What is keeping the Anglicans and Lutherans from unifying?

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One can certainly find the occasional chuckle in history, yes.

The* Assertio Septem Sacramentorum*, which was credited to Henry (and he likely wrote at least the first chapter) was indeed dedicated to the Pope. And it played a part, though not a major one, in his receiving the* Defensor Fide*i title (an amusing story, that; I’ve related it here before, always glad to do it again.

Your last sentence seems a little garbled, but what I said about Henry and the English monarchy, over the 300 years up to the Henrician Acts, in general, is correct. Henry’s first prominent run-in with the Church was indeed over his decree. That was the sort of thing (conflict of interests and power struggles) that had led to the Council of Westminster, Council of Clarendon, First Statute of Winchester, Statute of Mortmain, the Writ Circumspecte agatis , the Statue of Carlisle, and the double Statutes of Provisors and Praemunire, over those 300 years or so.

GKC
Forgive me for being frank but this is what it looks like to me. There had been tiffs between the English Monarchy and the See of Rome for a while but nothing which ever caused the English Monarchy to break with the Roman See. This continued submission to the Roman See gives one the impression that the English Monarchy recognized the authority of Rome and that the English Monarchy was Roman Catholic. Then Henry comes along and attacks a known heretic of the Roman Catholic Church and defends His Roman Catholic Faith while dedicating this work to his Pope. Henry also in his own life showed that he recognized the authority of Rome and it’s Pope by requesting a dispensation from the Pope so he could marry his brothers widow. Yet it is not until the Pope makes a move which could end the dynasty of Henry do we see him actually oppose the Roman See. Kind of interesting how Henry gets the epiphany to shake off the evil Roman See and Her Pope only when the future of his dynasty is threatened. I mean clearly his actions and book show he didn’t have a problem with the Church, the Pope, or the theology of the Catholic Faith until it came at a personal cost to him.

I wonder would the protection of one’s own dynasty be a valid excuse for an Anglican to break away from the Anglican Church?
 
Nothing is keeping Anglicans and Lutherans from uniting. The Provoo Communion in Europe and the full communion of Episcopalians and Lutherans in the US are examples of very close ties. In-fact the Anglican Church of Canada and the Lutheran Church of Canada held a joint assembly a month ago.

Aside from historic roots, Anglicans and Lutherans, Anglo and Evangelical Catholics, could very well merge into one Church well within our life times.
 
Forgive me for being frank but this is what it looks like to me. There had been tiffs between the English Monarchy and the See of Rome for a while but nothing which ever caused the English Monarchy to break with the Roman See. This continued submission to the Roman See gives one the impression that the English Monarchy recognized the authority of Rome and that the English Monarchy was Roman Catholic. Then Henry comes along and attacks a known heretic of the Roman Catholic Church and defends His Roman Catholic Faith while dedicating this work to his Pope. Henry also in his own life showed that he recognized the authority of Rome and it’s Pope by requesting a dispensation from the Pope so he could marry his brothers widow. Yet it is not until the Pope makes a move which could end the dynasty of Henry do we see him actually oppose the Roman See. Kind of interesting how Henry gets the epiphany to shake off the evil Roman See and Her Pope only when the future of his dynasty is threatened. I mean clearly his actions and book show he didn’t have a problem with the Church, the Pope, or the theology of the Catholic Faith until it came at a personal cost to him.

I wonder would the protection of one’s own dynasty be a valid excuse for an Anglican to break away from the Anglican Church?
Frank is fine. Informed is, too.

Henry didn’t request a dispensation to marry Catherine. His father did, in order to keep both the dowry she brought, when she married Arthur, and to keep the political ties that the arranged marriage provided with the Spanish Monarchs.

For a good understanding of Henry’s motives and drives, and also Clement’s, for that matter, the best book is Scarisbrick’s bio, HENRY VIII. I recommend it. As in all things historical, it’s complicated. Theology and politics.

GKC
 
With respect to Anglicans that is, for RCs, more than an allegation; it’s a judgement, as found in Apostolicae Curae. But the issue of the sacramental form of ordination /confirmation is intertwined with the sacramental intent, in that judgement. A complicated issue.

