What is keeping the Anglicans and Lutherans from unifying?

[GKC]

So, after reading all those books and thinking about this far deeply than I ever will, what is your opinion?

Was Rome right in judging the Anglican orders to be invalid?
If so, why?
If not, why not?

My opinion is that Rome has judged Anglican orders invalid, for reasons that are at least ostensibly theological.

For anything else, I suggest you read for yourself. I do not think the case conclusive, nor is it contemptible. But as with most of history, it is the history I relate. Occasionally my opinion is obvious, but it is rarely discussed. I do this on several subjects that I have studied in depth.

GKC

 

[GKC]

GKC-

I understand what you’re saying here, but I am still interested in hearing your answer to the question. Let me rephrase it this way:

If it was “okay” for Henry to break communion with Rome in order to protect his own interests, would it be equally acceptable for someone to break fellowship with Canterbury for their own personal interests?

And the answer is not one I’m interested in discussing. Do reflect that I am not in communion with Canterbury.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[Randy_Carson]

And the answer is not one I’m interested in discussing. Do reflect that I am not in communion with Canterbury.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

Ah. Well, the absence of a religious affiliation in your public profile left me in the dark…and that is by design.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This is true, and sometimes overlooked. Porvoo Communion is a dramatic level of unity among Lutherans and Anglicans, though, and I say this without malice, the Lutheran synods and state Churches involved tend to be from the more liberal wing of Lutheranism, who look at doctrine and the confessions in a different way than confessional Lutherans do.

For Anglo-Catholics and confessional Lutherans (Evangelical Catholics), the task is a bit more difficult, because both groups tend to hold doctrine in a stricter way than our more liberal brethren. GKC and I have openly mused about this on CAF before.

Jon

I may be incorrect but I don’t know of two other Christian denominations that are more aligned and in full communion that Anglicans and Lutherans. Perhaps someone else can identify other church bodies as closely associated; it would be an interesting question.

As far as Anglo Catholic and Evangelical Catholic, these designation really have nothing to do with specific dioceses or synods. Within the Episcopal church there are many very ‘Catholic’ parishes that consider themselves “Anglo-Catholic”. Those Episcopalians who have either left the TEC or have always been associated with another Anglican body are not necessarily “Anglo-Catholic”. In-fact I would venture to say that both groups have equal numbers of ‘low church’ and ‘high church’ parishes.

The term, “Evangelical Catholic” has similar characteristics that don’t apply exclusively to any particular Lutheran synod or diocese. Probably the most ‘catholic-like’ Lutherans are those in Europe who, for the most part, are associated with Provoo and are the national churches of Lutheranism. In North America, it can be argued that the ELCA & Lutheran Church of Canada are the most “evangelical catholic” since they are episcopal in governance and have Apostolic Succession. As a former LCMS, I know fully well that a good number of parishes, especially here in the Northeast, are strongly ‘evangelical catholic’ in worship but are not ecumenical-minded and follow congregational polity similar to some other Protestant denominations.

 

[GKC]

Ah. Well, the absence of a religious affiliation in your public profile left me in the dark…and that is by design.

A conclusion like that is imprudent, given what little you might know of me. It was not a matter of design, it was a matter of indifference. When I first joined the board, I paid no attention to such details. Still don’t.Those folk (and few of them are visible nowadays, I suspect I’m pretty much* terra incognito* to most now) who I recognize as posting with me over past 9+ years I would fully expect to know that I’m an Anglican, traditionalist, of the Anglican Continuum, posterus traditus Anglicanus. The only time I get a kick out of not having posted an affiliation is when I get taken for a RC, in discussions with atheists/anti-Catholic types. Happens often, on another board. Where I’ve never posted my affiliation either, and where my board icon was given me by a RC board member. Neat looking, too. Not something I bother with, but appreciate.

“Do not jump to conclusions” is a wise maxim.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I may be incorrect but I don’t know of two other Christian denominations that are more aligned and in full communion that Anglicans and Lutherans. Perhaps someone else can identify other church bodies as closely associated; it would be an interesting question.

As far as Anglo Catholic and Evangelical Catholic, these designation really have nothing to do with specific dioceses or synods. Within the Episcopal church there are many very ‘Catholic’ parishes that consider themselves “Anglo-Catholic”. Those Episcopalians who have either left the TEC or have always been associated with another Anglican body are not necessarily “Anglo-Catholic”. In-fact I would venture to say that both groups have equal numbers of ‘low church’ and ‘high church’ parishes.

