What is keeping Orthodox and Lutherans from unifying?

[KP3243]

Ok. And I’m not thinking this is Sacramental Union. So, yes, we agree.

Jon

I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters and I want to make sure I understand them because they are so important.

 

[JonNC]

I assume because the Church doesn’t honor Constantine as a Saint and the Orthodox do it is also a problem.

You’d have to ask them if that’s a problem. I’m more inclined to think its things like the Filioque, some of the marian doctrines perhaps. things that are doctrinal.

Jon

 

[KP3243]

You’d have to ask them if that’s a problem. I’m more inclined to think its things like the Filioque, some of the marian doctrines perhaps. things that are doctrinal.

Jon

What Marian doctrines?

 

[JonNC]

Since Trent was the official response to the reformation, and Traditions normally get clarified in writing during councils, is it possilbe that the Church’s definition using transubstantiation was because Luther somehow diminished the Real Presense? If there was no heresy …the council would not have addressed it.

Well, we would disagree as to whether or not Luther diminished the sacrament. I certainly don’t think so. I don’t think this sounds like diminishing:

"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.

I think it is the doctrine of Transubstantiation which he and reformers dismissed as sophistical that lead to its being covered at Trent.

Jon

 

[SPH1]

Let’s also remember that there are other issues, as well.

My point exactly. Any one of these other issues can be just as much as a stumbling block as the Papacy. First, let’s see a united Protestant/Eastern Orthodox Church. Then the Catholic Church can be thrown into the mix.

It is not the papal institution, per se. It is the belief that the pope has universal jurisdiction over the entire Church.

How can there be a united Church without some type of universal jurisdiction? Some final authority to determine orthodoxy from heresy. And no, I don’t mean each individual interpreting the “truth” of scripture for themself; that’s how this mess of division began and continues.

IMO, the only groups that have any hope of “unity” are basically Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans and some Anglicans. The rest are so far removed from the historic church that, barring some divine intervention/miracle, unity with them will never occur…although they may eventually have some unity amongst themselves.

 

[KP3243]

Quote:
It is not the papal institution, per se. It is the belief that the pope has universal jurisdiction over the entire Church.​

Not for anything but isn’t what Jesus established what we should be following if we are His disciples? There is also a reason why the Church is headquarterd in Rome, it comes right form Daniel 7. When God was ready to establish His people, He moved them them out of Egypt after a 400 year struggle, He did it again almost the identical pattern when He established the New Covenant He moved them to Rome a city they didn’t build just like He did with the Children of Isreal and after a struggle He gave the Kingdom to the saints, the Holy people of the Most High.

 

[RileyG]

Orthodox- do not accept certain (Roman Catholic) doctrines (ie. Immaculate Conception, Filoque, etc)

Lutherans- Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, reject transubutation etc

 

[KP3243]

Orthodox- do not accept certain (Roman Catholic) doctrines (ie. Immaculate Conception, Filoque, etc)

Lutherans- Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, reject transubutation etc

I don’t understand how people can believe in Sola Scriptural? The Catholic Church created the Holy Bible in the 4th century using sacred tradition to make sure that all the cannon was correct.

 

[RyanBlack]

I assume because the Church doesn’t honor Constantine as a Saint and the Orthodox do it is also a problem.

Not a problem at all, because it’s not true that the Church doesn’t honor St. Constantine, Equal to the Apostles, as a saint. He is revered as a saint among the Eastern Churches (at least those of the Byzantine rite) that are in communion with Rom.

 

[KP3243]

Not a problem at all, because it’s not true that the Church doesn’t honor St. Constantine, Equal to the Apostles, as a saint. He is revered as a saint among the Eastern Churches (at least those of the Byzantine rite) that are in communion with Rom.

But the Roman rite doesn’t and I believe the doctrine of separation of Church and State in the 5th century was a result of Constantine and other Emperors trying to create something like the Davidic Kingdom.

 

[Memaw]

Well, that was pleasant.

Tell me, Memaw, where did I try to tell you what the Catholic Church teaches?
I think I reserved my comments to describing what we believe.