GKC
Solved for Anglican convert clergy (in the Personal Ordinariate) by re-ordination. Thus, all doubt is erased. As to the Lutheran liturgy, it is so completely divorced from either the Catholic or the Orthodox that there is little common ground remaining.
 
Solved for Anglican convert clergy (in the Personal Ordinariate) by re-ordination. Thus, all doubt is erased. As to the Lutheran liturgy, it is so completely divorced from either the Catholic or the Orthodox that there is little common ground remaining.
No, not re-ordination. Since ordination imparts an indelible character, it is not something that can be repeated. All the Anglican priests who are ordained in the Ordinariate are ordained absolutely. I had been curious to see if any would be given ordination sub conditione and I correctly predicted that none would be. Only two known cases of such sub conditione ordination are known, post Apostolicae Curae.

GKC
 
No, not re-ordination. Since ordination imparts an indelible character, it is not something that can be repeated. All the Anglican priests who are ordained in the Ordinariate are ordained absolutely. I had been curious to see if any would be given ordination sub conditione and I correctly predicted that none would be. Only two known cases of such sub conditione ordination are known, post Apostolicae Curae.

GKC
Are you saying that Anglican orders are valid?
 
He got his pantaloons in a bunch and went against the Pope. Interestingly enough Henry didn’t have a problem with submitting to Papal authority, that is until the day the Pope told him, NO!
It is my understanding that he was a very faithful Catholic…even writing a book in support of the papacy, correct?
 
Awesome question!

We’re really not ‘Lutheran’ - we’re Evangelical Catholics. The name ‘Lutheran’ was given to us by our opponents and in true feisty German fashion, we took it and ran with it.
So, regardless of the source, the net result is the same…Lutherans have taken on some characteristics of the man.

It’s understandable. Franciscans, Dominicans and Augustinians all have different charisms and they attract different people based on those founders’ temperaments.
 
I wonder would the protection of one’s own dynasty be a valid excuse for an Anglican to break away from the Anglican Church?
Frank is fine. Informed is, too. GKC
GKC-

How would you respond to Hypno’s question?

Is protection of one’s own personal interests a valid reason for some to leave the Anglican Church today?

If not, why accept such behavior from Henry?
 
No, not re-ordination. Since ordination imparts an indelible character, it is not something that can be repeated. All the Anglican priests who are ordained in the Ordinariate are ordained absolutely. I had been curious to see if any would be given ordination sub conditione and I correctly predicted that none would be. Only two known cases of such sub conditione ordination are known, post Apostolicae Curae.

GKC
This is where I’m fuzzy, and some help would be greatly appreciated. I know you have explained this many times, but I explain purgatory and “Maryolatry” endlessly, too…these at the crosses we bear…in love.

As briefly as you like, please explain the issue surrounding the decision of Rome that Anglican orders are not valid AND how the Dutch touch (or other similar matters) might have rehabilitated the Anglican sacrament of ordination.

I will read a link or two in addition to your “Cliff’s Notes” version. Thanks!
 
So, regardless of the source, the net result is the same…Lutherans have taken on some characteristics of the man.

It’s understandable. Franciscans, Dominicans and Augustinians all have different charisms and they attract different people based on those founders’ temperaments.
I think, Randy, that this is a fair assessment. We, honestly, have taken on some of the “characteristics” of Fr. Martin. Not all, to be sure.
I consider yours to be a far more honest assessment than the polemical “you follow Luther, not Christ, because your name is Lutheran” that we sometimes hear.

Jon
 
I was going to make a similar topic asking a question to Anglicans and Lutherans but I suppose I’ll just ask here.

I am an Evangelical Protestant who will be starting RCIA in October and there was one main thing that kept me out of the Anglican Church (even though I was baptized Anglican as an enfant) and it’s the history. Does anyone deny that the original break from the CC by king Henry was for his own personal interests? We know that he wanted to divorce Catherine and marry Anne Boelyn thus starting his own Church. So my question is, how does one who wants to join an Apostolic Church choose one that was created for selfish reasons?

