What is Lord Jesus?

[javid]

Saint Augustin said: “Understanding is the reward given by belief. Do not try to understand so that you may believe, but believe so that you may understand.”

Would you please give me a refrence for this quote?

Faith comes first, although we are incapable of completely understanding God, as He is infinite and we are finite.
We receive new bodies at the resurrection - by God’s command.
Mankind cannot be saved by mankind. Only God can save mankind. But, God chose to allow His Son to take flesh for our salvation. But, then Jesus would no longer be God unless He kept His divine nature while also assuming a human nature. To be God, and to be man, Jesus had to have both natures. This is simply God’s plan that has been revealed to mankind. We cannot understand it completely, as we are simply creations. We take it on faith that this is how God chose to do things.

Mind can’t understand some things and can’t accept some things. My mind can’t accept one being can exist with Incompatible traits. If I can accept it is possible, I can accept it by faith, But can’t think that one being can exist with Incompatible traits: visible and invisble, needless and needy,…

Yes, I accepted it by faith, but I want accept it by reasons, too,

 

[po18guy]

Would you please give me a refrence for this quote?

It is in the vast body of Augustinian writings, but my reference came from The Essential Wisdom of the Saints, edited by Carol Kelly-Gangi.

Mind can’t understand some things and can’t accept some things. My mind can’t accept one being can exist with Incompatible traits. If I can accept it is possible, I can accept it by faith, But can’t think that one being can exist with Incompatible traits: visible and invisble, needless and needy,…

Do you believe in yourself? You are both visible (body) and invisible (soul). Both coexist in one being.

Yes, I accepted it by faith, but I want accept it by reasons, too,

Saint Thomas Aquinas is a rather complex and theologically challenging author, but he synthesized faith and reason as well as any man ever has. Perhaps something from Prof. Peter Kreeft, like the Handbook of Christian Apologetics?

 

[javid]

Do you believe in yourself? You are both visible (body) and invisible (soul). Both coexist in one being.

This is different. soul and body are not one being, but Lord Jesus is one being. It is no problem with two things: one is visible and other is invisible. But Lord Jesus is not two! Orthodoxy says we have only one Jesus, not two. So, He must be invisble(because according to the new testament God is invisible) but people saw him. It is Paradoxically!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Just a thought, folks…

It does not appear that English is Javid’s first language, so be careful about word choices and definitions. This will help him to understand better.

 

[petra22]

I will admit that I had to look up your term (which, FWIW, you seem to have misspelled). The primary definition of “quiddities,” for the benefit of others reading this thread, is:

Humans share some “natural” traits with God. Humans are compassionate by nature (if you believe John Locke over Thomas Hobbs). Humans, by large, do not find joy in the suffering of other humans (especially innocent and disadvantaged humans, such as children and the poor).

So there is no reason to question our Lord’s Hypostatic Union (the union of his human and divine natures) based on those attributes normally associated with both natures, such as compassion for the disadvantaged innocent. But, what about those traits that are strongly associated with humans, but not with God? Such as the seven deadly sins.

BUT, are those sins really part of human nature? Is it possible for a human to resist (for example), greed? If it is possible, then this proclivity is NOT part of human nature (because a creature cannot resist its own “essential” nature - that’s what “essential nature” means - of the essence, and we cannot resist our own essence).

Is it POSSIBLE for a person to live an entire life without committing ANY of those evils? Or, is it possible for a human, by an act of desire, to decide at some point, that s/he will no longer be subject to ANY of them?

In other words, is it possible for a human to overcome ALL attraction to ALL sin while living on earth? The Church calls this state “spiritual perfection,” and the Church has canonized and recognized three Doctors of the Church for teaching exactly this.

Sin is NOT PART of our essential human nature. Humans can overcome all attraction to sinful behavior while yet living on earth. Many Catholic Saints have done so.

So, sin is a stain upon our human nature, but it is not a PART of it. Jesus could adopt our human nature without also adopting its stain. There is thus no conflict between the human and divine nature of Our Lord. The two natures are completely compatible with each other.

Thanks for this explanation. It makes perfect sense the way you wrote it!!!

 

[TimothyH]

The Second Person of the Trinity is divine. He took on a human nature and became Jesus.

The omnipotent, divine God willed to take on the nature of humanity. Two natures - call them whatever you want. It was his will that it happen.

A tree can’t will to take on another nature. God can.

-Tim-

 

[Nita]

Hi,

It said that Lord Jesus has to natures: God and Human.