The term, “Evangelical Catholic” has similar characteristics that don’t apply exclusively to any particular Lutheran synod or diocese. Probably the most ‘catholic-like’ Lutherans are those in Europe who, for the most part, are associated with Provoo and are the national churches of Lutheranism. In North America, it can be argued that the ELCA & Lutheran Church of Canada are the most “evangelical catholic” since they are episcopal in governance and have Apostolic Succession. As a former LCMS, I know fully well that a good number of parishes, especially here in the Northeast, are strongly ‘evangelical catholic’ in worship but are not ecumenical-minded and follow congregational polity similar to some other Protestant denominations.

The Continuum was historically skewed toward the AC side. The ACNA is more evenly divided.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

I may be incorrect but I don’t know of two other Christian denominations that are more aligned and in full communion that Anglicans and Lutherans. Perhaps someone else can identify other church bodies as closely associated; it would be an interesting question.

As far as Anglo Catholic and Evangelical Catholic, these designation really have nothing to do with specific dioceses or synods. Within the Episcopal church there are many very ‘Catholic’ parishes that consider themselves “Anglo-Catholic”. Those Episcopalians who have either left the TEC or have always been associated with another Anglican body are not necessarily “Anglo-Catholic”. In-fact I would venture to say that both groups have equal numbers of ‘low church’ and ‘high church’ parishes.

The term, “Evangelical Catholic” has similar characteristics that don’t apply exclusively to any particular Lutheran synod or diocese. Probably the most ‘catholic-like’ Lutherans are those in Europe who, for the most part, are associated with Provoo and are the national churches of Lutheranism. ** In North America, it can be argued that the ELCA & Lutheran Church of Canada are the most “evangelical catholic” since they are episcopal in governance and have Apostolic Succession.** As a former LCMS, I know fully well that a good number of parishes, especially here in the Northeast, are strongly ‘evangelical catholic’ in worship but are not ecumenical-minded and follow congregational polity similar to some other Protestant denominations.

It can be argued, but I’m not convinced that AS is the determining factor of what is and is not evangelical catholic, particularly with the concerns surrounding female ordination.

As for the LCMS/ILC being not ecumenically-minded, I think you will find this is no longer necessarily the case.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

**It can be argued, but I’m not convinced that AS is the determining factor of what is and is not evangelical catholic, particularly with the concerns surrounding female ordination. **

As for the LCMS/ILC being not ecumenically-minded, I think you will find this is no longer necessarily the case.

Jon

Of-course, I agree that episcopacy and apostolic succession are, by no means, a determining factor of Lutheran catholicity. In-fact, we are indifferent on these issues which is somewhat ironic since Anglicans can trace the recovery of AS because of association with Lutherans.

But the strong movement of Anglican and Lutheran full communion is leading toward unification, without a doubt. For Lutherans, those most engaged in ecumenical efforts, especially with Roman Catholics, are those who have episcopacy/ apostolic succession.

 

[Randy_Carson]

A conclusion like that is imprudent, given what little you might know of me. It was not a matter of design, it was a matter of indifference. When I first joined the board, I paid no attention to such details. Still don’t.Those folk (and few of them are visible nowadays, I suspect I’m pretty much* terra incognito* to most now) who I recognize as posting with me over past 9+ years I would fully expect to know that I’m an Anglican, traditionalist, of the Anglican Continuum, posterus traditus Anglicanus. The only time I get a kick out of not having posted an affiliation is when I get taken for a RC, in discussions with atheists/anti-Catholic types. Happens often, on another board. Where I’ve never posted my affiliation either, and where my board icon was given me by a RC board member. Neat looking, too. Not something I bother with, but appreciate.

“Do not jump to conclusions” is a wise maxim.

GKC

GKC-

C’mon…the space is blank and you have left it that way for a long time. As noted above, you kinda relish the ambiguity. So, it has been a conscious decision to leave your formal religious affiliation uncertain for those that do not know you.

So, while it was matter of indifference initially, it IS a matter of design now. Otherwise, you would take a moment now to state your position more clearly.

Just sayin’.

 

[GKC]

GKC-

C’mon…the space is blank and you have left it that way for a long time. As noted above, you kinda relish the ambiguity. So, it has been a conscious decision to leave your formal religious affiliation uncertain for those that do not know you.

So, while it was matter of indifference initially, it IS a matter of design now. Otherwise, you would take a moment now to state your position more clearly.

Just sayin’.

Just sayin’…wrongly. I state my position regularly, as required. Your conclusions are your own. Enjoy them.

GKC

 

[Randy_Carson]

Just sayin’…wrongly. I state my position regularly, as required. Your conclusions are your own. Enjoy them.