As for Lutherans, (and this is specifically for me, so don’t take this as a hit on your religion) how does one take a spiritual belief named after a man? To be a Lutheran I then take on Luther’s name in my identity. Why choose a belief named after a man, instead of the universal belief that existed 1500 years before?

This is simply an observers point of view who had to choose between Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran.
See my response in post #29 to Randy’s comment.

Jon
 
Speaking as a former Anglican, you’re right.

But the question is rather vague. Which Anglican church? Which Lutheran church? There are many flavors of both.

Which begs the question: What is keeping the Lutherans from uniting? Fuggetabout uniting with the Anglicans - how about uniting with each other? (and the same goes for the Anglicans).

(I’m not *really *asking what is keeping Lutherans from uniting with each other - that’s a whole nuther thing. I’m just pointing out that if Lutherans can’t seem to unite with other Lutherans, they’re unlikely to unite with Anglicans.)

I presume the OP is asking about unity, not just communion - ie, the Lutheran and Anglican churches become one bigger church under common leadership (unity). Not that they just get along (communion).
I think, in many ways, this is overstated. Aside from the very small congregational groups, Lutherans worldwide are in synods which are essentially in two international groups: the Lutheran World Federation, which generally reflects the more liberal side of Lutheranism, and the International Lutheran Council, the more confessional grouping.

I would contend that, virtually anywhere in the world, in almost any synod, were I to present myself to a pastor as a Lutheran to receive the Eucharist, I would be welcome at the table. Even in synods such as Missouri, which practices “close communion”, this can be the case.

Jon
 
GKC-

How would you respond to Hypno’s question?

Is protection of one’s own personal interests a valid reason for some to leave the Anglican Church today?

If not, why accept such behavior from Henry?
You misunderstand what I do in these sort of posts. I am not justifying Henry (that fascinating train wreck). I’m relating history.

The system in which Henry (and Clement, and Charles, and Catherine) was entangled was a complicated one, designed to simultaneously allow the Church to control the sacramental nature of matrimony, and to permit the making and breaking of dynastic marriages for dynastic reasons. The system, in design and in execution, was both theologically and politically driven. Henry’s case was settled primarily on the political side: his causa, while not as strong as it might have been (lots of details packed into that statement) was a strong as was customary. But given the relationship between Clement and Charles, and Charles and Catherine, no way was Henry going to get a decree of nullity, no how. An Emperor trumps a King. And an Emperor controlling a Pope is stronger still. So Henry didn’t get his decree. He got a Church, somewhat to his surprise.

And the system, designed to handle both theological issues and political ones, worked. But the world in which this sort of control by the Church, over the nascent nationalism rising in Europe, was about to come to an end. Henry was a perfect storm/poster child.

I’m not interested in justifying Henry, but in explaining him (and the system he was dealing with). Something I’ve done in detail here, for years. My response to the question would be to suggest more reading. Say, Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII or Kelly’s MATRIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII.

GKC
 
Possibly because they have different doctrines. Anglicans believe in apostolic succession, while Lutherans believe in the priesthood of all believers.
 
=EvangelCatholic;11176557]Nothing is keeping Anglicans and Lutherans from uniting. The Provoo Communion in Europe and the full communion of Episcopalians and Lutherans in the US are examples of very close ties. In-fact the Anglican Church of Canada and the Lutheran Church of Canada held a joint assembly a month ago.
This is true, and sometimes overlooked. Porvoo Communion is a dramatic level of unity among Lutherans and Anglicans, though, and I say this without malice, the Lutheran synods and state Churches involved tend to be from the more liberal wing of Lutheranism, who look at doctrine and the confessions in a different way than confessional Lutherans do.
Aside from historic roots, Anglicans and Lutherans, Anglo and Evangelical Catholics, could very well merge into one Church well within our life times.
For Anglo-Catholics and confessional Lutherans (Evangelical Catholics), the task is a bit more difficult, because both groups tend to hold doctrine in a stricter way than our more liberal brethren. GKC and I have openly mused about this on CAF before.