Be God and be Human, it depends on Quidity, not natures & one being can’t have two quidities. What was the quidity of Lord Jesus?

I would say the quiddity of our Lord Jesus is God incarnate.

You may find the writings of Aquinas helpful. Altho if you have not read his works before, it may be a little difficult at first.
newadvent.org/summa/4002.htm#article1

 

[porthos11]

Hi,

It said that Lord Jesus has to natures: God and Human.

Be God and be Human, it depends on Quidity, not natures & one being can’t have two quidities. What was the quidity of Lord Jesus?

I think this is the defective premise, that one being can’t have two quiddities. As a matter of fact, while this is true for pretty much everything, this is not true for Jesus. He DOES in fact have two quiddities, true God and true Man. So when one asks about Jesus’ quiddity, orthodoxy requires us to answer along these lines:

True God and True Man.
God Incarnate
The Word made flesh

or something ike that. If one were to ask. “What is Jesus?” If the answer were:

God: this would be correct.
Man: this would be correct.
God and Man: this would also be correct
God only: not correct.
Man only: not correct.

 

[po18guy]

This is different. soul and body are not one being, but Lord Jesus is one being. It is no problem with two things: one is visible and other is invisible. But Lord Jesus is not two! Orthodoxy says we have only one Jesus, not two. So, He must be invisble(because according to the new testament God is invisible) but people saw him. It is Paradoxically!

Well, God is pure spirit, but He can choose, by his own power, to join Himself to a human body. He does not become less of a God if He does this. Nor does the human body become less human.

If you add milk to coffee, you do not change the substance of the coffee. Neither do you change the substance of the milk. A scientist can tell you that both coffee and milk are in your cup. Yet, the coffee and milk cannot be separated. The milk is still 100% milk and the coffee is still 100% coffee, but they have been combined and cannot be separated. Coffee and milk. Human and Divine.

 

[M1Garand]

I am still struggling with the analogy that wood is not tree. Of course wood is tree. In fact just because it does not look like tree when its made into a table does not change its chemical and genetic make up. No it is no longer planted in soil and sprouting leaves but its fundamental elemental make up does not become something else just because it is now a table. The make up of the thing is still wood. If you put the tree in the ground it will in time in the right conditions become rock so its nature can change. It just cant be rock and wood at the same time.

You presuppose that God had two natures in your example when in fact God and Man in Christ is for him only one nature with two expressions. God is not alien. Just as humans have one nature with two expressions, mortal human immortal soul. If you wish to view this as multiple natures then the existence of the multiple natures disproving the hypothesis that something can not have two natures. If you believe Jesus is all made up like the tooth fairy and God is a wizard in the sky then we are at an impasse.

 

[Nita]

I am still struggling with the analogy that wood is not tree. Of course wood is tree. In fact just because it does not look like tree when its made into a table does not change its chemical and genetic make up. No it is no longer planted in soil and sprouting leaves but its fundamental elemental make up does not become something else just because it is now a table. The make up of the thing is still wood. If you put the tree in the ground it will in time in the right conditions become rock so its nature can change. It just cant be rock and wood at the same time.

You presuppose that God had two natures in your example when in fact God and Man in Christ is for him only one nature with two expressions. God is not alien. Just as humans have one nature with two expressions, mortal human immortal soul. If you wish to view this as multiple natures then the existence of the multiple natures disproving the hypothesis that something can not have two natures. If you believe Jesus is all made up like the tooth fairy and God is a wizard in the sky then we are at an impasse.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #467
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1K.HTM

467 The Monophysites affirmed that the human nature had ceased to exist as such in Christ when the divine person of God’s Son assumed it. Faced with this heresy, the fourth ecumenical council, at Chalcedon in 451, confessed:
Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; “like us in all things but sin”. He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.91

We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. the distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.92

 

[DavidFilmer]

Fascinating post

Could you guide me to any references within Catholicism that points to sin not being part of our essentail human nature please?

Well, as you probably know, Adam and Eve were created with human natures free from sin. God did not create sin within human nature, but he allowed Adam and Eve free choice (as he allows us all). They could have chosen to follow God’s will (as can we all), but they did not.