GKC

 

[hn160]

I think that that for the confessional Lutheran Synods to possibly unify with some Angelican groups it would have to be in keeping with Scripture and the key parts of the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. For example woman ordination, the TEC and the Church of England both ordain women, the TEC has woman bishops and the C of E will soon have them and the same goes for homosexual ordination. I think that the office of bishop is not a big deal for the confessional Lutherans. The big issues are baptism and the Lord’s Supper and what they mean. Angelican can have a broad meaning in their beliefs.

 

[GKC]

I think that that for the confessional Lutheran Synods to possibly unify with some Angelican groups it would have to be in keeping with Scripture and the key parts of the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. For example woman ordination, the TEC and the Church of England both ordain women, the TEC has woman bishops and the C of E will soon have them and the same goes for homosexual ordination. I think that the office of bishop is not a big deal for the confessional Lutherans. The big issues are baptism and the Lord’s Supper and what they mean. Angelican can have a broad meaning in their beliefs.

Motley.

GKC

 

[hn160]

Motley.

GKC

???

 

[GKC]

???

My usual description of Anglicans. A motley crew. Or, a broad range in their beliefs.

GKC

 

[hn160]

My usual description of Anglicans. A motley crew. Or, a broad range in their beliefs.

GKC

You are right. Their theology is an inch deep and a mile wide.

 

[cmodrmac]

I thought this thread was about Lutherans and Anglicans uniting-they have -they share full communion (at least ECUSA and the Evangelical Lutherans) the evangelical Lutheran Church is not to be confused with the Evangelical Catholics of the Missouri Synod"""

Some interesting comments in the posts:
Lutherans of the Missouri Synod -identify as “evangelical Catholics”

King Henry never heard a mass but in Latin (? how do we know) is this so?

was there not still Catholic aristocrats such as the Duke of Norfolk (a recusant) around when Henry was breaking with Rome -? I believe the Duke is the Senior Duke in GB

If the Lutherans are viewed as heretics by Rome and the Anglicans as Schismatics -do Rome perceive any difference in these 2 categories? probably does not matter as RC will not accept female CLergy

 

[House_Harkonnen]

The liberal Lutheran denomination the ELCA is already in full communion with the Episcopal Church. The more conservative Lutheran synods are VERY concern about maintaining their doctrinal purity, so unity with the liberal Episcopal Church is not really even on the radar.

 

[GKC]

I thought this thread was about Lutherans and Anglicans uniting-they have -they share full communion (at least ECUSA and the Evangelical Lutherans) the evangelical Lutheran Church is not to be confused with the Evangelical Catholics of the Missouri Synod"""

Some interesting comments in the posts:
Lutherans of the Missouri Synod -identify as “evangelical Catholics”

King Henry never heard a mass but in Latin (? how do we know) is this so?

was there not still Catholic aristocrats such as the Duke of Norfolk (a recusant) around when Henry was breaking with Rome -? I believe the Duke is the Senior Duke in GB

If the Lutherans are viewed as heretics by Rome and the Anglicans as Schismatics -do Rome perceive any difference in these 2 categories? probably does not matter as RC will not accept female CLergy

Yes, Henry never heard a Mass in the vernacular. Without checking, I’m fairly certain that Scarisbrick’s bio, the standard one, mentions this. Certainly I have seen it in other bios.
Henry directed that the Mass be translated into English, but only a small portion of it was completed before his death.

Not sure what your point, re: Norfolk might be, but technically, at the time Henry began his break with Rome, the highest raking peer was his illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset.
GKC

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I was going to make a similar topic asking a question to Anglicans and Lutherans but I suppose I’ll just ask here.

I am an Evangelical Protestant who will be starting RCIA in October and there was one main thing that kept me out of the Anglican Church (even though I was baptized Anglican as an enfant) and it’s the history. Does anyone deny that the original break from the CC by king Henry was for his own personal interests? We know that he wanted to divorce Catherine and marry Anne Boelyn thus starting his own Church. So my question is, how does one who wants to join an Apostolic Church choose one that was created for selfish reasons?

As for Lutherans, (and this is specifically for me, so don’t take this as a hit on your religion) how does one take a spiritual belief named after a man? To be a Lutheran I then take on Luther’s name in my identity. Why choose a belief named after a man, instead of the universal belief that existed 1500 years before?

This is simply an observers point of view who had to choose between Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran.

As for Lutherans, (and this is specifically for me, so don’t take this as a hit on your religion) how does one take a spiritual belief named after a man? To be a Lutheran I then take on Luther’s name in my identity. Why choose a belief named after a man, instead of the universal belief that existed 1500 years before?

To be fair, “Lutheran” was a name given to us by other people. No early Lutherans deemed themselves “Lutheran” preferring to be titled “Evangelical Catholics”. This is true of many groups, for example Methodists, Calvinists, Mormons, etc. The names were given by opponents, and simply stuck.