Jon
 
Possibly because they have different doctrines. Anglicans believe in apostolic succession, while Lutherans believe in the priesthood of all believers.
These are not mutually exclusive. I believe I’ve already quoted the Apology of the Augsburg Confession’s statement that we are not opposed to AS. We may view it somewhat differently, but we are not opposed to it. EvangelCatholic has mentioned the different Lutheran-Anglican communions, such as Porvoo, and the Call to Common Mission here in America. In both cases the Lutherans have accepted AS, the Catholic view of those orders notwithstanding.

Jon
 
This is where I’m fuzzy, and some help would be greatly appreciated. I know you have explained this many times, but I explain purgatory and “Maryolatry” endlessly, too…these at the crosses we bear…in love.

As briefly as you like, please explain the issue surrounding the decision of Rome that Anglican orders are not valid AND how the Dutch touch (or other similar matters) might have rehabilitated the Anglican sacrament of ordination.

I will read a link or two in addition to your “Cliff’s Notes” version. Thanks!
The issues surrounding Apostolicae Curae are many and varied. They are theological to be sure. And also historical, political and personal. I deal usually only with the theological. I suggest readings for the rest.

Apostolicae Curae found two related objections to the validity of Anglican orders, from the point the supposed invalid form in the Edwardine Ordinal was used. The form of the consecration/ordination rite was judged invalid, due to not mentioning the power of the priesthood to offer the sacrificial Mass. But this was not uncommon, in liturgical rites which the RCC does recognize as validly conveying valid orders, other things being equally valid (Saepius Officio mentioned this). So the question of valid intent was intertwined with that of the liturgical form.

Valid sacramental intent is, as Apostolicae Curae says, an interior condition of the sacramental minister, and not necessarily subject to positive examination or judgment. The minimum required for valid sacramental intent is for the minister to intend facere quod facit eccelesia, to intend to do what the Church does, in the action. Since intent is interior, valid intent is normally assumed, if all other aspects of the sacramental action (minister, form, matter, subject) are themselves demonstrably valid. However, if there is some external aspect that permits a judgment of the intent, permitting a determinatio ex adiunctis, that may permit a judgment of invalid sacramental intent. In the logic of Apostolicae Curae, that was the use of the Ordinal. Given the circumstances in which the Ordinal was written, and by whom, it was assumed that the intent of anyone who used that form sacramentally was (by determinatio ex adiunctis) considered sacramentally invalid. Thus, through the joined questions of form and intent, each leading to a determination of invalidity, the orders were declared invalid. Had the Ordinal not been written, and the Pontificale Romanum continued in use, the logic of AC would have been necessarily different. Not that the Orders would have been declared valid, necessarily, but some other point might have served.

The supposed defective form in the Ordinal was cured, in the 1662 revision to the Ordinal, for reasons unrelated to this question. The logic of the Dutch touch, then, would be that the form is now not what it was, and one might logically assume that OC bishops, validly though illicitly consecrated, would convey valid though illicit orders to Anglican bishops, who would transmit them in turn, per Ott, p. 458. Logically, that is. I am not aware of any formal, official RC pronouncement on that. But it is quite clear, in the statements of the first OC joint consecrators,in 1932, that their intent was sacramentally valid.

That is a minimal thumbnail sketch; I’ve done far more detailed ones. I do not suggest links, I suggest books. Of the 25 or so I own on the subject, I always pick out (then Jesuit Fr.) Francis Clark’s ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION and Fr. John J. Hughes two titles: ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID and STEWARDS OF THE LORD, as the best. The first Hughes title is the best, indeed the only, detailed book length study of the history of the sad story of AC.

GKC
 
You misunderstand what I do in these sort of posts. I am not justifying Henry (that fascinating train wreck). I’m relating history.