The Church teaches on this concept rather extensively in the Vatican-2 decree Gaudium et Spes. The entire document is recommended reading, but unfortunately it does not include a short “sound bite” for me to cite here. Probably the closest I can come to something concise is:

In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged.(9) Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths.(10) In a wonderful manner conscience reveals that law which is fulfilled by love of God and neighbor. GS 16]

The Council goes on to note:

He Who is “the image of the invisible God” (Col. 1:15), is Himself the perfect man. To the sons of Adam He restores the divine likeness which had been disfigured from the first sin onward. Since human nature as He assumed it was not annulled, by that very fact it has been raised up to a divine dignity in our respect too. GS 22]

 

[Servant19]

Well, as you probably know, Adam and Eve were created with human natures free from sin. God did not create sin within human nature, but he allowed Adam and Eve free choice (as he allows us all). They could have chosen to follow God’s will (as can we all), but they did not.

The Church teaches on this concept rather extensively in the Vatican-2 decree Gaudium et Spes. The entire document is recommended reading, but unfortunately it does not include a short “sound bite” for me to cite here. Probably the closest I can come to something concise is:

The Council goes on to note:

This is a wonderful learning for me David. I will be sure to read the Vatican 2 decree

Eternal thankyous for addressing this question, and God bless you!

 

[petra22]

So humanity is a subset of divinity (and divinity goes both ways). There is nothing incompatible between divine and human nature, but human nature is a limited subset of divine nature. Thus, a being (such as Jesus) could fully possess a divine nature, and (by definition) fully possess a subset of the divine nature, which we call human nature (any PORTION of the divine nature that is shared by humanity is common to both natures, and Jesus could obviously possess this portion of the whole that he already possessed).

Hey, nobody here disagrees!

Wow! I thought I was back in Math class for a second. I love it. The logic! Even though logic isn’t my strong suit!

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is different. soul and body are not one being, but Lord Jesus is one being. It is no problem with two things: one is visible and other is invisible. But Lord Jesus is not two! Orthodoxy says we have only one Jesus, not two. So, He must be invisble(because according to the new testament God is invisible) but people saw him. It is Paradoxically!

The Soul and the Body are not beings: they are things. Only when the soul is joined to a body does the result become a living being.

Jesus is one living being with two natures: a human nature and a divine nature. He also has two wills, one human and one divine.

 

[javid]

The Soul and the Body are not beings: they are things. Only when the soul is joined to a body does the result become a living being.

Jesus is one living being with two natures: a human nature and a divine nature. He also has two wills, one human and one divine.

I think I must use the wrod Essence. What is Lord Jesus’ Essence?

I’m trying the word that Explains what is a being, It seems I can’t find a true word. Let me ask a question: Three persons of trinity have same what? Same Essence? What the word we must use?

 

[porthos11]

Same substance. Or to be technical about it, same ousia (Greek; translated as “substance” in English). In fact, there was a whole argument about the Greek terminology: the orthodox “homoousios”, same substance vs. the heretical “homoiousios”, similar substance. This is also where the expression “does not make an iota of difference” comes from, except the iota here made a whole difference.

 

[javid]

Same substance. Or to be technical about it, same ousia (Greek; translated as “substance” in English). In fact, there was a whole argument about the Greek terminology: the orthodox “homoousios”, same substance vs. the heretical “homoiousios”, similar substance. This is also where the expression “does not make an iota of difference” comes from, except the iota here made a whole difference.

OK. Thanks.

What is Lord Jesus’ substance? or What is his ousia?

If he is a God in substance, why he didn’t have God’s traits? For example, No man has seen or can see the God(1 Tim6:16), But people could see Lord Jesus.(According to NT)

 

[porthos11]

OK. Thanks.

What is Lord Jesus’ substance? or What is his ousia?

If he is a God in substance, why he didn’t have God’s traits? For example, No man has seen or can see the God(1 Tim6:16), But people could see Lord Jesus.(According to NT)

His ousia is the same as that of God the Father. And yes, he has God’s traits.

But since the Incarnation, he also has a human ousia. When people see Jesus, they are seeing him in his humanity. Yes, they are indeed seeing God, because the Person is divine and has a divine substance or ousia. But Jesus is also fully man, and man is visible.

By the virtue of communicatio idiomatum, it can indeed be truthfully said that no one has ever seen God, because God’s substance is not visible to human eyes. But by the same communication of idiom, because Jesus is man, he can of course be seen, so it can also be said that the God became visible to us.

So again, back to your original question: what is the quiddity of Jesus? God and man. Your initial premise that Jesus cannot have two quiddities is faulty, because orthodox Christian teaching is that Jesus indeed has indeed two quiddities. What is Jesus? He is God. What is Jesus? He is man.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think I must use the wrod Essence. What is Lord Jesus’ Essence?

I’m trying the word that Explains what is a being, It seems I can’t find a true word. Let me ask a question: Three persons of trinity have same what? Same Essence? What the word we must use?

The same nature.