Jon

I didn’t say you tried to tell me what the Catholic Church teaches, I did say you evidently don’t understand what the Catholic Church believes and teaches about Transubstantiation.

 

[RyanBlack]

But the Roman rite doesn’t and I believe the doctrine of separation of Church and State in the 5th century was a result of Constantine and other Emperors trying to create something like the Davidic Kingdom.

I have two points. First of all it’s not true, as you said, that **the Church **does not revere St. Constantine as a saint, as is proven by the fact that he is revered in Eastern Churches. My second point is that the fact that he is revered as a saint among Latin Christians and he is by the Orthodox shouldn’t pose a problem between Catholics and Orthodox for two reasons: 1) Eastern Catholics already revere him as a saint, and 2) the Orthodox already have their own traditions of some saints being revered locally, and not universally (as do Catholics, obviously).

 

[RyanBlack]

I didn’t say you tried to tell me what the Catholic Church teaches, I did say you evidently don’t understand what the Catholic Church believes and teaches about Transubstantiation.

A claim that borders on being laughable. Jon understands quite well what the Catholic Church teaches about transubstantiation.

 

[EIF5A]

I don’t understand how people can believe in Sola Scriptural? The Catholic Church created the Holy Bible in the 4th century using sacred tradition to make sure that all the cannon was correct.

Was the Bible “created” in the 4th century or “compiled” from pre-existing writings?

If compiled, were these pre-existing writings already truthful inspired revelations from God or did they become divinely-inspired revelations after the 4th century?

 

[KP3243]

Was the Bible “created” in the 4th century or “compiled” from pre-existing writings?

If compiled, were these pre-existing writings already truthful inspired revelations from God or did they become divinely-inspired revelations after the 4th century?

Compiled into one book called the Holy Bible

 

[KP3243]

I have two points. First of all it’s not true, as you said, that **the Church **does not revere St. Constantine as a saint, as is proven by the fact that he is revered in Eastern Churches. My second point is that the fact that he is revered as a saint among Latin Christians and he is by the Orthodox shouldn’t pose a problem between Catholics and Orthodox for two reasons: 1) Eastern Catholics already revere him as a saint, and 2) the Orthodox already have their own traditions of some saints being revered locally, and not universally (as do Catholics, obviously).

What Latin Christians? Or do you mean Latin Catholics?

 

[Memaw]

My point exactly. Any one of these other issues can be just as much as a stumbling block as the Papacy. First, let’s see a united Protestant/Eastern Orthodox Church. Then the Catholic Church can be thrown into the mix.

How can there be a united Church without some type of universal jurisdiction? Some final authority to determine orthodoxy from heresy. And no, I don’t mean each individual interpreting the “truth” of scripture for themself; that’s how this mess of division began and continues.

IMO, the only groups that have any hope of “unity” are basically Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans and some Anglicans. The rest are so far removed from the historic church that, barring some divine intervention/miracle, unity with them will never occur…although they may eventually have some unity amongst themselves.

Many Protestant Ministers have converted to Catholicism, (as well as many lay people,) in the past few decades. I wonder why??? Do you suppose they found the TRUTH? Maybe that’s the way unity will come about. God works in Mysterious ways His wonders to preform. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

A claim that borders on being laughable. Jon understands quite well what the Catholic Church teaches about transubstantiation.

Evidently not or Jon would be a Catholic.God Bless, Memaw

 

[RyanBlack]

What Latin Christians? Or do you mean Latin Catholics?

I wrote, “My second point is that the fact that he is revered as a saint among Latin Christians”. I intended to write, “My second point is the fact that he is not revered as a saint among Latin Catholics”.

 

[RyanBlack]

Evidently not or Jon would be a Catholic.God Bless, Memaw

So everyone who is not Catholic does not understand Catholic teaching about transubstantiation? That is laughable–beyond laughable. Furthermore, it’s insulting to the intelligence of many non-Catholics who understand quite well (better than many Catholics) what the Catholic Church teaches about transubstantiation.