The system in which Henry (and Clement, and Charles, and Catherine) was entangled was a complicated one, designed to simultaneously allow the Church to control the sacramental nature of matrimony, and to permit the making and breaking of dynastic marriages for dynastic reasons. The system, in design and in execution, was both theologically and politically driven. Henry’s case was settled primarily on the political side: his causa, while not as strong as it might have been (lots of details packed into that statement) was a strong as was customary. But given the relationship between Clement and Charles, and Charles and Catherine, no way was Henry going to get a decree of nullity, no how. An Emperor trumps a King. And an Emperor controlling a Pope is stronger still. So Henry didn’t get his decree. He got a Church, somewhat to his surprise.

And the system, designed to handle both theological issues and political ones, worked. But the world in which this sort of control by the Church, over the nascent nationalism rising in Europe, was about to come to an end. Henry was a perfect storm/poster child.

I’m not interested in justifying Henry, but in explaining him (and the system he was dealing with). Something I’ve done in detail here, for years. My response to the question would be to suggest more reading. Say, Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII or Kelly’s MATRIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII.

GKC
GKC-

I understand what you’re saying here, but I am still interested in hearing your answer to the question. Let me rephrase it this way:

If it was “okay” for Henry to break communion with Rome in order to protect his own interests, would it be equally acceptable for someone to break fellowship with Canterbury for their own personal interests?
 
The issues surrounding Apostolicae Curae are many and varied. They are theological to be sure. And also historical, political and personal. I deal usually only with the theological. I suggest readings for the rest.

Apostolicae Curae found two related objections to the validity of Anglican orders, from the point the supposed invalid form in the Edwardine Ordinal was used. The form of the consecration/ordination rite was judged invalid, due to not mentioning the power of the priesthood to offer the sacrificial Mass. But this was not uncommon, in liturgical rites which the RCC does recognize as validly conveying valid orders, other things being equally valid (Saepius Officio mentioned this). So the question of valid intent was intertwined with that of the liturgical form.

Valid sacramental intent is, as Apostolicae Curae says, an interior condition of the sacramental minister, and not necessarily subject to positive examination or judgment. The minimum required for valid sacramental intent is for the minister to intend facere quod facit eccelesia, to intend to do what the Church does, in the action. Since intent is interior, valid intent is normally assumed, if all other aspects of the sacramental action (minister, form, matter, subject) are themselves demonstrably valid. However, if there is some external aspect that permits a judgment of the intent, permitting a determinatio ex adiunctis, that may permit a judgment of invalid sacramental intent. In the logic of Apostolicae Curae, that was the use of the Ordinal. Given the circumstances in which the Ordinal was written, and by whom, it was assumed that the intent of anyone who used that form sacramentally was (by determinatio ex adiunctis) considered sacramentally invalid. Thus, through the joined questions of form and intent, each leading to a determination of invalidity, the orders were declared invalid. Had the Ordinal not been written, and the Pontificale Romanum continued in use, the logic of AC would have been necessarily different. Not that the Orders would have been declared valid, necessarily, but some other point might have served.

The supposed defective form in the Ordinal was cured, in the 1662 revision to the Ordinal, for reasons unrelated to this question. The logic of the Dutch touch, then, would be that the form is now not what it was, and one might logically assume that OC bishops, validly though illicitly consecrated, would convey valid though illicit orders to Anglican bishops, who would transmit them in turn, per Ott, p. 458. Logically, that is. I am not aware of any formal, official RC pronouncement on that. But it is quite clear, in the statements of the first OC joint consecrators,in 1932, that their intent was sacramentally valid.

That is a minimal thumbnail sketch; I’ve done far more detailed ones. I do not suggest links, I suggest books. Of the 25 or so I own on the subject, I always pick out (then Jesuit Fr.) Francis Clark’s ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION and Fr. John J. Hughes two titles: ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID and STEWARDS OF THE LORD, as the best. The first Hughes title is the best, indeed the only, detailed book length study of the history of the sad story of AC.

GKC
So, after reading all those books and thinking about this far deeply than I ever will, what is your opinion?

Was Rome right in judging the Anglican orders to be invalid?
If so, why?
If not, why not?
 
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