contrast that to the Protestant services (Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist etc.) where people would go out of their way to introduce themselves and make us feel welcome. The worship was great, the prayers were so moving, the bible studies and programs for the kids were awesome and got us all excited about God. I gotta tell ya, in general the Protestants I know are excited about God and serve him JOYFULLY. Add to that, we met literally tons of former Catholics who were continually giving their testimonies about how they never “knew” Jesus in the Catholic Chruch - never knew a thing about the Bible or their faith and are so thankful they became Christians; ie: Protestants So why in the world would I want to leave all I know and love - happy, friendly, God-loving people and join the Catholic Church (which, thanks to sex abuse crisis) looks even LESS appealing?? That’s easy: The Eucharist. I have come to believe that Jesus meant what he said, It IS HIS body and blood and I do believe the Catholic Church is the only church that Christ established to feed HIS people. Am I happy about that? Honestly, not really. I have been going to mass for a few months now and I start my RCIA classes in the fall but I DO miss my old church and the enthusiasm of the people and leaving all that behind is like “picking up my cross” and following HIM. So, before you go slamming those “ignorant” Protestants too much, consider that maybe they could teach “us” a thing or two. God Bless. <><

The point you bring up here is something that we discussed on another board I go to; the attitude of former Protestants and former Catholics toward what they left.

I’ve very much noticed that Protestants who become Catholic do so because of TRUTH. They are often very happy where they were, very grateful for the foundation that was set, enjoyed the worship and fellowship, just as you have described above. Yet the Lord puts something on their hearts and they follow it, not because they necessarily feel like it, but because it’s true.

On the other hand, Catholics who become Protestants have a “good-riddence” sort of attitude. They didn’t FEEL that there was much to keep them there so they went where they could FEEL more. They have nothing but bad things to say about the Church they left and are often times the most venomous anti-Catholics, seeming to know almost nothing about what the Church teaches, but being quite well versed in, and convinced of, the basic misconceptions.

Just a phenomenon that I find interesting and quite common.

Anyone else notice this?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by Catholic4aReason

I’ve very much noticed that Protestants who become Catholic do so because of TRUTH. They are often very happy where they were, very grateful for the foundation that was set, enjoyed the worship and fellowship, just as you have described above. Yet the Lord puts something on their hearts and they follow it, not because they necessarily feel like it, but because it’s true.

On the other hand, Catholics who become Protestants have a “good-riddence” sort of attitude. They didn’t FEEL that there was much to keep them there so they went where they could FEEL more. They have nothing but bad things to say about the Church they left and are often times the most venomous anti-Catholics, seeming to know almost nothing about what the Church teaches, but being quite well versed in, and convinced of, the basic misconceptions.

Just a phenomenon that I find interesting and quite common.

Anyone else notice this?

Yep. I have not meet a person who attends church regularly who used to be Catholic who understands Catholic teaching. The “reasons” they left do not exist in the Real Teachings of the Catholic Church. They do not neccessarily have a hatred for the Church, but they have a great fear and loathing for what they think the church teaches.

But deep down in my heart there is nothing I like better than the worship songs and upbeat worship music of an Assembly of God on fire for God. Oh wait, there is something better, the Eucharist, that brought me home. But my heart does yearn for a nice Charismatic Catholic Church at times.